Flt. Lt. Sean Cunningham inquest
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DV
I'm not an engineer and know nothing about ejection seats, but is the inquest comment by Neil Mackie at the bottom of the first quoted paragraph at post 85 what you are looking for?
I'm not an engineer and know nothing about ejection seats, but is the inquest comment by Neil Mackie at the bottom of the first quoted paragraph at post 85 what you are looking for?
dragartist
No problem. I agree with what you say and it is interesting that other areas saw the same approach by the CE. The entire process you speak of was disbanded by June 1993 in my area, and we had to seek other jobs because we had nothing to do. Or, we had plenty to do, but AMSO had pi##ed the money down the drain and stopped funding pubs, 765s, 760/1s, obsolescence, configuration control, mods, safety cases etc.
Co-incidence that this is the precise timeframe under discussion at the inquest? I don't believe in co-incidences; the same failures, at the same time, led to the "new" evidence on Chinook that MoD so arrogantly demanded for so long. Maybe that's why the MAA have withheld the SI report from the Inquest. Same old names cropping up.
Funnily enough, the HCDC has this week asked for evidence on this very subject. Interesting that they don't ask MoD..... One day the VSOs involved (AMSO/AMLs from 1985-96) will find their protection has disappeared! I notice one of them no longer posts here. Good riddance.
No problem. I agree with what you say and it is interesting that other areas saw the same approach by the CE. The entire process you speak of was disbanded by June 1993 in my area, and we had to seek other jobs because we had nothing to do. Or, we had plenty to do, but AMSO had pi##ed the money down the drain and stopped funding pubs, 765s, 760/1s, obsolescence, configuration control, mods, safety cases etc.
Co-incidence that this is the precise timeframe under discussion at the inquest? I don't believe in co-incidences; the same failures, at the same time, led to the "new" evidence on Chinook that MoD so arrogantly demanded for so long. Maybe that's why the MAA have withheld the SI report from the Inquest. Same old names cropping up.
Funnily enough, the HCDC has this week asked for evidence on this very subject. Interesting that they don't ask MoD..... One day the VSOs involved (AMSO/AMLs from 1985-96) will find their protection has disappeared! I notice one of them no longer posts here. Good riddance.
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President of the inquiry at the inquest today:
Sean Cunningham inquest: snagged harness strap four days before tragedy led to ejection seat firing | Lincolnshire Echo
Further from today:
MoD was not told about key safety concern | Lincolnshire Echo
Sean Cunningham inquest: snagged harness strap four days before tragedy led to ejection seat firing | Lincolnshire Echo
Further from today:
MoD was not told about key safety concern | Lincolnshire Echo
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Martin-Baker and the MoD are looking to roll out a new shoulder bolt in May or June this year to make over-tightening of the nut impossible.
Read more: MoD was not told about key safety concern | Lincolnshire Echo
Read more: MoD was not told about key safety concern | Lincolnshire Echo
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Nutty,
you are not wrong but we all know he knew what he meant.
I sit in amazement over how many column inches have been generated over a simple nut and bolt. (I was reluctant to join in to begin with)
the problem I have seen with shoulder bolts is that the thread gets undercut making them liable to sheer off if over tightened.
May be better to use a spacer tube. but I have not studied the assembly and constraints.
Let us hope what ever happens they get the books clear so there can be no scope for variation. In the Auto industry we used the term Poke Yoke to describe things being fool proof. I did a course at the Smallpeice Trust at Warwick a while back.
Drag
you are not wrong but we all know he knew what he meant.
I sit in amazement over how many column inches have been generated over a simple nut and bolt. (I was reluctant to join in to begin with)
the problem I have seen with shoulder bolts is that the thread gets undercut making them liable to sheer off if over tightened.
May be better to use a spacer tube. but I have not studied the assembly and constraints.
Let us hope what ever happens they get the books clear so there can be no scope for variation. In the Auto industry we used the term Poke Yoke to describe things being fool proof. I did a course at the Smallpeice Trust at Warwick a while back.
Drag
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Call me a cynic but from what I read in the press the conclusions being drawn are that Flt Lt Cunningham f**ked up FOUR DAYS previously, in how he strapped in/unstrapped/safed the seat.
19 separate entries into the cockpit "missed" the unsafe seat.
Flt Lt Cunningham then missed it again on strapping back in and after pulling the pin he sat back and the seat fired.
