RAF Air Engineer Branch
Cant imagine any of us doing that Avtur 
Now what was that CB we pulled to stop the back end doing their simulated tactical work!!!!!????? always ended up coming out of D807 early!!!!
Now what was that CB we pulled to stop the back end doing their simulated tactical work!!!!!????? always ended up coming out of D807 early!!!!
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It's certainly sad that the end of the FE trade is approaching. From my time as a Ground Engineer on the C130K fleet I know of many who were worthy of the soubriquet " Engineer", some less so, as were some of my fellow GEs (perhaps myself included). I do believe though that the Flight Engineers job and the Ground Engineers job (I'm not talking a ground tradesman, but a trained 4 trade Ground Engineer) were as alike as a Pilot and a Chef. The Flight Engineers operated the systems, most had a spectacular understanding of the systems they operated and had my full respect for their diagnostic abilities. Having landed,however, the job of organising the spares, the hire of the crane for the prop change etc was often best left to the old bloke with no hair who usually resided in a hammock down the back. Horses for courses perhaps, but I'm not too sure that a man who had obtained and maintained Flight Engineer status would be happy to become a "flight hammock dweller". To all the Flight Engineers I send respects, a hope that you all fall on your feet and a big thanks to you all for keeping me alive for years.
Smudge
Smudge
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Smujsmith, I completely agree - apart from the 'spectacular understanding' bit. I just don't know how I managed to blag my way through all those years!
Most GEs were the canine's gonads as far as I was concerned as I could keep my flying gloves clean for eating sarnies and so on and so forth.
It'll be a sad day when the last FE goes, but the same could be said for all the other trades too.
My best wishes to all - Dengue Dude (aka Brian May).
Most GEs were the canine's gonads as far as I was concerned as I could keep my flying gloves clean for eating sarnies and so on and so forth.
It'll be a sad day when the last FE goes, but the same could be said for all the other trades too.
My best wishes to all - Dengue Dude (aka Brian May).
Hey Dude (excuse my familiarity) don't take it bad (as some long haired songsters once sang), I'm sure that all of the Flight Engineers who I served with had to pass their regular checks, hence the respect for their abilities, and you could have been one of them. Having enjoyed my time as a Ground Engineer, it would be dishonest to suggest that any of the Aircrew lacked in capability or professional competence. The first Flight Engineer I ever met was a chap called Bert Poulton. He was part of the RAF Colerne Flight Test Crew circa 1971, and knew more about Albert than I ever did or will. Anyone who can take a few minutes while the rest of his crew are waiting (Sqdn Ldr Captain in a rush to get to the pub) post flight test, to explain to a newly qualified Jnr Tech why the 2g pull up and climb was needed to test the safety valve after major servicing is someone worthy of respect, and appreciated. Cost savings and efficiency are truly marvellous things, but sometimes achieved to the detriment of the old "esprit de corps" etc. I hoped that when the service finally waived goodbye to the Flight Engineer, they would have ensured that current career commitments were honoured, I'm sure that many would be competent in other aspects of Aircrew employment. I just hope that the lads are not shafted, as is often the case.
Smudge
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My first flight was with Bert, when I was an SAC on Brown team at Colerne. That's why the references to a prop change made me smile . . .
A few years later, I ended up guesting a few times for the Airtest Crew. That made me smile too.
I was happy to have FE as a career (the noun) but accept its inevitable demise. Have fun, they still need 'Hammock Dwellers', and even have lady ones too apparently, 'Black Harry' was never a lady (when I knew him).
A few years later, I ended up guesting a few times for the Airtest Crew. That made me smile too.
I was happy to have FE as a career (the noun) but accept its inevitable demise. Have fun, they still need 'Hammock Dwellers', and even have lady ones too apparently, 'Black Harry' was never a lady (when I knew him).
Last edited by Dengue_Dude; 30th Nov 2013 at 03:43. Reason: Spelin
Fergi,
I think it was Z3 P1 F37 (or thereabouts) for the very annoying ACT system that only the AEOs seemed to enjoy. I believe there used to be a china graph circle around that fuse for use in emergencies!!!!
I think it was Z3 P1 F37 (or thereabouts) for the very annoying ACT system that only the AEOs seemed to enjoy. I believe there used to be a china graph circle around that fuse for use in emergencies!!!!
