Health & Safety Hi Viz Nonsense!
Gentleman Aviator
TH - how do you know what they did when not checking passes on the gate? Also - were they RAF and not MoD Guards?
)Point 2. I refer the Hon member to the answer I gave earlier (Post No 17)
and they had airmen rather than plods or MGS doing "barrier up barrier down"
Originally Posted by Teeteringhead
... why that would be exactly like putting HISLs on camouflaged aircraft!
... why that would be exactly like putting HISLs on camouflaged aircraft!
The
was meant to denote irony .........
Several of us towing a Huey on ground handling wheels across Blackpool Airport Apron.....we were confronted by Jobsworth Security Type who was insistent I was violating the Queen's dignity by not having a Hi Vis Waist Coat visible for all to see.
All being himself as the Airport was closed.
Me temporarily attached to the Tail Stinger of said Huey.
He insisting we cease what we were doing unless and until I was attired in full compliance with HSE Regulations.
Mind you.....that would have left the Huey in the middle of things unattended and a risk to all aircraft moving about the parking apron....but after all Befehl its Befehl.....Guv.
My observation that even if I had a Hi Vis Jacket....anyone that was so blind as to miss seeing the Huey and Tug would probably not be able to see little ol' me either.
Added to that....my suggestion that if they did see the Huey and avoided it....they would at the same time avoid me....Vest or no Vest.
Lacking that even .... with every assurance I would find a position of sanctuary by use of my pegs and wit....did not compute with Jobs either.
Even being told we would all obtain our very own monogramed Hi Vis Waistcoats immediately upon the completion of the current evolution made no difference to the Jobsworth.
We did out fox him in the end.....as we kept towing the Huey to the hangar door and into the hangar.....then informed him since we were now safely inside the hangar would he mind taking his Hi Vis Jacket and Ass somewhere else as he had not authority or reason for being in the hangar.
Why do the HSE crowd find commonsense so alien to their thinking?
All being himself as the Airport was closed.
Me temporarily attached to the Tail Stinger of said Huey.
He insisting we cease what we were doing unless and until I was attired in full compliance with HSE Regulations.
Mind you.....that would have left the Huey in the middle of things unattended and a risk to all aircraft moving about the parking apron....but after all Befehl its Befehl.....Guv.
My observation that even if I had a Hi Vis Jacket....anyone that was so blind as to miss seeing the Huey and Tug would probably not be able to see little ol' me either.
Added to that....my suggestion that if they did see the Huey and avoided it....they would at the same time avoid me....Vest or no Vest.
Lacking that even .... with every assurance I would find a position of sanctuary by use of my pegs and wit....did not compute with Jobs either.
Even being told we would all obtain our very own monogramed Hi Vis Waistcoats immediately upon the completion of the current evolution made no difference to the Jobsworth.
We did out fox him in the end.....as we kept towing the Huey to the hangar door and into the hangar.....then informed him since we were now safely inside the hangar would he mind taking his Hi Vis Jacket and Ass somewhere else as he had not authority or reason for being in the hangar.
Why do the HSE crowd find commonsense so alien to their thinking?
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slightly OT
My Goodness! I never realised how lucky I was. All those years wandering around flight lines and similar spaces on airfirields without being run over or hit by something. Never once have I warn anything hi-viz apart from the reflective cross on my bonedome - and I generally only put that on when I was safely inside the cockpit.
Is anyone else here still alive after walking on an airfield?
Is anyone else here still alive after walking on an airfield?
I was almost taken out by a landrover in a fully illuminated HAS 3 one night, a radar crew in snag developed, I returned to the cabin to bleat for help again, and on leaving the cabin was almost taken out by said lr as it screamed to a halt across the walkway [that was the episode that started me hair turning gray LOL]
ps we kept the lights on in H3 all the time in case the ghost came round again, but that's another story....
