RAF recruitment
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the Officer course is 28 weeks
36 weeks - crikey twice as long as when I went through. It was complete bolleaux then and just bearable, but 36 weeks? Really? You get less for ABH these days!
Thanks for the info, though, mate
Thanks for the info, though, mate
Up till the introduction of the SA80 RAF Regt did recruit training alongside RAF. It got split because the Regt recieved the weapon 2yrs before the rest of us so needed bespoke training. The Regt resisted returning to joint recruit training once we all had the SA80 although (up to 6yrs ago) the sylabus of training was identicle. A huge waste of money and resources.
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Yup Regt did their basic with us in my time, you could always get the Pongos to train them after basic.
Jointery
LJ,
I don't think there is an answer which will be popular. All 3 units have large estates which cost a fortune to run. Halton for example will be further emptied out with the move of SMTW to Worthy Down. The Old Workshops will be almost empty.
There are already at least 10 barrack blocks which are closed up and they are the ones by Maitland. Up at RTS it is very quiet after a few years ago when almost 4000 went through in one year.
My only suggestion is that there should be a Joint officer cadet training establishment. Then once 'basic' is over they then proceed to their professional training units. There is already joint training units at trade level and this will become the norm in the future.
I don't think there is an answer which will be popular. All 3 units have large estates which cost a fortune to run. Halton for example will be further emptied out with the move of SMTW to Worthy Down. The Old Workshops will be almost empty.
There are already at least 10 barrack blocks which are closed up and they are the ones by Maitland. Up at RTS it is very quiet after a few years ago when almost 4000 went through in one year.
My only suggestion is that there should be a Joint officer cadet training establishment. Then once 'basic' is over they then proceed to their professional training units. There is already joint training units at trade level and this will become the norm in the future.
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Joint officer training has been mooted for years now. However, I know that Dartmouth is not actually owned by the Navy, but granted to them for use as a training establishment by a local landowner (historic thing...!) hence it cannot be 'sold' by the Navy as they don't technically own it.
Not sure if there is anything similar with Cranwell or Sandhurst, nor whether they'd even be big enough to accommodate all 3 services...?
The difficulty is that none of the services would want to get rid of their iconic establishments and move to someone else's, so perhaps the only answer (if there were to be a joint location) would be to get rid of all 3 and build a bespoke establishment somewhere?
Not sure if there is anything similar with Cranwell or Sandhurst, nor whether they'd even be big enough to accommodate all 3 services...?
The difficulty is that none of the services would want to get rid of their iconic establishments and move to someone else's, so perhaps the only answer (if there were to be a joint location) would be to get rid of all 3 and build a bespoke establishment somewhere?
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In reply to The Wizard - I didn't say I was still in! However I was directly and indirectly employed by the RAF from 1958 to 2004, finishing my time working at a front-line fast jet base so I know what the RAF WAS like and what it was like when I left. I don't try to be amusing, it comes to me naturally.
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However, I know that Dartmouth is not actually owned by the Navy, but granted to them for use as a training establishment by a local landowner (historic thing...!) hence it cannot be 'sold' by the Navy as they don't technically own it.
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My only suggestion is that there should be a Joint officer cadet training establishment.
As the largest service the army would expect to take the lead so the course would most likely churn out infantry officers which would not meet the requirements of the RAF or RN. There could be a 'joint' ('Joint' in army-speak = 'army') first term before the 3 services split for more focused training but that would negate much of the potential savings. The graduation parade would look messy with the 3 differing uniforms or would everyone wear the same (army) uniform?
At the start of your career you need to be immersed in the culture & traditions of your own service, a course of 70% army/ 15% RN & 15% RAF (my guesstimate) would not achieve that for the smaller services.
Ken Scott: The graduation parade would look messy with the 3 differing uniforms or would everyone wear the same (army) uniform?
I always thought the army had a plenty of different (regimental) uniforms which looked, in your definition, 'messy' at graduations?
I always thought the army had a plenty of different (regimental) uniforms which looked, in your definition, 'messy' at graduations?
The Nip
As far as I'm aware, the SMTW move has been slipped right as there wasn't the money in the right years in the infra plan - earliest move is 5 years away. Anyway, SMTW is not the be-all/end-all for Old Workshops. There's Specialist Trg Sqn that does all 3 service's HSE/COSH/Environmental trg, JIAG (the new DMOC), the RAF Flight Safety Regional Occurence Investigation Team (that covers the whole of the South), a massive clothing section, the Station Swimming Pool, the Paint Shop and Station Workshops that does stuff for Halton/High Wycombe/Northolt under the Serco Multi-Activity Contract all within Old Workshops.