BTW, if you were that fine chap who taught me at FYN in 85 on Applied Flight, then very best wishes to you. If you are not, then best wishes anyway, and hope life in NZ is as good as Canada.
I just hope that the lads are not shafted, as is often the case
Indeed; hence my reason for this post in trying to find out what the "disposal" plan is (if any).
Your kind words about the Branch are appreciated, but the FE/GE relationship was one of the main reasons the ME fleets were as serviceable as they could be, given some of the circumstances and support.
GD107
I too fell foul of the latter on the ITC (as did quite a few), but survived due to a boss who was clearly more sightful than he was. Completely understand your sentiments: I saw some great people and potentially first class engineers chopped needlessly due to the limitations of those who thought they were perfect (and irreproachable) in that "instructional" position. There was likely similar read-across to other Branches at FYN in the 80's. Oddly enough, once I graduated to the "real" world a year or so later, it became completely obvious why those individuals were there in the first place.
Best wishes.
I too fell foul of the latter on the ITC (as did quite a few), but survived due to a boss who was clearly more sightful than he was. Completely understand your sentiments: I saw some great people and potentially first class engineers chopped needlessly due to the limitations of those who thought they were perfect (and irreproachable) in that "instructional" position. There was likely similar read-across to other Branches at FYN in the 80's. Oddly enough, once I graduated to the "real" world a year or so later, it became completely obvious why those individuals were there in the first place.
Best wishes.
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I now look back at Finningly ITC with a smile on my face, and, I must thank Aunty Betty for funding my initial steps into the world of aviation. My Flt Cdr was Jock Penman; a thoroughly tough nut, but a very fair and decent bloke. As with all groups of professionals, there will always be the odd one or two who will slip through the net and cause mayhem whilst climbing the ladder to their perceived platform of stardom.
Without any shadow of doubt I can say that 99.9% of everyone I met as a FE (or Air Eng) were true professionals and that this is, perhaps, testament to the quality of training that we received at both Topcliffe and Finningly.
I believe that the best (RAF) aviation years (within my timeline) were the 70's and 80's where we still had the financial backing to fly training sorties to all parts of the globe. Sadly, such things as H&S, new rules & regulation, politics, and finance etc, brought about many changes that weren't palatable and that the thin end of the wedge was firmly in-place when I demobbed to BA in 1987.
As a civilian (QinetiQ) FE I was very fortunate to, very briefly, return to fly the RAF TriStar and it was a joy to be able to fly with the RAF boys again. Great memories of a fabulous aeroplane!
My civilian FE flying career has now, just like the military, run its course and, without any three-crew aeroplanes remaining available, I've been fortunate enough to maintain an aviation related desk job. Had I not been stubborn to keep searching for FEs jobs around the planet I should have studied for a pilot position whilst I was young enough to do so. So, that's my message to all of you younger FEs... take a firm grip of your youthful brain cells and get sat in the right-hand seat. You've got everything going for you... do it!
TCF
Without any shadow of doubt I can say that 99.9% of everyone I met as a FE (or Air Eng) were true professionals and that this is, perhaps, testament to the quality of training that we received at both Topcliffe and Finningly.
I believe that the best (RAF) aviation years (within my timeline) were the 70's and 80's where we still had the financial backing to fly training sorties to all parts of the globe. Sadly, such things as H&S, new rules & regulation, politics, and finance etc, brought about many changes that weren't palatable and that the thin end of the wedge was firmly in-place when I demobbed to BA in 1987.
As a civilian (QinetiQ) FE I was very fortunate to, very briefly, return to fly the RAF TriStar and it was a joy to be able to fly with the RAF boys again. Great memories of a fabulous aeroplane!
My civilian FE flying career has now, just like the military, run its course and, without any three-crew aeroplanes remaining available, I've been fortunate enough to maintain an aviation related desk job. Had I not been stubborn to keep searching for FEs jobs around the planet I should have studied for a pilot position whilst I was young enough to do so. So, that's my message to all of you younger FEs... take a firm grip of your youthful brain cells and get sat in the right-hand seat. You've got everything going for you... do it!
TCF
You guys are confusing me..what are all those hyrogliphics like ITC ATC etc....did the Air Eng morph into something else or were these jobs suited for grounded Air Eng's.