Thread Starter
Mr C H
Nope, wouldn't bother with sending it up the line as A4 people are hard over on it and they pull the strings (in error I believe). All I do is that I make it personal choice on my airfield born out of the fact that after 100 years of aviation and ~1 million flight movements there has never been a human run over but there have been plenty of aircraft hit - the last being a Chipmunk hit by a grasscutter! 
No hi viz on the aircraft but it was painted red/white/black and was on green grass. The driver just got too close - idiot!
Not bumping into things in daylight is all about contrast and movement - that is why we painted our trg aircraft black. So sometimes, hi viz in daylight is counter productive as it doesn't have the correct contrast and lulls the wearer of it into a false sense of security that they can be seen. Whenever I walk around on aprons/manoeuvring areas/ORPS I always think that no one can see me - that is how I have stayed alive in over a quarter of a century (in answer to Courtney's question). The only thing of mine ever hit was my helmet/electric razor in a bag within a huge pile of luggage outside a C130 on the Nellis Ramp - the driver? The idiot DAMO who even had to rev his truck harder to get over the pile of luggage! i did enjoy launching myself at him through the window, in front of the groundcrew, shouting "stop the f-ing engine you cnut, you're driving over the luggage!".
Considering the DAMO's performance on that day isn't it a good job that A4 set our hi viz policy?
(still he did ground me in Vegas for 48 hours whilst a new flying helmet was sent out! - every cloud and all that
)
Anyway, the belt being worn by CAS and his entourage is uneccesary and looks just plain stupid. If you don't want CAS being run over, then do something else than putting on a useless belt and think 'job done'. A vest would be better as at least 80% is in a probable contrasting colour unlike the majority reflective material on the belt that only works at night or in fog (when it picks out head lights).
LJ
PS. I also remember the unfortunate individual that was the only one wearing hi viz to get run over.
Leon. You seem to have a superior knowledge of the subject yet your employer seems to be ignorant. Have you ever shared this up official channels? Just asking.
No hi viz on the aircraft but it was painted red/white/black and was on green grass. The driver just got too close - idiot!Not bumping into things in daylight is all about contrast and movement - that is why we painted our trg aircraft black. So sometimes, hi viz in daylight is counter productive as it doesn't have the correct contrast and lulls the wearer of it into a false sense of security that they can be seen. Whenever I walk around on aprons/manoeuvring areas/ORPS I always think that no one can see me - that is how I have stayed alive in over a quarter of a century (in answer to Courtney's question). The only thing of mine ever hit was my helmet/electric razor in a bag within a huge pile of luggage outside a C130 on the Nellis Ramp - the driver? The idiot DAMO who even had to rev his truck harder to get over the pile of luggage!
i did enjoy launching myself at him through the window, in front of the groundcrew, shouting "stop the f-ing engine you cnut, you're driving over the luggage!". Considering the DAMO's performance on that day isn't it a good job that A4 set our hi viz policy?
(still he did ground me in Vegas for 48 hours whilst a new flying helmet was sent out! - every cloud and all that
)Anyway, the belt being worn by CAS and his entourage is uneccesary and looks just plain stupid. If you don't want CAS being run over, then do something else than putting on a useless belt and think 'job done'. A vest would be better as at least 80% is in a probable contrasting colour unlike the majority reflective material on the belt that only works at night or in fog (when it picks out head lights).
LJ
PS. I also remember the unfortunate individual that was the only one wearing hi viz to get run over.
Thread Starter
PPS I also don't wear default hi viz on my motorbike, but I dress for the conditions. If it's a bright day and the roads are dusty and light grey I'll wear black with a silver helmet. If it's a dull day I'll wear my jacket with reflective strips and white helmet. If it's frosty then I won't wear my white helmet. At all times I put on my headlight. In other words, the default of pulling on hi viz vest just does not cut it for all conditions.
LJ
LJ
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but I dress for the conditions.