As for the Barrack Blocks on Maitland, some are used for Airman's Command Squadron to house the 100s of JNCOs/SNCOs that do JMLC and IMLC. Some are used for the Air Cadets, the Regt Flight uses another for CCS and other trg. Normally, there are only 5-6 empty and they are kept on care and maintenance for things like Op OLYMPICS (Halton took ~4,000 HMForces for trg for the Olympics and then housed ~600 for the games) and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee (drilling and housing the ~500 needed for the Windsor Drum Head Ceremony) - it gives the ability to take ~500 all ranks with ease for Resilience tasks in the South. It has taken over that role from the now defunct RAF Northolt. Many contingency plans use Halton due to its location and ability to accomodate at short notice.
As for the Recruit site, there are now ~2,000 up there over a year compared to your quoted maximum of 4,000. I cannot see how you would easily move Recruit Trg Sqn to anywhere else without a massive build program - I would estimate such a new build to cost ~£500M as you would Barrack Blocks, Classrooms, Trg Areas, Sports Facilities and a Parade Square; plus, I know of knowhere that has surplus of SFA and SLA for all the instructors and staff, so that would need at least 2x SLAM blocks and 3 dozen quarters!
Now if that is cheaper than running on Halton then I'll eat my hat!
Of course, some chiseller staff officer will have hatched a plan to get themselves an MBE/OBE without looking at the true cost of such a move. Have we got half a billion to spare? Nope, but it won't stop us saying that we need more redundancies next SDSR with an urgent infra program requirement...
LJ
All 3 units have large estates which cost a fortune to run. Halton for example will be further emptied out with the move of SMTW to Worthy Down. The Old Workshops will be almost empty.
There are already at least 10 barrack blocks which are closed up and they are the ones by Maitland. Up at RTS it is very quiet after a few years ago when almost 4000 went through in one year.
There are already at least 10 barrack blocks which are closed up and they are the ones by Maitland. Up at RTS it is very quiet after a few years ago when almost 4000 went through in one year.
As for the Barrack Blocks on Maitland, some are used for Airman's Command Squadron to house the 100s of JNCOs/SNCOs that do JMLC and IMLC. Some are used for the Air Cadets, the Regt Flight uses another for CCS and other trg. Normally, there are only 5-6 empty and they are kept on care and maintenance for things like Op OLYMPICS (Halton took ~4,000 HMForces for trg for the Olympics and then housed ~600 for the games) and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee (drilling and housing the ~500 needed for the Windsor Drum Head Ceremony) - it gives the ability to take ~500 all ranks with ease for Resilience tasks in the South. It has taken over that role from the now defunct RAF Northolt. Many contingency plans use Halton due to its location and ability to accomodate at short notice.
As for the Recruit site, there are now ~2,000 up there over a year compared to your quoted maximum of 4,000. I cannot see how you would easily move Recruit Trg Sqn to anywhere else without a massive build program - I would estimate such a new build to cost ~£500M as you would Barrack Blocks, Classrooms, Trg Areas, Sports Facilities and a Parade Square; plus, I know of knowhere that has surplus of SFA and SLA for all the instructors and staff, so that would need at least 2x SLAM blocks and 3 dozen quarters!
Now if that is cheaper than running on Halton then I'll eat my hat!
Of course, some chiseller staff officer will have hatched a plan to get themselves an MBE/OBE without looking at the true cost of such a move. Have we got half a billion to spare? Nope, but it won't stop us saying that we need more redundancies next SDSR with an urgent infra program requirement...
LJ
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Halton
From what I remember the decision to close Halton has already been screwed up once, when the Technical training school moving to Cosford in the early/ mid 90s. As far as I'm aware the plan was to shut Halton until at almost the last minute it turned out that the original terms of the purchase of the land from the Rothschild's means that MoD has to return the land back to its original condition and then have to sell it back to the family for £1.
It might just be an old wives tale though but someone must know if this is definitely the case.
It might just be an old wives tale though but someone must know if this is definitely the case.
Nope, the Estate was bought for £112,000 from the family in 1918 - freehold.
By the way, the cost of moving SMTW to Worthy Down is an eye watering £250-300M. Want to know why Defence is skint and we can't afford anything - decisions like these...