The RAF Air Engineer was a product of WW2 Bombers and the then function was more like a flying crew chief, or a ships engineer, than what eventually emerged. Due to technical/physical complexities, in those days, the emphasis then was on 'how to fix' the equipment whilst airborne rather than on 'how to support' the aeroplane in its complete task, is today. The multi-crew system meant everyone was a specialist.
The RAF around late 50/early 60 decided to expand Transport Command...but a missing ingredient regarding the A/C selected, was...'What is an Air Engineer and, in light of this advanced technology, what should be his new function?'.
Sqn Ldr Dave Nelson and Fl Lt Jim Mutsaars (both Air Engs) and others whose names, sadly, I've forgotten, were tasked to define this new role and lay out a training syllabus for the VC10 and Belfast. They generally followed the Britannia and Comet fleets whose Air Eng's consisted of direct entry aircrew from around 1950 and National Servicemen who extended service and, of course, some of the ex-wartime stalwarts, still medically fit; and some import of information from BOAC.
The C130 fleet were originally trained in the USA on type.
On Coastal Command.....I have no knowledge.
Thus became the training that I 'endured', about which I wrote in a previous post in this thread.
My colleague John King, after graduating from OCTU, was sent to RAF Topcliffe to 'I believe' set up a formal Air Eng Training School. The students would often visit BZN to get a 'feel' for their new job description and I was their host on many visits.
Our emphasis was to advise they would be system operators and not simply fixers...so learning all aspects of flying was as important as to how something works. We let them fly the VC10 Sim to get a feel for the pilots job...good fun!
Some AEops were even re-trained to be Air Eng, which was also a good fit.
I left the RAF in 1974 so never saw the transition from shiny VC10 to tanker...did that make a difference to the type of training Air Engs received?
The RAF Air Engineer was a product of WW2 Bombers and the then function was more like a flying crew chief, or a ships engineer, than what eventually emerged. Due to technical/physical complexities, in those days, the emphasis then was on 'how to fix' the equipment whilst airborne rather than on 'how to support' the aeroplane in its complete task, is today. The multi-crew system meant everyone was a specialist.
The RAF around late 50/early 60 decided to expand Transport Command...but a missing ingredient regarding the A/C selected, was...'What is an Air Engineer and, in light of this advanced technology, what should be his new function?'.
Sqn Ldr Dave Nelson and Fl Lt Jim Mutsaars (both Air Engs) and others whose names, sadly, I've forgotten, were tasked to define this new role and lay out a training syllabus for the VC10 and Belfast. They generally followed the Britannia and Comet fleets whose Air Eng's consisted of direct entry aircrew from around 1950 and National Servicemen who extended service and, of course, some of the ex-wartime stalwarts, still medically fit; and some import of information from BOAC.
The C130 fleet were originally trained in the USA on type.
On Coastal Command.....I have no knowledge.
Thus became the training that I 'endured', about which I wrote in a previous post in this thread.
My colleague John King, after graduating from OCTU, was sent to RAF Topcliffe to 'I believe' set up a formal Air Eng Training School. The students would often visit BZN to get a 'feel' for their new job description and I was their host on many visits.
Our emphasis was to advise they would be system operators and not simply fixers...so learning all aspects of flying was as important as to how something works. We let them fly the VC10 Sim to get a feel for the pilots job...good fun!
Some AEops were even re-trained to be Air Eng, which was also a good fit.
I left the RAF in 1974 so never saw the transition from shiny VC10 to tanker...did that make a difference to the type of training Air Engs received?
Last edited by Davita; 1st Dec 2013 at 09:21.
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around late 50/early 60 decided to expand Transport Command...
Goudie...I think your memory serves you well because I seem to recall the same, although I think it was short-lived.
I started on the 3rd entry of the established Air Eng program that I posted about, but I cannot recall which year that was....so long ago. I'm thinking around 1960.
Anyone else remember this, or was recruited as a short-tour Air Eng?
btw I do recall, when doing the Air Eng course, there was a requirement for NCO helicopter pilots. I applied but was told I needed to complete my current course first...I think I lost enthusiasm later.
I started on the 3rd entry of the established Air Eng program that I posted about, but I cannot recall which year that was....so long ago. I'm thinking around 1960.
Anyone else remember this, or was recruited as a short-tour Air Eng?
btw I do recall, when doing the Air Eng course, there was a requirement for NCO helicopter pilots. I applied but was told I needed to complete my current course first...I think I lost enthusiasm later.
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