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UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement

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UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement

Old 20th Jul 2015, 18:18
  #1401 (permalink)  
 
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You know, a rather large chunk of me would love to see the Japanese get the business.
As an 'enthusiastic' outsider I'm of the same opinion.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 20:56
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Some sort of off set deal maybe. After all, Honda, Nissan and Toyota vehicles are made in the UK giving employment to thousands of Brits.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 22:17
  #1403 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if any experts here can tell us which out of the Hercules surveillance version and the P-1 would best suit our needs. My only thoughts are if Lockheed can bring our own Hercs up to the surveillance spec would that save us money. On the other hand the P-1 seems to be purpose-built. I imagine Japan's requirements might be rather like ours from a geographic perspective.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 22:23
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O-P
 
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Royalist,


I'm trying hard to think of an L-M solution that saved anyone any money...Nope my mind is a blank, they all end up costing sh1t tons.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 07:43
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Smile C130 MPA

Back in the sixties when the RAF were equipping with the C130, we were shown a film of a USAF C130 landing on a carrier. Perhaps we should equip the C130 with missiles and thus solve the problem of finding an aircraft for our future aircraft carriers. We won't even have to buy any new aircraft if we convert some of those we already own!!!
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 08:28
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I'm trying hard to think of an L-M solution that saved anyone any money...Nope my mind is a blank, they all end up costing sh1t tons.
A bit harsh on the C-130 O-P? Can you think of an alternative platform that would have provided the UK with a comparable capability over the same timeframe for less money? I can't.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 08:28
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Hands up who wants to ditch a C-130.....

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Old 21st Jul 2015, 08:45
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A bit better!

Seriously though, didn't Lockheed make a study of an amphibious Herc some years ago?
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 08:54
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Whereas Boeing has done plenty of testing of the P-8's ditching characteristics...

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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:23
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In terms of industrial offset, Kawasaki are already licence building 13 AW101 (Merlin) helicopters for the Japanese MSDF. Hence there is a precedent for UK (albeit Italian owned) and Japanese military aerospace cooperation. If there could be some industrial offset such as UK radar, comms, DAS or such then this could become quite politically palatable.....
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:25
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A promise to keep investing in Japanese car factories in the UK would be enough for me............................
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:34
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Japan already stated that they are very interested in the METEOR and BRIMSTONE missiles.
There are other fields related with but outside of the defence sector where the UK and JAPAN have similar interests like Space, commercial aviation and other tech sector related industries.

If the UK & Japan think outside of the box a little there are numerous examples where they could cooperate better and both make some good money.
High speed trains and railways, radar tech and even shipbuilding to name a few.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:34
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I'm not sure I understand this sudden drive to buy the P-1 over the P-8. I get that it's currently the shiny new piece of kit on the block, and that RIAT has certainly raised its profile, but as an MPA/ASW platform is it really any better than the P-8? I guess the Japanese themselves don't even know the answer to that one yet, as it's still in OT&E.

Is it cheaper to procure, operate, and sustain (it's a genuine question, as I have not seen any firm figures)?

And what of the interoperability and support base that comes with fielding a platform already in service with the US Navy (not to mention the already growing export market)?

Has the UK's experience of fielding Boeing products (C-17, Chinook, Apache, Airseeker [ok, probably not that last one]) really been so bad that we would jump on anything else just because it's not Boeing?
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:37
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Well melmoth - when you're negotiating a price it's nice to have an option to use to beat down Mr. B..........................
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:41
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Melmothtw, not necessarily. Indeed, many of your questions are ones that I would pose. However, to select a non-NATO aircraft ahead of America's best could well indicate that a thorough and non-biased procurement process had been followed; best meets the requirement.

I think there is still much scope for (accusations of) cronyism in defence procurement. if the P1 is the best all-round deal, then there should be absolutely no resistance to it's purchase. Personally, as a tax payer, I want value for money and capability. I think the Japanese have rather a good track record as far as maritime stuff is concerned and, judging by their cars, they're also pretty darn good at building things.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:48
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Seriously though, didn't Lockheed make a study of an amphibious Herc some years ago?
To improve still further the versatility of its C-130, Lockheed-Georgia undertook, between 1964 and 1973, several studies of an amphibious version. The basic principles of the conversion were proved during the course of a 1968 US Navy contract for which a on-sixth dynamically scaled, radio-controlled model was used as a development tool. Retaining the basic C-130 airframe and undercarriage, the HOW (Hercules-On-Water) was to be fitted with a retractable hydro-ski beneath the fuselage, a false hull beneath the existing pressurized fuselage, and two auxiliary floats each housing 400 US gal (1,515 litres) of fuel. Furthermore, the nacelles for its Allison T56 engines were to be inverted to take the propellers and intakes away from the water spray. The design was improved during the following four years to include enlarged tail surfaces, double-slotted flaps, and spoilers. Various configurations were offered to military users and airlines, but no production contracts were received.


http://atomictoasters.com/2013/02/he...es-for-a-swim/
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:56
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Heathrow and Cows, all good points.

Well melmoth - when you're negotiating a price it's nice to have an option to use to beat down Mr. B..........................
Makes perfect sense.

However, to select a non-NATO aircraft ahead of America's best could well indicate that a thorough and non-biased procurement process had been followed; best meets the requirement.
Is there not a case to be made for procuring the P-8 over the P-1 precisely because the US is a NATO partner? I totally get the 'best tool for the job' argument, but are there not wider issues of alliance solidarity (more important than ever right now) and commonality.

I think the Japanese have rather a good track record as far as maritime stuff is concerned and, judging by their cars, they're also pretty darn good at building things.
Can't argue with any of that, but I have heard anecdotaly that the P-1's mission kit had some teething issues (which may or may not have been sorted by now), and that the engines are somewhat underpowered and unreliable.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:56
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Not saying that Kawasaki is any better than Boeing, for all I know the Poseidon might be a better fit than the P1, it certainly has some strong selling points like the fact that it is a 737 and therefore lots of parts, people and knowledge is readily available already.
Just saying that if the UK opts for the P1, the industrial offset possibilities must not necessary be a problem.

I do think that the P1 is that much better looking but I don't really know anything about what makes an MPA a good MPA, I do think that the Japanese have a vested interest in having the best of the best when it comes to Maritime defence related stuff so it probably is good enough for the UK too, just like the P8 probably is.
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 11:57
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Don't forget the hi-prob of the RAN getting Japanese Soryu subs...
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Old 21st Jul 2015, 12:01
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Offer them some Astutes, that would make for a good deal for both.
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