LJ
By the way, the cost of moving SMTW to Worthy Down is an eye watering £250-300M. Want to know why Defence is skint and we can't afford anything - decisions like these...
LJ
Halton
LJ,
I am fully aware of the make up of the Old Workshops and the quantity of pers therein. You correctly list various tenants located in the Workshops, but have you walked around and seen the amount of empty rooms/corridors?
Correct SMTW are not the be all, but they are still moving in 16. (as of today). The costs are indeed eye watering.
I did not say that you should relocate the basic training, I also did not say that 4000 was a maximum just highlighting the difference in throughput in a given year.
My point was there are 3 training units with large estates to run. With a dwindling number of recruits per annum, is this still viable?
I don't have an answer, I just put forward a suggestion. What would be the cost of refurbishing Halton House to a modern officers mess suitable for today's officers?
I am fully aware of the make up of the Old Workshops and the quantity of pers therein. You correctly list various tenants located in the Workshops, but have you walked around and seen the amount of empty rooms/corridors?
Correct SMTW are not the be all, but they are still moving in 16. (as of today). The costs are indeed eye watering.
I did not say that you should relocate the basic training, I also did not say that 4000 was a maximum just highlighting the difference in throughput in a given year.
My point was there are 3 training units with large estates to run. With a dwindling number of recruits per annum, is this still viable?
I don't have an answer, I just put forward a suggestion. What would be the cost of refurbishing Halton House to a modern officers mess suitable for today's officers?
I am a "today's officer" and there's nothing wrong with the Mess - so what if you have to buy a dressing gown to go to the loo, you're living in a Rothschild Mansion rather than a soul-less box like Daedalus at Cranwell or that carbuncle they've built at Winterbourne Gunner! 
I don't see the issue with the Rock's doing their Recruit Trg at Honington as the main output is FP (now with the Police with the move out of Henlow).
I don't see the issue with Halton continuing to do Recruit Trg when the numbers are as they are and it is so very expensive and not cost effective to move it when there are also other lodger units at Halton (plus being adjacent to the much smaller HQAir).
Whilst there are miniscule amounts of new officers going through Cranwell's IOT, it does so much more. All of RAF EFT (16 and soon 57 Sqn) and 3FTS with 45 Sqn to boot. OASC as well as HQ Air Cadets. I also hear rumours that RAFCAM from Henlow may well be moving there (makes sense). I just don't see the room for Recruit Trg without HUGE uneccessary expense in new infrastructure?
LJ
I don't see the issue with the Rock's doing their Recruit Trg at Honington as the main output is FP (now with the Police with the move out of Henlow).
I don't see the issue with Halton continuing to do Recruit Trg when the numbers are as they are and it is so very expensive and not cost effective to move it when there are also other lodger units at Halton (plus being adjacent to the much smaller HQAir).
Whilst there are miniscule amounts of new officers going through Cranwell's IOT, it does so much more. All of RAF EFT (16 and soon 57 Sqn) and 3FTS with 45 Sqn to boot. OASC as well as HQ Air Cadets. I also hear rumours that RAFCAM from Henlow may well be moving there (makes sense). I just don't see the room for Recruit Trg without HUGE uneccessary expense in new infrastructure?
LJ
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Living in the past.
You are living in the past. Be better value to the taxpayers if several of these establishments closed down and the remainder amalgamated. I never cease to be amazed how MOD have hung on so long with it all. The entire RN and RFA surface fleet operation could be ran from one naval base these days, let alone basic training.
HMS Raleigh (RN ratings) was practically dead last time I was there (demob). Massively underused.
But something else is behind all this.
For once a dose of "Thatcherism" should be applied and you should all get on with it..
HMS Raleigh (RN ratings) was practically dead last time I was there (demob). Massively underused.
But something else is behind all this.
For once a dose of "Thatcherism" should be applied and you should all get on with it..
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I always thought the army had a plenty of different (regimental) uniforms which looked, in your definition, 'messy' at graduations?
Willard
The only problem with building near anywhere decent is that everyone then starts to 'beak' about the cost of the housing and how unaffordable it is. Funny how the rest of the population manage to buy a house though - maybe because we in the military fritter our cash at Happy Hours, fast cars/bikes and holidays!!!
The B Word
The only problem with building near anywhere decent is that everyone then starts to 'beak' about the cost of the housing and how unaffordable it is. Funny how the rest of the population manage to buy a house though - maybe because we in the military fritter our cash at Happy Hours, fast cars/bikes and holidays!!!
The B Word