I call bollocks on this, I am detecting a strong whiff of someone being scapegoated to save face of VSO, once again.
20 separate people do not miss the fundamental safety checks on seats....
Back when I learnt about seats as a humble liney I, like everybody else was taught that you are climbing on a bomb, one that wants to fire, one that wants to kill you and will do so if you do not give it 100% respect for every single second you are working near it.
when I had my backseat trip - the scariest part for me was removing that seat pan pin when the pilot commanded me to.
I do not believe Flt Lt Cunningham f**ked up - besides, whatever caused the seat to fire - the fact it malfunctioned which led directly to his untimely death needs to be fully investigated and made sure will never happen again.
this process needs to leave no stone unturned. Sadly it looks to me like the ole VSO wagon circling and MOD intransigence (sp) will win.
Again
19 separate entries into the cockpit "missed" the unsafe seat.
Flt Lt Cunningham then missed it again on strapping back in and after pulling the pin he sat back and the seat fired.
I call bollocks on this, I am detecting a strong whiff of someone being scapegoated to save face of VSO, once again.
20 separate people do not miss the fundamental safety checks on seats....
Back when I learnt about seats as a humble liney I, like everybody else was taught that you are climbing on a bomb, one that wants to fire, one that wants to kill you and will do so if you do not give it 100% respect for every single second you are working near it.
when I had my backseat trip - the scariest part for me was removing that seat pan pin when the pilot commanded me to.
I do not believe Flt Lt Cunningham f**ked up - besides, whatever caused the seat to fire - the fact it malfunctioned which led directly to his untimely death needs to be fully investigated and made sure will never happen again.
this process needs to leave no stone unturned. Sadly it looks to me like the ole VSO wagon circling and MOD intransigence (sp) will win.
Again
Yes the technical investigation was in depth and extremely thorough,there is no need for any of this speculation - especially at this late stage in the proceedings !
This was always going to be a difficult one but surely worth sitting back and waiting for the report to be published before making sweeping statements on here !
As others have said - the findings will be published shortly.
rgds LR
This was always going to be a difficult one but surely worth sitting back and waiting for the report to be published before making sweeping statements on here !
As others have said - the findings will be published shortly.
rgds LR
when I had my backseat trip - the scariest part for me was removing that seat pan pin when the pilot commanded me to.
It got easier with subsequent flights : )
Yes the technical investigation was in depth and extremely thorough,there is no need for any of this speculation
I call bollocks on this, I am detecting a strong whiff of someone being scapegoated to save face of VSO, once again.
MoD have form here. They lie in court, and mislead by omission and commission. One day a Coroner will do his job and recommend charges be brought for perjury.
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Excerpting from the post by Cornish and focusing on one element.
Looking back a zillion years ago to my days as a humble liney on Vulcans, Hunters and Frightnings I have to identify with the suggestion that "20 separate people" is a sufficiently large number to swallow. Granted there are differences in seat type, installation and generation (seats and people) but the fundamentals in training and awareness of hazards I feel pretty sure are still there, or certainly should be. Over the time I was active in line and ejection seat work I encountered a few hairy "there but for the grace of God" type personal lapses that are the inevitable consequence of requiring a human interface and such are always present but, it's the "20 separate people" bit that I find hard to swallow and should be a worrying number. Heavens above, one would have thought that at least one of those 20 would have identified that something was not quite right; another element in the mounting sequence of events perhaps ?
20 separate people do not miss the fundamental safety checks on seats....
Back when I learnt about seats as a humble liney I, like everybody else was taught that you are climbing on a bomb, one that wants to fire, one that wants to kill you and will do so if you do not give it 100% respect for every single second you are working near it.
Back when I learnt about seats as a humble liney I, like everybody else was taught that you are climbing on a bomb, one that wants to fire, one that wants to kill you and will do so if you do not give it 100% respect for every single second you are working near it.
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20 separate people
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Yes, you would first glance at the stowage in the cockpit to ensure it was empty, then check the seat to ensure all the pins were in before entering the cockpit., it is drilled into you, they can and do kill people.
RAF Germany was slightly different as the main gun sear was not installed on the ground on the Jags, something to be honest I could never understand, because it takes seconds to fit and remove, so in that case there would be one pin in the stowage.
