Egg banjos bounced by sarnie barmy army
Not standing up when Commanders enter the room? Sod the adjutant, it is the Commanders themselves who should be gripping this, one bollocking about the issue and word soon gets round.
When I was in the UOTC - one of our CO (Dragoons ) came into the lecture room, I'd straight away spy him and leap of my chair and call the others to attention he would then motion me down with "Peace Peace peace" lol
Even when our adjt walked into the room, as soon as he sensed some1 was about to leap to attention, be motioned down before a whole classroom would jump...at worst 2 or 3 of us would be on our feet, at best ......none
Interesting enough if anyone remembers Episode 2 "Officers and Gentlemen " of Fighter Pilot, when the Regt SNCO entered on the first day, everyone got off the chairs to the female voice announcing room attention. The Rock Ape marched to the podium and everyone sat down. He said the first lesson was no one should stand to attention due to the noise of the chairs scraping back and disturbing the rest of the building but sit in the brace position.
Even when our adjt walked into the room, as soon as he sensed some1 was about to leap to attention, be motioned down before a whole classroom would jump...at worst 2 or 3 of us would be on our feet, at best ......none
Interesting enough if anyone remembers Episode 2 "Officers and Gentlemen " of Fighter Pilot, when the Regt SNCO entered on the first day, everyone got off the chairs to the female voice announcing room attention. The Rock Ape marched to the podium and everyone sat down. He said the first lesson was no one should stand to attention due to the noise of the chairs scraping back and disturbing the rest of the building but sit in the brace position.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Isle of Man
Age: 73
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps slight thread drift but has anyone, anywhere, got a copy of the semi-legendary 'Stradling' - much quoted and spoken of at Cranwell in the early 70's but I never actually saw one. I've managed to find one chapter online but nothing else despite several Googlings.
For those not familiar with it, 'Customs of the Service' by Gp Capt Stradling was the guide to etiquette. It included rules on what to wear on a Saturday when off base, when and to whom to raise your civvy hat, the etiquette of 'calling', when to arrive and leave various social functions (5 mins late for private dinner in case the hostess had been delayed), tipping your batman and so on.
It was all quite antiquated but nonetheless sound advice and, even today, I still abide by some of the rules!
For those not familiar with it, 'Customs of the Service' by Gp Capt Stradling was the guide to etiquette. It included rules on what to wear on a Saturday when off base, when and to whom to raise your civvy hat, the etiquette of 'calling', when to arrive and leave various social functions (5 mins late for private dinner in case the hostess had been delayed), tipping your batman and so on.
It was all quite antiquated but nonetheless sound advice and, even today, I still abide by some of the rules!
mad jock,
Same here, and I've brought my kids up the same way. However as I get older I seem to have a slight anarchic streak that seems to question some of these things, as I say standards because they are standards, not for any practical reason.
Same here, and I've brought my kids up the same way. However as I get older I seem to have a slight anarchic streak that seems to question some of these things, as I say standards because they are standards, not for any practical reason.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very good headline by original poster....
You've only got to walk in any UK urban environ and see how many people eat fast food with their unwashed hands in the street - they are absolutely encouraged to do so. We also live in the age of handheld communication. Young people, very young people are speaking and communicating in almost a different language and this will increase.
Its only ever going to be so that these behavioural patterns will follow into the Services.
I'm not saying its a good thing but get with the zeitgeist and all that.
On some of his points he seems a bit dated, which is why the leaked article is attracting such attention.
What about using the aircrew feeders on carriers?... they weren't being slobs, just practical.
He's going to become a very exasperated man very soon if he goes on with it... he's trying to go back to the olden days and theyve gone, and not coming back.
* The navigator story on "Invincible" I was told where the navvy railed against one of the stewards for putting baked beans on the Officers Bridge menu (oh yes)...this story went around like wildfire and just made the man look snobbish and rather arrogant.(Baked beans were deemed only suitable for the sailors).
Its only ever going to be so that these behavioural patterns will follow into the Services.
I'm not saying its a good thing but get with the zeitgeist and all that.
On some of his points he seems a bit dated, which is why the leaked article is attracting such attention.
What about using the aircrew feeders on carriers?... they weren't being slobs, just practical.
He's going to become a very exasperated man very soon if he goes on with it... he's trying to go back to the olden days and theyve gone, and not coming back.
* The navigator story on "Invincible" I was told where the navvy railed against one of the stewards for putting baked beans on the Officers Bridge menu (oh yes)...this story went around like wildfire and just made the man look snobbish and rather arrogant.(Baked beans were deemed only suitable for the sailors).
