Health & Safety Hi Viz Nonsense!
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Oh you beat me to it Coff.
IIRC it was noticed that red fire engines stuck out on aerial photos. OK paint them green. Then people in accidents claimed they didn't see them. OK stick a nice yellow stripe round them. Bet they show up on aerial photos, circle completed.
IIRC it was noticed that red fire engines stuck out on aerial photos. OK paint them green. Then people in accidents claimed they didn't see them. OK stick a nice yellow stripe round them. Bet they show up on aerial photos, circle completed.
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I do remember before all this hi viz stuff starts that 2 aircrew walking across the flight line were struck by a runway snow blower when the driver didn't see them. Although they were injured, it was their good fortune that the machine had just broken a shear pin. The impeller drive in one of those things has around 600BHP.
After an excellent landing etc...
After an excellent landing etc...
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ook I am no lover of our blue polyester monkey suits, but surely a blue Jeltex jacket does the same job (perhaps better) of deflecting the rain than an MTP jacket?
If a barrier technician is just checking passes and not carrying a shooter (viz Alan Partridge) why the need for MTP?
If a barrier technician is just checking passes and not carrying a shooter (viz Alan Partridge) why the need for MTP?
The uniform designed for stagging on is not blues. It sometimes gets cold out as well as wet and a blue shirt and jumper won't cut it.
Those on guard also tend to be the RRF / whatever the current name is. They deal with anything anywhere on the station. Mincing about in blues doesn't cut it. When not on the gate they may be on foot patrol elsewhere around the fenceline or across station.
Thread Starter
Have I been to Bastion - yes, lots, but never been posted there. I've also been there pre and post the arrival of the colonial booties.
Why is the picture that I posted so ridiculous? It's frickin' daylight and those belts are meant for night time use!
T!ts on f!sh springs to mind...
Whichever bozo dreamt up the need for a hi viz belt in broad daylight on an aircraft apron must have an IQ of about 6! If you want hi viz in daylight then you must have a contrasting colour tabard (there's even a British Standard* and EC directive on the design of hi viz if you're really bored!). The reflective tape is designed to work at night and 95% of the belt is covered in the tape.
There's also an issue about having too much hi viz clothing on the apron - if there's too much of it, then you may as well not wear it at all (especially if there are lots of signs in a similar colour - like Aircraft Armed boards, Laser warning signs and other health & safety paraphanalia). It's the same with road signs - if you have too many then you miss the really important ones.
Nope, I see no tangeable safety benefit for CAS and his hangers on in wearing reflective safety belts in broad daylight. They'd be better of giving him a bright red Father Christmas hat!!!
(apart from hats and aircraft engines don't mix!)
LJ
* BS EN471
Why is the picture that I posted so ridiculous? It's frickin' daylight and those belts are meant for night time use!
T!ts on f!sh springs to mind...
Whichever bozo dreamt up the need for a hi viz belt in broad daylight on an aircraft apron must have an IQ of about 6! If you want hi viz in daylight then you must have a contrasting colour tabard (there's even a British Standard* and EC directive on the design of hi viz if you're really bored!). The reflective tape is designed to work at night and 95% of the belt is covered in the tape.
There's also an issue about having too much hi viz clothing on the apron - if there's too much of it, then you may as well not wear it at all (especially if there are lots of signs in a similar colour - like Aircraft Armed boards, Laser warning signs and other health & safety paraphanalia). It's the same with road signs - if you have too many then you miss the really important ones.
Nope, I see no tangeable safety benefit for CAS and his hangers on in wearing reflective safety belts in broad daylight. They'd be better of giving him a bright red Father Christmas hat!!!
(apart from hats and aircraft engines don't mix!)
LJ
* BS EN471
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 19th Jan 2014 at 00:41.
Thread Starter
I'd forgotten about the 'hat police'. That started in KAF when the WO scribbly was tasked by the Detco to stand outside the UK DFAC and tell people to put their hats on.
The next day, at the very same spot the blunty WO had been standing, there was an inscription in big letters written on the blast wall...
