Red Arrows makeover for 2014.
Joined: Nov 2011
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From: Southern Europe
CyberH, the sacred cow paradox, paraphrased from Wikipedia:
to distinguish the death of an ordinary ox, which, being of concern to no one, may be put quickly out of its agony, from that of a sacred cow, which must be solicitously guarded so that it can die its agonizing death without any interference.
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From: not scotland
WR
I don't think the paltry savings made in binning the reds will suddenly find ourselves in a financial position to deal with China's aircraft carriers. In addition,the value of the Red Arrows far outweighs the cost.
I don't think the paltry savings made in binning the reds will suddenly find ourselves in a financial position to deal with China's aircraft carriers. In addition,the value of the Red Arrows far outweighs the cost.
Gentleman Aviator
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Teetering Towers - somewhere in the Shires
In addition,the value of the Red Arrows far outweighs the cost.
But just try explaining the difference between "value" and "cost" to a bean counter.
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From: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
" But just try explaining the difference between "value" and "cost" to a bean counter. "
The "cost" might be cheaper initially but you have to buy it more than once
as the "cheaper" item wither doesn't last as long so needs replacing or you
get something that has a high follow on cost. You spend a $1 but need to
spend more $ on an on going basis.
Value, you spend a $1 but get $5 in return for that $ spent.
Price, Service and Delivery - you can always have two but very rarely all three !
"The "cost" might be cheaper initially but you have to buy it more than once
as the "cheaper" item wither doesn't last as long so needs replacing or you
get something that has a high follow on cost. You spend a $1 but need to
spend more $ on an on going basis.
Value, you spend a $1 but get $5 in return for that $ spent.
Price, Service and Delivery - you can always have two but very rarely all three !
Joined: Feb 2013
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From: England
Make believe.
The Red Arrows, whilst a truly fantastic flying wonder and still something many in the country is undoubtedly proud of are an.... what's the word...anachronism (yep I had to look it up) - I remember now.. it means a thing that fits in the past and not the present.
As is Scampton. Its just plain silly to keep on with it ....its from another rapidly departing age. Its an unnecessary expense. Wake up.
Look - I could never get my head around the RAF at times. In Basra, in the COB when we were rocketed at night etc by those lads downtown, invariably the planes that to provide cover for us were American, I used to read the I-net reports the next day to confirm. F16s or F15s or sometimes USN or USMC F18s. I appreciated those American men and women. Where were the RAF then when we needed our real planes? (ok I know they were on a rota and sometimes Tornado used to come in as well but.......) they missed a trick there, for me. It was the major Brit base FFS.
They continue to miss the trick in many ways.
Its no good barrel rolling around over Scarborough or Margate when in the real world the RAF lacks so much. Emperor/clothes. Cloth/cut.
*While we are on about the Reds someone answer me this. I've locked my diary away but I'm sure from memory, January or very early February 2003. Off the beach at Cyprus (well I was). In the morning the Red arrows taxied and flew just as we were starting a planned flying/boating/everything we had practice assault with RM and the whole shebang timed to the second. The whole thing seemed to ground to a shuddering stop because the RA were flying a display thing at the same time.
Did the RAF man in charge get sacked on the spot and sent home for this? That was the rumour I heard later. Anyway thanks for that Red Arrows - we did re-schedule and get the thing just about back on track later.
I just want to know if that rumour was true?
As is Scampton. Its just plain silly to keep on with it ....its from another rapidly departing age. Its an unnecessary expense. Wake up.
Look - I could never get my head around the RAF at times. In Basra, in the COB when we were rocketed at night etc by those lads downtown, invariably the planes that to provide cover for us were American, I used to read the I-net reports the next day to confirm. F16s or F15s or sometimes USN or USMC F18s. I appreciated those American men and women. Where were the RAF then when we needed our real planes? (ok I know they were on a rota and sometimes Tornado used to come in as well but.......) they missed a trick there, for me. It was the major Brit base FFS.
They continue to miss the trick in many ways.
Its no good barrel rolling around over Scarborough or Margate when in the real world the RAF lacks so much. Emperor/clothes. Cloth/cut.