When strapping in you would do a final check to ensure all the pins were in the stowage then hold up 5 fingers to show all 5 pins were stowed and wait for an acknowledgement.
Many moons ago they were moving an old gate guardian off the gate to refurbish it in the USA and the seat fired killing to guy on brakes, there was a worldwide alert and all gate guards were checked, several were found to still have live seats fitted!
RAF Germany was slightly different as the main gun sear was not installed on the ground on the Jags, something to be honest I could never understand, because it takes seconds to fit and remove, so in that case there would be one pin in the stowage.
When strapping in you would do a final check to ensure all the pins were in the stowage then hold up 5 fingers to show all 5 pins were stowed and wait for an acknowledgement.
Many moons ago they were moving an old gate guardian off the gate to refurbish it in the USA and the seat fired killing to guy on brakes, there was a worldwide alert and all gate guards were checked, several were found to still have live seats fitted!
I've seen a photo which recreates the condition that Sean's seat handle and pin were believed to be in when he climbed into the cockpit on that fateful day. Based on what I've seen, I woul believe it if you told me that 100 people had missed the unsafe condition. Viewed from the front of the seat, the condition is obvious, but cockpit access checks are always carried out from above, from where the condition is not obvious at all. There are subtle visual clues and I'm told these have now been widely promulgated to the user community. VSO conspiracy theories are probably wide of the mark on this occasion.
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I gotta confess, I'm totally bamboozled as to why anybody is seeing cover ups and conspiracy here 
As someone who has spent all of 1 hour 30 mins on a bang seat (pax in Jaguar circa 1980) and is not an engineer, the unfolding sequence of events seems perfectly clear and the inquest testimonies completely revealing.
The coroner will deliver the verdict, which has FA to do with the RAF/MOD, and what happens after that is, at this point, conjecture. From where I'm sitting, I can't see how anything is being held back.
As someone who has spent all of 1 hour 30 mins on a bang seat (pax in Jaguar circa 1980) and is not an engineer, the unfolding sequence of events seems perfectly clear and the inquest testimonies completely revealing.
The coroner will deliver the verdict, which has FA to do with the RAF/MOD, and what happens after that is, at this point, conjecture. From where I'm sitting, I can't see how anything is being held back.
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Agreed, but that is a design flaw that needs correcting, no way should you be able to fit a pin with the handle out of position.
But MoD won't publish it. This removes the opportunity to ask informed questions at the inquest. To me, this means Cornish is spot on....
So far I have seen no desire to cover up,any important information relevant to cockpit safety has been passed on to the operators,it just has not thus far been published into the public domain!
The CAA put the shackle bolt information into the public domain very quickly after the accident !
Both the Lincolnshire Echo and the BBC Look North had 7 individuals (including Sean Cunningham) entering the cockpit. The BBC also had the bit about 19 occasions.
Would everyone of those 7 have been expected to check the safety of the seat?
Would everyone of those 7 have been expected to check the safety of the seat?
I'm not sure everyone is listening. The seat appeared to be safe with the pins in the correct places. I too have seen what the pin and seat pan handle looked like when set in this condition - it looked safe, but tragically it wasn't.
I have no reason to doubt that the 7 people that checked the seat (including Sean) carried out their checks diligently and believed the seat to be safe. Quite honestly if I had checked it the list would have just increased to 8. To me (and the SI) the seat has a design flaw that allows the pin to be inserted when not safe. When I flew this seat type (Hawk & Tornado) I had no idea that this was possible.
The SI did not bury this bad news - as soon as this became known to them all users of the seat were alerted with photos and instructions on what to look for. They did not wait for the conclusion of the SI or the Inquest.
I have no reason to doubt that the 7 people that checked the seat (including Sean) carried out their checks diligently and believed the seat to be safe. Quite honestly if I had checked it the list would have just increased to 8. To me (and the SI) the seat has a design flaw that allows the pin to be inserted when not safe. When I flew this seat type (Hawk & Tornado) I had no idea that this was possible.
The SI did not bury this bad news - as soon as this became known to them all users of the seat were alerted with photos and instructions on what to look for. They did not wait for the conclusion of the SI or the Inquest.
Seat pan handles on previous Mks of seat have been modified before when it was found that the pin could be wrongly fitted. I'd be amazed that this problem was not known to MB. As for ths Mk 10 seat shackle, I would be asking the German Airforce why they spent a lot of money completely re-designing theirs.