LJ
The next day, at the very same spot the blunty WO had been standing, there was an inscription in big letters written on the blast wall...
"Daddy, what did you do in the war?"
"I was in the hat police, son"
"Daddy, what's a w@nker?"
It was scrubbed out shortly afterwards after half of KAF had come to see it and p!ss themselves laughing!"I was in the hat police, son"
"Daddy, what's a w@nker?"
LJ
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All this talk of Hat Police etc makes me wonder how we managed on Ascension Island in 82. The first deployment I was on was during the 'shooting' phase of the war, just aircrew, ops staff, maintenance personnel, medics and firemen. (and SIB 
) We seemed to manage perfectly ok meeting the required op tempo. My last deployment there was after the ceasefire and the difference was astonishing, we had SROs, SSOs, flags going up and down at the requisite periods. In fact we had lots of 'support' and extra rules which really would have made the job a lot harder, if our op tempo was as before. It seems that all the b@#$%^&t arrives when the op tempo decreases, idle hands and the creation of empires etc.
) We seemed to manage perfectly ok meeting the required op tempo. My last deployment there was after the ceasefire and the difference was astonishing, we had SROs, SSOs, flags going up and down at the requisite periods. In fact we had lots of 'support' and extra rules which really would have made the job a lot harder, if our op tempo was as before. It seems that all the b@#$%^&t arrives when the op tempo decreases, idle hands and the creation of empires etc.
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Some years back I worked on a radar job for the RAAF. The gear was placed in camouflaged shipping containers which was then dumped in various parts of the outback.
At one meeting of 'suits' I suggested a better way of hiding this secret squirrel stuff from people might be putting it into highly visible shipping containers with something like Maersk or China Shipping painted on it. After all every other sheep farm in Oz has it's share of old shipping containers used as sheds etc.
Just got stared at !
At one meeting of 'suits' I suggested a better way of hiding this secret squirrel stuff from people might be putting it into highly visible shipping containers with something like Maersk or China Shipping painted on it. After all every other sheep farm in Oz has it's share of old shipping containers used as sheds etc.
Just got stared at !
Gentleman Aviator
Mr C I do take your point about "stagging on*" wear, but in this case they remained entirely within their over-heated box. And when the RAFP were on, they managed it in blues - but maybe so they could still wear their white caps!
* must we use this Army phrase?
* must we use this Army phrase?
Evertonian
When everyone is wearing Hi Viz gear, the people that don't stand out...ergo, you are much safer. At least, that's what I said when I got caught crossing the tarmac without it...
"Do you realise that it's harder for you to be seen without it?"
"Well, you saw me didn't you?"
"Do you realise that it's harder for you to be seen without it?"
"Well, you saw me didn't you?"
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bosnich
Agree, sometimes it can be beneficial to hide it in plain sight, especially if it can be dumped and left with little daily / weekly etc activity around it.
Agree, sometimes it can be beneficial to hide it in plain sight, especially if it can be dumped and left with little daily / weekly etc activity around it.
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500 .... hiding them in "plain sight" was my very point but as a lowly person in the hierarchy of this particular project I was ignored. Mind you that was basically S.O.P. for me so I didn't get too upset.
Perhaps the 'suits' thought that if they hid them in plain sight they may never find them when they actually needed them, ho, ho.
Perhaps the 'suits' thought that if they hid them in plain sight they may never find them when they actually needed them, ho, ho.
My Goodness! I never realised how lucky I was. All those years wandering around flight lines and similar spaces on airfirields without being run over or hit by something. Never once have I warn anything hi-viz apart from the reflective cross on my bonedome - and I generally only put that on when I was safely inside the cockpit.
Is anyone else here still alive after walking on an airfield?
Is anyone else here still alive after walking on an airfield?
Gentleman Aviator
sometimes it can be beneficial to hide it in plain sight
One recalls flying some Tech Int guys from London to Aldergrove (in the mighty Wessex) to give a presentation on SAM-7. We stopped at Valley for the (then - o tempora, o mores) obligatory free steak lunch in the feeder - and to refuel and don goon-suits. As a visual aid, the guys had said missile - in a golf-bag under the port seats (aka Wessex luggage compartment).