*While we are on about the Reds someone answer me this. I've locked my diary away but I'm sure from memory, January or very early February 2003. Off the beach at Cyprus (well I was). In the morning the Red arrows taxied and flew just as we were starting a planned flying/boating/everything we had practice assault with RM and the whole shebang timed to the second. The whole thing seemed to ground to a shuddering stop because the RA were flying a display thing at the same time.
Did the RAF man in charge get sacked on the spot and sent home for this? That was the rumour I heard later. Anyway thanks for that Red Arrows - we did re-schedule and get the thing just about back on track later.
I just want to know if that rumour was true?
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Back to the fold in the map
Hangarshuffle. I too was in the COB when the locals were throwing stuff at us (07/08) and there are many and varied reasons (and some that cannot be mentioned on here) that most of the time it was US aircraft that pitched in. What you perhaps do not know is that all aircraft were allocated to the JFAC at the Deid and tasked from Baghdad according to Coalition priorities. So, as the GR4 was more capable in some areas than the F16/F18 it therefore tasked accordingly - and this task was not burning holes in the sky above Basra at 20K to lob the occasional bomb at the local in his jinglie truck who may, or may not have been actually seen in the process of lighting the blue touch paper. There's a lot more to this than just having a cheap shot at the light blue - who were just as frustrated at what was happening as you apparently were. If the truth were known, you should be casting your ire at our erstewhile "brown" colleagues - who assured me at the time that they were the most "air minded" brigade in the British Army (if they were then God help the rest of them) and assigned the task of organising their air support to a passed-over Rifles major - who to my knowledge never attended the weekly "Air Apportionment VTC". Just saying like.........
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
Get rid of the Reds and you will definitely not see the savings spent elsewhere. The money will be swallowed up and lost forever. Once gone, the Reds would never be resurrected and the savings will have vanished into thin air. If you want to save some money, bin those awful tv recruitment adverts.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Back in Geordie Land
It's been said so many times.........get rid of the Red Arrows and save circa £6m. So what?
Does anyone on this forum seriously think that the money will even go back into the RAF budget? Does anyone even seriously think it will stay in the defence budget? Of course it won't. It will go to pay for a bumnch of illegal imigrants or asylum seekers. Get real boys!
Hangarshuffle
Ref your comment about Scampton........do you have any idea what other units are located at Scampton? 1ACC, CRC, MMU and poss TCW, TATCU. Where would you put them if you got rid of Scampton?
Look at Brize.....maxed out beyond belief, Waddo.......full to burst. The fact is, there is no where else for units to go. Once a Station goes, its lost forever. We aren't building any more bases, FACT.
So, leave the Arrows alone, as has been said, they bring into this country far, far more than they cost. the same goes for Scampton, leave it alone.
Winco
Does anyone on this forum seriously think that the money will even go back into the RAF budget? Does anyone even seriously think it will stay in the defence budget? Of course it won't. It will go to pay for a bumnch of illegal imigrants or asylum seekers. Get real boys!
Hangarshuffle
Ref your comment about Scampton........do you have any idea what other units are located at Scampton? 1ACC, CRC, MMU and poss TCW, TATCU. Where would you put them if you got rid of Scampton?
Look at Brize.....maxed out beyond belief, Waddo.......full to burst. The fact is, there is no where else for units to go. Once a Station goes, its lost forever. We aren't building any more bases, FACT.
So, leave the Arrows alone, as has been said, they bring into this country far, far more than they cost. the same goes for Scampton, leave it alone.
Winco
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
options
Not sure if the £6 million a yearly cost of running the Reds or a one off payback but no doubt this has been thrashed out in earlier threads and money not the only issue.
Personally I have more time for the soldiers involved in ceremonials like the trooping of the colours, Guards and Royal Horse Art etc because they all can serve on the frontline and do some of the dirty jobs allocated to the British Army while the Reds are unable to occupy a joint role to the RAF.
Given the current and future manning and financial constraints on all services is it sensible or acceptable for the RAF to run a pure display team? Do any other services replicate this or are their display teams engaged in wider roles?