Why cycling in high-vis may be not as safe as you think | Peter Walker | Environment | theguardian.com
The authors looked at 12 studies dating back as far as 1969, a number of which seemed to show that a fluorescent jacket or similar garb made riders more visible. However, the paper notes that many of these put the bikes against relatively uniform backdrops rather than the every-varying contrast of a moving landscape.
One study, from 2011, appeared to show that drivers saw moving motorbikes more quickly if there was a greater colour contrast between the background and the rider's clothes. Another, from last year, concluded that depending on the road and traffic the most visible rider apparel could be a high-vis jacket, a white jacket or even a black jacket.
One study, from 2011, appeared to show that drivers saw moving motorbikes more quickly if there was a greater colour contrast between the background and the rider's clothes. Another, from last year, concluded that depending on the road and traffic the most visible rider apparel could be a high-vis jacket, a white jacket or even a black jacket.
Last edited by Al R; 19th Jan 2014 at 17:03.
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Nope, wouldn't bother with sending it up the line as A4 people are hard over on it and they pull the strings
In other words, the default of pulling on hi viz vest just does not cut it for all conditions.
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I like to cycle (in the warm summer daylight) and hi-viz is a pretty big topic in cycling internet forums. Key points were...
- At night there is no colour perception. So painting something dayglo is cock all use. At night dayglo yellow is not much better than any other colour.
- In certain situations even reflectives can be cock all use. When there is a narrow beam of light, nothing will be seen in the peripheral. For example, a guy wearing a reflective jacket is walking across an apron 90 degrees to a vehicle light. Also reflectives don't help you see something approaching when you are sat at a T junction.
- If yellow dayglo is widely used, others get so familiar seeing it all the time, that it looses it's effectiveness. People switch off to it. Maybe a different colour people are not used to seeing would be better.
Maybe in the future H&S will make us dress like characters in the film Tron?
- At night there is no colour perception. So painting something dayglo is cock all use. At night dayglo yellow is not much better than any other colour.
- In certain situations even reflectives can be cock all use. When there is a narrow beam of light, nothing will be seen in the peripheral. For example, a guy wearing a reflective jacket is walking across an apron 90 degrees to a vehicle light. Also reflectives don't help you see something approaching when you are sat at a T junction.
- If yellow dayglo is widely used, others get so familiar seeing it all the time, that it looses it's effectiveness. People switch off to it. Maybe a different colour people are not used to seeing would be better.
Maybe in the future H&S will make us dress like characters in the film Tron?
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CM,
Yep, spent nearly a hour wandering around the apron and hangers at West Raynham with the camera many years ago, with authority I should add.
Didn't get hit by a Canberra or the AEF Chippies. Didn't have the Bloodhounds at the servicing unit throw a wobble despite wearing a dark suit, although I did get stopped by an RAFP dog man and his mini to check me out.
Even the mini didn't have go faster stripes or high vis markings and I managed to get some nice photos that day as well. ATC Annual camp was good for quite a few reasons
Yep, spent nearly a hour wandering around the apron and hangers at West Raynham with the camera many years ago, with authority I should add.
Didn't get hit by a Canberra or the AEF Chippies. Didn't have the Bloodhounds at the servicing unit throw a wobble despite wearing a dark suit, although I did get stopped by an RAFP dog man and his mini to check me out.
Even the mini didn't have go faster stripes or high vis markings and I managed to get some nice photos that day as well. ATC Annual camp was good for quite a few reasons
Avoid imitations
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In early 1980s some senior RAF officer decided that his aircrew needed to be more tactical. It became mandatory to "cam up" our faces like flying Rambos. He obviously saw it as a career enhancing breakthrough for himself.
The army thought it bizarre to the point of being totally laughable. As one officer pointed out, in our "battle positions", sitting in the front of our 7 tonne helicopters, it was fairly easy for the enemy to spot us, cam creamed faces or not.
The army thought it bizarre to the point of being totally laughable. As one officer pointed out, in our "battle positions", sitting in the front of our 7 tonne helicopters, it was fairly easy for the enemy to spot us, cam creamed faces or not.