As we went to the feeder, conversation went thusly:
Teeters: Er, shouldn't we tell someone about you-know-what before we b%gger off to eat?
Tech Int: Nah - right now it's a golf-bag; surround it with Snowdrops and everyone will know something's up!
Made sense to me ........
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Leon. You seem to have a superior knowledge of the subject yet your employer seems to be ignorant. Have you ever shared this up official channels? Just asking.
As far as 'day'ight or night' goes - let's put human factors in there. It is much harder to enforce something for 50% of the day, light levels can get lower with storms etc during daylight, it gets dark quite quickly (sorry guv, it was light when I started loading the aircraft) and most vests (and the belts) are not 95% reflective so at least give some level of contrasting colour against a MTP background. I'm not saying it is the best policy applied in the most effective way, but it is a reasonable attempt at something that is at least for the right reasons.
TH - how do you know what they did when not checking passes on the gate? Also - were they RAF and not MoD Guards?
As far as 'day'ight or night' goes - let's put human factors in there. It is much harder to enforce something for 50% of the day, light levels can get lower with storms etc during daylight, it gets dark quite quickly (sorry guv, it was light when I started loading the aircraft) and most vests (and the belts) are not 95% reflective so at least give some level of contrasting colour against a MTP background. I'm not saying it is the best policy applied in the most effective way, but it is a reasonable attempt at something that is at least for the right reasons.
TH - how do you know what they did when not checking passes on the gate? Also - were they RAF and not MoD Guards?
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Originally Posted by Teeteringhead
... why that would be exactly like putting HISLs on camouflaged aircraft!
© Waldemar Winkler
I heard one former BoB Pilot say "shame they didn't paint em like that in 1940"
Sorry for the thread drift Leon
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[QUOTE]I'd forgotten about the 'hat police'. That started in KAF when the WO scribbly was tasked by the Detco to stand outside the UK DFAC and tell people to put their hats on.[QUOTE]
I remember the Det Co, a Gp Capt, appointing himself OC Hat Police at Ali Al Salem in 2003; he used to stand outside the cookhouse and bawl at people (very dignified for an OF5). He bawled at the wrong person one day - an Army One-Star (and my Boss, who I as a mere SO3 was driving that day) who also happened to be COMBRITFOR Kuwait; cue a rather a pointed 'discussion' on the cookhouse steps with the One-Star on send and the Gp Capt on receive. The Gp Capt was still a Gp Capt in 2007 when I ran into him in D.C.
I remember the Det Co, a Gp Capt, appointing himself OC Hat Police at Ali Al Salem in 2003; he used to stand outside the cookhouse and bawl at people (very dignified for an OF5). He bawled at the wrong person one day - an Army One-Star (and my Boss, who I as a mere SO3 was driving that day) who also happened to be COMBRITFOR Kuwait; cue a rather a pointed 'discussion' on the cookhouse steps with the One-Star on send and the Gp Capt on receive. The Gp Capt was still a Gp Capt in 2007 when I ran into him in D.C.
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I am certain that everyone was acutely aware he was on walkabout, but hey. Health and Safety is about risk awareness and appreciation, surely, and not risk removal. If it subordinates common sense and responsibility because it is used so prescriptively and dogmatically, then is the threat to common sense and self determination a greater threat than the blanket perceived threat to life and limb?
Surely, in theatre, there should be heightened alert and self awareness anyway. Individual responsibility has been eroded by the state/system seeking to justify its importance by imposing its will on the individual to the point that the individual no longer has rights or responsibilities. The system can argue, quantify and define RTA incidents, but not common sense and self help. I just prefer less intrusion and government which doesn't make itself indispensable however it can.
Surely, in theatre, there should be heightened alert and self awareness anyway. Individual responsibility has been eroded by the state/system seeking to justify its importance by imposing its will on the individual to the point that the individual no longer has rights or responsibilities. The system can argue, quantify and define RTA incidents, but not common sense and self help. I just prefer less intrusion and government which doesn't make itself indispensable however it can.