A future compromise might be for the Reds to retreat back to where they started many years ago attached to the AFTS at Valley where they can help to train what few pilots go through these days and fly a more limited programme of displays in the summer.
Not an argument that is likely to be settled and suspect the pros and cons will continue to be a source of debate for years to come.
Personally I have more time for the soldiers involved in ceremonials like the trooping of the colours, Guards and Royal Horse Art etc because they all can serve on the frontline and do some of the dirty jobs allocated to the British Army while the Reds are unable to occupy a joint role to the RAF.
Given the current and future manning and financial constraints on all services is it sensible or acceptable for the RAF to run a pure display team? Do any other services replicate this or are their display teams engaged in wider roles?
A future compromise might be for the Reds to retreat back to where they started many years ago attached to the AFTS at Valley where they can help to train what few pilots go through these days and fly a more limited programme of displays in the summer.
Not an argument that is likely to be settled and suspect the pros and cons will continue to be a source of debate for years to come.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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From: Lincolnshire
Old HAT even.
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From: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
BigPants
"while the Reds are unable to occupy a joint role to the RAF."
If the push came to shove, the pilots can still be returned to a front line Squadron if needed.
"while the Reds are unable to occupy a joint role to the RAF."
If the push came to shove, the pilots can still be returned to a front line Squadron if needed.
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From: Downeast
The Blue Angels and Thunderbirds assigned aircraft can be made combat ready in just a few hours.....although their paint schemes would be a bit dicey until redone into operational paint schemes.
Why should the RAF Red Arrows not do the same....if their continued existence is at risk due to the current practice of using the aircraft they do?
Why should the RAF Red Arrows not do the same....if their continued existence is at risk due to the current practice of using the aircraft they do?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Lincolnshire
SASLess, I guess it is a problem of mass.
9 or even 5 FJ in the RAF is a large proportion of our front line.
Similarly the number of pilots already seems to be a potential matter of contention. In your case you probably have enough operational aircrew not to need your AT aircrew until they are back up to speed.
9 or even 5 FJ in the RAF is a large proportion of our front line.
Similarly the number of pilots already seems to be a potential matter of contention. In your case you probably have enough operational aircrew not to need your AT aircrew until they are back up to speed.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Was the backseater in the Arrow, doing Air to Air photography of a Jag?
I can imagine the brief now, we'd like a picture of a Jaguar in the vertical
I can imagine the brief now, we'd like a picture of a Jaguar in the vertical
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: UK
SASless
Interesting claim about the potential readiness of the Blue Angels et al. I remember seeing a recent documentary on them which suggested that the airframes were the ones that the fleet no longer needed/wanted.
Interesting claim about the potential readiness of the Blue Angels et al. I remember seeing a recent documentary on them which suggested that the airframes were the ones that the fleet no longer needed/wanted.
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
Red Arrows Hawk frontline capability?
I left in 1995 but flew 2000 hrs on the T1 and even then bolting a gun and missiles on it would not have been considered adequate for service over say Iraq.
Today I understand the MOD has quite stringent rules for prepping an aircraft for service in a hostile environment so unless the aircraft flown by The Reds had this kit in place it seems unlikely they could fulfil any tactical role.
Equally, pilots cannot just flip out of a Hawk into a Typhoon or GR4 without being current on the tactics and weapons etc.
The last Royal Yacht Brittania, in theory it had a war role in reality it was never deployed to The Falklands or even for used in disaster relief. I feel The Reds are in a similar position, they do what they do very well but have no meaningful secondary capability.
Today I understand the MOD has quite stringent rules for prepping an aircraft for service in a hostile environment so unless the aircraft flown by The Reds had this kit in place it seems unlikely they could fulfil any tactical role.
Equally, pilots cannot just flip out of a Hawk into a Typhoon or GR4 without being current on the tactics and weapons etc.
The last Royal Yacht Brittania, in theory it had a war role in reality it was never deployed to The Falklands or even for used in disaster relief. I feel The Reds are in a similar position, they do what they do very well but have no meaningful secondary capability.