GOOD GRIEF!!
Free world warriors really care about eating sandwiches in the officer's mess?
Next thing you know they will be wiping their hands on their carefully pressed camouflage battle dress uniforms. Tell me this is not the Boy Scouts.
Next thing you know they will be wiping their hands on their carefully pressed camouflage battle dress uniforms. Tell me this is not the Boy Scouts.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
At the risk of damaging my green house, but since the thread is about etiquette:
Or murdering apostrophes.
And Global Nav, which is the officer of whose mess you are referring? the officer's mess?
Tin hat, coat, scarf
It isn't the eating of the sandwich's, or banjo's, bacon butties which is the issue, its the environment which you are eating them in. I presume Sir doesn't have a problem with said items when consumed on the range served up by either the slop jockeys or the Naffi wagon. His objection is when he enters a respectable area possibly with guests and he comes across the picture of people shovelling food off there plates into there mouths with there hand or worse not having a plate full stop.
And Global Nav, which is the officer of whose mess you are referring? the officer's mess?
Tin hat, coat, scarf
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,025
Received 2,902 Likes
on
1,243 Posts
"Yes... they feed us well, Bread with an assortment of delicious fillings..... the problem is someone forgot the cutlery old chap, bad form what!"
@ Pontius. My mistake. Perhaps not an officer's mess at all.
But still. Warriors eat there, am I correct? And if so, what harm or offense can be imagined over eating with one's hands? Unless there is nothing more important to trouble one's mind with?
For the sake of true warriors' welfare, I might be concerned over the quality and quantity of the victuals, the atmosphere within which to enjoy them amongst one's comrades, and the quality of the beverages with which to wash it all down and lubricate the conversation. The wives club, or senior officers (much the same actually) might have other priorities, I suppose. Morale is such a subjective thing.
But still. Warriors eat there, am I correct? And if so, what harm or offense can be imagined over eating with one's hands? Unless there is nothing more important to trouble one's mind with?
For the sake of true warriors' welfare, I might be concerned over the quality and quantity of the victuals, the atmosphere within which to enjoy them amongst one's comrades, and the quality of the beverages with which to wash it all down and lubricate the conversation. The wives club, or senior officers (much the same actually) might have other priorities, I suppose. Morale is such a subjective thing.
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
The late Pere Artist was OOD one weekend in HMS Hound, or some such corvette-sized ship of the line in about 1954. He was a regular Seaman officer and one of the last to join BRNC aged 13.
An RNR officer joined the ship for a week of sea-training. The officer was of humble birth and somewhat fazed by the massed array of cutlery that faced him for dinner on Sunday evening in the wardroom. There were no other officers aboard.
"Don't worry" said Pere Artist. Follow me and you'll be fine.
Imagine PA's embarrassment when they both reached the cheese course with only a dessert fork and a teaspoon.
PA told the story against himself for many years afterwards. He too was of fairly humble birth but made Commodore, while his sister was a GP and a JP.
An RNR officer joined the ship for a week of sea-training. The officer was of humble birth and somewhat fazed by the massed array of cutlery that faced him for dinner on Sunday evening in the wardroom. There were no other officers aboard.
"Don't worry" said Pere Artist. Follow me and you'll be fine.
Imagine PA's embarrassment when they both reached the cheese course with only a dessert fork and a teaspoon.
PA told the story against himself for many years afterwards. He too was of fairly humble birth but made Commodore, while his sister was a GP and a JP.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Canada
Age: 77
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At OCTU the only thing we were told about table etiquette was "salt should be piled at the side of your plate- you don't see HRH shaking her salt on her food like a truck driver" - we certainly didn't get 'practice eating' sessions like shown in Fighter Pilot or as practiced (I'm told) at Cranwell.
Standing for senior officers- ONCE on the sqn, at friday gnd training, boss walks in, jr officers stand, wheels sit kibbutzing. Boss reams out all of us, goes out "lets try this again properly". There was no repeat offense- ever. Visited another squadron on detachment- they didn't stand for their boss, which we considered very poor form (we stood up-much embarrassment).
Finger food- I would have starved to death if we hadn't had fried egg or chip or even chocolate sauce buttees for lunch on the sqn. Only once got to eat lunch in the mess. I was very refined though- I ate my buttees with my flying gloves on, so as not to get germs. We did however always carry a plastic fork on exercise, in the goonsuit shoulder pen pocket in lieu of a chinagraph.
Standing for senior officers- ONCE on the sqn, at friday gnd training, boss walks in, jr officers stand, wheels sit kibbutzing. Boss reams out all of us, goes out "lets try this again properly". There was no repeat offense- ever. Visited another squadron on detachment- they didn't stand for their boss, which we considered very poor form (we stood up-much embarrassment).