CM,
Doubtless you were wandering around a pretty well lit ORP/Apron on a well found Cold-War funded station with only well trained UK mil pers worked in well maintained vehicles. It's a bit different in the dustbowls or KAF/BSN where the passing vehicles kick up plenty of dust as few of the roads are tarmac, and some of the coalition partners have a more 'relaxed' attitude to driving...and that's before you get a dust storm come through. It's not the pan you need to worry about, it's getting between work, domestic accn and the DFACs without being run over.....
Doubtless you were wandering around a pretty well lit ORP/Apron on a well found Cold-War funded station with only well trained UK mil pers worked in well maintained vehicles. It's a bit different in the dustbowls or KAF/BSN where the passing vehicles kick up plenty of dust as few of the roads are tarmac, and some of the coalition partners have a more 'relaxed' attitude to driving...and that's before you get a dust storm come through. It's not the pan you need to worry about, it's getting between work, domestic accn and the DFACs without being run over.....
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found Cold-War funded station with only well trained UK mil pers worked in well maintained vehicles. I
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If Standing Orders for movement around the WHOLE base are to wear a reflective belt due to the reasons mentioned by Evalu8ter, would it not be sending the wrong message to the 'troops' if the top man (in this case CAS) and his staff just ignored them? 
Who is to say he didn't arrive early in the morning and go for breakfast whilst it was still dark and then go straight on his 'tour'?
This is not a new thing out that way. It was exactly the same at (insert airbase in the Middle East) for a long time. You picked up your reflective belt alongside your morphine and CAT.
Who is to say he didn't arrive early in the morning and go for breakfast whilst it was still dark and then go straight on his 'tour'?
This is not a new thing out that way. It was exactly the same at (insert airbase in the Middle East) for a long time. You picked up your reflective belt alongside your morphine and CAT.
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gr4 Techie ..... 'it's down to liability'.
Back in the olden days we Cold War warriors didn't even have ear defenders, in fact, at times, we were lucky if we even had a cold weather jacket. It was only after the RAF started to get sued that they were deemed to be necessary. Nowadays when I don't hear what the Wife says to me I blame it all on my service to 'Queen and Country'.
Back in the olden days we Cold War warriors didn't even have ear defenders, in fact, at times, we were lucky if we even had a cold weather jacket. It was only after the RAF started to get sued that they were deemed to be necessary. Nowadays when I don't hear what the Wife says to me I blame it all on my service to 'Queen and Country'.
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The stupidity of it all is that at an airport the people forced to wear them, the handlers and the engineers etc, the people who work day in day out airside and understand the dangers and pitfalls of working there.
The people that don't wear them, those who have no knowledge of the dangers, and therefore are prime candidates for them are the passengers.
The people that don't wear them, those who have no knowledge of the dangers, and therefore are prime candidates for them are the passengers.
n early 1980s some senior RAF officer decided that his aircrew needed to be more tactical. It became mandatory to "cam up" our faces like flying Rambos. He obviously saw it as a career enhancing breakthrough for himself.
The army thought it bizarre to the point of being totally laughable. As one officer pointed out, in our "battle positions", sitting in the front of our 7 tonne helicopters, it was fairly easy for the enemy to spot us, cam creamed faces or not.
The army thought it bizarre to the point of being totally laughable. As one officer pointed out, in our "battle positions", sitting in the front of our 7 tonne helicopters, it was fairly easy for the enemy to spot us, cam creamed faces or not.
That Ross feller sure had a cracker jack of a girl friend.....like a young girl friend...the lucky old rascal.
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Are you talking about Ross Kemp ?
He was married to Rebekah Wade at one stage,
of News of the World "hacking mobile phone fame"
He was married to Rebekah Wade at one stage,
of News of the World "hacking mobile phone fame"
Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
Doubtless you were wandering around a pretty well lit ORP/Apron on a well found Cold-War funded station with only well trained UK mil pers worked in well maintained vehicles.