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Voyager Plummets (Merged)

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Voyager Plummets (Merged)

Old 9th Feb 2017, 08:37
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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Distance dropped

Living abroad, I am only following the story via this thread and The Times. In the latter, it says the co-pilot was pinned to the ceiling for 29 seconds. So, he would have been experiencing less than -1 G, let's say -1.2, or about 38 feet per second squared. Assuming level flight to start, the vertical distance travelled ( dredging up A level Physics from 50 years ago, = 1/2a*t^2 or 19*841 which is about a 16000 foot descent. It also says it dropped more than 4000 feet in seconds.

I assume that the FDR gave a complete readout of the descent profile, is that in the public domain?
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 09:01
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Waddo Plumber View Post
Living abroad, I am only following the story via this thread and The Times. In the latter, it says the co-pilot was pinned to the ceiling for 29 seconds. So, he would have been experiencing less than -1 G, let's say -1.2, or about 38 feet per second squared. Assuming level flight to start, the vertical distance travelled ( dredging up A level Physics from 50 years ago, = 1/2a*t^2 or 19*841 which is about a 16000 foot descent. It also says it dropped more than 4000 feet in seconds.

I assume that the FDR gave a complete readout of the descent profile, is that in the public domain?
Yes - full report here: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-february-2014

FDR traces in Part 2
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 09:04
  #503 (permalink)  
 
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"...experiencing less than -1 G..."

Would it take that much? I think that anything on the negative side of 0g would send him (or any object) towards the ceiling.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 09:58
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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Vzlet, yes, I should have said -0.2, but I think the point is still correct. The plane (and the co pilot) have to be falling under gravity to make him weightless - ie accelerating down at 32 ft/sec^2. To pin him to the ceiling it has to be accelerating down slightly more, so I chose 20% more.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 11:29
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Waddo Plumber View Post
Vzlet, yes, I should have said -0.2, but I think the point is still correct. The plane (and the co pilot) have to be falling under gravity to make him weightless - ie accelerating down at 32 ft/sec^2. To pin him to the ceiling it has to be accelerating down slightly more, so I chose 20% more.
The narrative of events (in my link) states that the lowest value reached was -0.58g at the initial pitch input, and the maximum 2.06g in the recovery.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 15:20
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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That sounds completely reasonable, considering what happened. I just wonder how The Times heard that the co pilot was stuck to the ceiling for 29 seconds, the vomit Comet usually managed 25 seconds only just weightless and then only by flying parabolas.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 15:20
  #507 (permalink)  
 
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Best Wishes to the Aircraft Captain

I flew many hours with the Captain on VC10's as part of the front end operating crew. He was a true professional and I would have no qualms flying with him captaining an aircraft with myself as a passenger in the future. Hopefully he will not get hung out to dry, and the Court Martial see sense and get him back flying in the future.

Many threads mention how lucky they were to get away with something, this captain was unlucky, the aircraft system design should have prevented this occurrence.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 15:33
  #508 (permalink)  
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ON, by all accounts he was not unlucky, he also got away with the problem. The court martial is not about the incident per se from what I can gather here and in the press.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 15:34
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I flew many hours with the Captain on VC10's as part of the front end operating crew. He was a true professional and I would have no qualms flying with him captaining an aircraft with myself as a passenger in the future. Hopefully he will not get hung out to dry, and the Court Martial see sense and get him back flying in the future.

Many threads mention how lucky they were to get away with something, this captain was unlucky, the aircraft system design should have prevented this occurrence.
But I doubt Airbus recommend using the area around the side-stick as a parcel shelf . . .

Personally, I just wonder what this has cost. All the work done to try and find out why it happened, all the negative publicity, all the potential re-design plans.

The stick was pushed forward (apparently) and the aircraft pointed its nose down. Surely that IS the system design . . .

When I taught flight safety, I always said 'nice guys always get more opportunities to kill you than nasty bastards' . . . just a thought.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 15:55
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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ON
Luckily the aircraft worked as advertised and self recovered. As already stated this has nothing to do with the Captains abilties, although is definitely linked to his professional conduct, of which integrity plays a huge part.

Likewise I hope the CM sees sense but not with the result you hope for!
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 17:25
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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I'm quite concerned about what the 'impartial' S/L investigator did to the Co-Pilot re. not telling anyone and threatening to break his legs...that's not the standard of a 'Just Culture' and casts some doubt as to that S/L's ability to conduct investigations at all...(Ok it was in the Daily Fail, but...)

Invictus pilot tells how he saved a nose-diving plane | Daily Mail Online

Last edited by Hueymeister; 9th Feb 2017 at 18:27.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 20:01
  #512 (permalink)  
 
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If the Squadron Leader did threaten the copilot like that, then he's crazy. Nathan Jones is not only extremelt honest and trustworthy, but is also bigger and fitter than most Bronco Bulls.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 20:14
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Looks like two officers' careers could be ending based on that article.
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 21:04
  #514 (permalink)  
 
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Runaway Gun, Flt Lt Jones was badly injured in the incident so if we are to believe his evidence on oath then Sqn Ldr Giles threatened someone recovering from a severe back injury who was facing the loss of his flying career and the prospect of a life with severe mobility problems.

The more I read of this the more incredulous I am. I've never been a big believer in the Officer and Gentlemen bollocks I've meet some right idiots in my time. The one thing that always stood out however was the professionalism of RAF Aircrew especially when it came to honesty in order to prevent/improve etc. It seems I was a bit naive!
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Old 9th Feb 2017, 22:47
  #515 (permalink)  
 
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As [co-pilot] FLt Jones was preparing to give evidence [to the SI] told the court martial that Squadron Leader Nathan Giles - one of those investigating the incident - switched off the tape, grabbed him by the collar of his flying suit and said: “If you tell anyone about this I will break your ******* legs.
What, this guy: RAF co-pilot so badly injured in plane nosedive that he competed in Prince Harry's Invictus Games, trial hears

Wow. From what I have read Flt Lt Townshend is utterly deserving of a CM. What about Sqn Ldr Giles then?
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Old 10th Feb 2017, 05:44
  #516 (permalink)  
 
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Well, this one just got interesting. Will MoD deny this threat was made? Will the co-pilot then pull out his own recording, which he left running? Will MoD then deny the interview took place? It's all happened before.
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Old 10th Feb 2017, 07:50
  #517 (permalink)  
 
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I'll wait to hear from a more reliable source than the Daily Mail!
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Old 10th Feb 2017, 08:25
  #518 (permalink)  
 
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Post #347
One point which must be made to the ignorant 'hang him high' people posting here, is that the Captain's integrity is most certainly NOT in any doubt.
Such an emphatic statement seems at odds with the current judicial process which is certainly questioning his integrity. I wonder what prompted such group loyalty.
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Old 10th Feb 2017, 09:03
  #519 (permalink)  
 
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Yes but that was BEagle's ramblings, he seems to have gone very quiet this last week.

I would have thought the two in question must now be scrabbling around for the telephone number of a certain Mr Bob Massingbird QC, a most gifted gentleman.
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Old 10th Feb 2017, 09:26
  #520 (permalink)  
 
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I would expect the one on trial has already made that call, if not it's a bit late!
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