Finger food- I would have starved to death if we hadn't had fried egg or chip or even chocolate sauce buttees for lunch on the sqn. Only once got to eat lunch in the mess. I was very refined though- I ate my buttees with my flying gloves on, so as not to get germs. We did however always carry a plastic fork on exercise, in the goonsuit shoulder pen pocket in lieu of a chinagraph.
There was a famous practice lunch at Watton in about 65/66 prior to the Abandoned Earl presenting Standards to 97,98 and 115 Sqns. The alcohol-fuelled practice went so badly that the Stn Cdr decreed it would be re-run at 1700, sans alcohol
Pontius Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The general is right to give at least pause for thought. Any army returning from extended periods of action needs to remember its roots and ethos - or cue lots of ".. huh, we never did this in Helmund".
Sometimes, to rediscover the baseline, he has to cast his net widely to get a few nibbles in return, rewind to the mid 80s and I imagine he would have been a JO of the type currently in his own sights, such is the effect that time served and tradition has on shoulders.
But why did he have to bring it up, doesn't he have a chain of command entrusted to keep things in line? The snitchy oik that couldn't see what this was about either, needs to reflect. Is the general anachronistic? I don't think so.. what's so wrong with standing up when a Commanding Officer enters the room?
The sarnies and sticky fingers tirade might be the shock tactic. At least I hope it is. I used to love mid morning marmite on toast at Larkhill.
Sometimes, to rediscover the baseline, he has to cast his net widely to get a few nibbles in return, rewind to the mid 80s and I imagine he would have been a JO of the type currently in his own sights, such is the effect that time served and tradition has on shoulders.
But why did he have to bring it up, doesn't he have a chain of command entrusted to keep things in line? The snitchy oik that couldn't see what this was about either, needs to reflect. Is the general anachronistic? I don't think so.. what's so wrong with standing up when a Commanding Officer enters the room?
The sarnies and sticky fingers tirade might be the shock tactic. At least I hope it is. I used to love mid morning marmite on toast at Larkhill.
The same old fart brass hats that lament the fact that young ones don't behave properly in the mess, are also the same old farts that were responsible for absolutely gutting service support of mess amenities.
The privileges of mess life as an officer are part of the recompense of the responsibilities inherent in holding a Queen's commission. I know that sounds elitist but I don't care.
Making supper at an officers mess like eating at a down market family restaurant means the service has lost any moral authority to demand the behavior that is implicit when sitting down to dine in the civilized setting that used to characterize mess life.
The privileges of mess life as an officer are part of the recompense of the responsibilities inherent in holding a Queen's commission. I know that sounds elitist but I don't care.
Making supper at an officers mess like eating at a down market family restaurant means the service has lost any moral authority to demand the behavior that is implicit when sitting down to dine in the civilized setting that used to characterize mess life.
Politeness, good hygiene, etiquette certainly have their merits.
I'd prefer my commanders' attention be turned to the integrity and motivation of their officer corps, their competence, selflessness, and devotion to country.
I am retired now almost two decades and recall nought of the details of the mess. But what comes to mind about the "old days" are the priorities of commanders, good and bad, and the effect they have on the true quality of the fighting forces.
I'd prefer my commanders' attention be turned to the integrity and motivation of their officer corps, their competence, selflessness, and devotion to country.
I am retired now almost two decades and recall nought of the details of the mess. But what comes to mind about the "old days" are the priorities of commanders, good and bad, and the effect they have on the true quality of the fighting forces.
I think the General's rant is in part a reminder of the need for manners but is also over the top and out of touch and serves only to illustrate why so many people would not voluntarily move back into an Officers' Mess. I would love to see his reaction to canapes at the Annual Reception.
I'm not entirely sure what that means in this day and age, I certainly don't feel privileged to 'belong' to an institution that is run by largely appalling contractors who run the Mess purely for their own commercial gain and without any due regard for the members.
Big Pistons Forever is spot on. If the military wants the Mess to be something to inspire and for people to aspire to, they must first stop treating its members as cash cows and give people a reason to want to be part of a 'prestigious' organisation.
The privileges of mess life as an officer are part of the recompense of the responsibilities inherent in holding a Queen's commission.
Big Pistons Forever is spot on. If the military wants the Mess to be something to inspire and for people to aspire to, they must first stop treating its members as cash cows and give people a reason to want to be part of a 'prestigious' organisation.
Last edited by Melchett01; 5th Mar 2014 at 17:27.