RAF Air Engineer Branch
 

With the Tri-Star fleet nearing retirement, and the Nimrods, VC-10, and C-130K fleets having exited stage left; the operational flying element of the Air Engineer Branch will rest on the shoulders of a small E3-D fleet.

As an ex-Air Eng, I was wondering what the future holds for those wishing to remain in the Service, and who are not part of the E3-D emporium? Is the Service making any attempt to find them other equally responsible/challenging posts, or is it making it “difficult” to remain in? Is re-branching to Loadie generally available; is it offering palatable options to leave for those deemed “surplus to Service requirements”, or has the issue not been adequately addressed (if at all)?

I would love to hear what the Grand Plan is for the remaining members of the Branch, and perhaps (I hope), hear some war stories and anecdotes from the pprune Air Eng fraternity, and from those that had the pleasure of our company (or not) on many great aircraft: I think our reputation, both professionally and socially was usually memorable (I’m sure Smudge has a story or three)...

To all the Air Engineers remaining in the Service, and to those who have served and left since the formation of our Branch circa 1941, the very best wishes, and happiness to you and your families: Ours was a unique Branch for many reasons, but for me, it was 27 years of paid fun.

Very nice post Avtur and, as one 'of the Air Eng few', may I say thank you for your kind comments.

The Air Eng branch, imo, was always going to be an issue. Unlike Bomber Command's dictum that all aircrew should be commissioned, Transport Command did not have the same attitude and the different crew ranking structure has indeed come back to haunt.
If all Air Eng's had been Commissioned Officers then they could more easily be absorbed into the Service just as Navigators were. I could never understand, when I sat back to back in a Hastings...and side by side in a VC10, why the Nav was a Flt. Lt. and I was a Flt. Sgt.

Some might say the Air Eng didn't have the couth to be commissioned but to them I respond...If they could commission (ex F/Sgt and Training Capt.) Jolly Jack Huntington of Hastings fame...why not!

In my time I broached this subject at every opportunity to whit, probably to shut me up, they sent me to OCTU, where I graduated No2.
To this day I believe they didn't want to give me the sword because my legs are short...they would need to cut the tip off and re-weld for the next graduating course.:uhoh:

I'd also love to hear anecdotes from other Air Eng's (Flt Eng's). I'll add some of my own later in an attempt to keep this thread relevant and interesting.

Can I direct you two fine gents to The Flight Engineer Association

Now accepting memberships from our colonial brethren as well :ok:

At Waddo, many years ago, the FLIGHT Engineer on the Lancaster was actually a GE WO. He had had operational experience on the Lancaster but with the post-war draw down had remustered to ground eng.

Echoing Davita's question about SNCO FE, at the same time as above, our Senior Ops Assistants or deputy Ops Officers, not sure what we called them, were all Sgt Navs. Again they had come from the 4-engined bomber force but not been offered commissions. We commissioned types would be the duty ops off when aircraft were airborne and would leg it out the door as soon as the last aircraft landed leaving the SNCO as the duty man covering QRA Ops. Something slightly odd you may think :).

Today would there be the same opportunities for highly qualified FE to transfer to GE? I would doubt it as they would either have to drop rank or block promotions for a time.

Davita:-
Why not indeed! As a proud apprentice of Jolly Jack, that pride was never so great as when I had managed somehow to put a Hastie down on all three points simultaneously having called "Cut", for Captain Jack to say "F...ing Sow's Ear, Lad, I have control", as he took over to roll. :ok:

The point was of course that it was my landing, as against non-tactical ones which were only mine if we bounced or crunched, rather than the Engineer's if we kissed on following the call to "Slow Cut". :{

If it is any consolation, of all the Flight Deck 'trades' that I missed after changing to two pilot operation (on going Civvie), it was that of the Flight Engineers that I missed most (especially when the PRV stuck closed when failing to start a RR Spey on a 1-11 on a dark wet night away from base).

Joni Mitchell:-

Pontius quotes "Today would there be the same opportunities for highly qualified FE to transfer to GE? I would doubt it as they would either have to drop rank or block promotions for a time."

I would suggest that the GE ranks are so specialized that an Air Eng would generally not be a good fit, except with extensive and expensive re-training.

I was a near retirement F/E with an airline when its future purchase of A/C indicated the demise of the F/E. Some of the younger and eager F/E's were offered pilot training. I think this was a better fit as the F/Es function on advanced commercial jets was more like a pilot than as an engineer. Some of our senior Captains and Crew Managers were previously Flight Engineers.

btw, on this forum is there a quote function instead of copy/paste?

Good response chugalug...if I recall jolly Jack was not an advocate of wheelies...and, no matter the call from the pilot flying, the tail wheeled Hastings had to be positioned so the pilot (excuse my pre-commission language) couldn't see sh*t.
For those not knowing the Hastings, out of the side window, the Air Eng could see how far the stbd wheel was in the air and pulled the throttles off accordingly....despite the pilot screaming 'CUT!' or more casually 'slow cut' or praying 'slooowww cuuut'..... and waiting for the bounce!

As chug says the co-pilot was never credited by Jack...or hardly ever, so your landing, I suspect, must have been a classic.
However, his training produced some mighty fine transport pilots that I have had the privilege of flying with, for many years, after my tours on Hastings.

When I was flown in a 10 Sqn Voyager, I think they had an Air Eng operating the air to air refuelling console? So maybe there still is niche operational flying posts lurking out there for FE's?

No-one has said it yet, so I may as well be the first:

There will be a lot of ugly fat women around the world seriously upset by the demise of the Air Eng brotherhood! :ok:

"There will be a lot of ugly fat women around the world seriously upset by the demise of the Air Eng brotherhood! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...ies/thumbs.gif"

And a few of the prettier ones breathing a sigh of relief no doubt!!!:)

Davita
 

Jolly Jack,


There was a story doing the rounds that Jack was sent, kicking and screaming, to Jurby to learn how to be an Hofficer - but on day one he was bawled out by a drill corporal, to whom Jack replied, 'Fook Off'.
Back to Colerne or wherever he went!


On the next occasion he was persuaded to attend, he went with strict instructions from his boss, staish, AOC and all, to quietly keep his cool!

Thanks TBT for the link; now registered.

BTW Party Animal; fat ugly woman are still fair game; once an Eng, always an Eng.

As a Licenced engineer it was a couple of weeks to convert to Air Eng( think 3 ) I knew one that did onto the Tristar (Civi) he was an Air Eng until they phased them out (about a year) then they sponsored and paid for his ATPL complete.

Avtur - respect! ;)

nutloose quotes "Civvies go from GE to Air Eng in a couple of weeks" Then we must have been dummies in the RAF.

From being an ex Halton Apprentice, followed by 5 years working at all levels of GE, I applied for Air Eng as advertised. We all went through the same selection process to select Officers and Aircrew, at RAF Biggin Hill.

No matter our base fitter skills, those selected all spent a number of months at a training establishment near Blackpool....(RAF Weeton?) learning airframe and engine theory and practice. That was tough...it was summer in Blackpool!
This was followed by a similar time at RAF Melksham for Electrical and Instrument training. Swindon...not so great!
Depending on the aircraft we were selected to crew...I went on Hastings, others went on Beverly and Shackletons, determined the amount of time we waited for a conversion to type course. I think Hastings at Colerne was the longest as I did so many supernumery crew flights, being instructed by line Air Engs to see how it was done....they said I could have graduated there and then. The one consolation offered was those like me, under the rank of Sgt., were promoted to acting Sgt.
The final act was conversion at RAF Thorney Island and night sorties at RAF El Adem in Libya.

The total time was about a year before we graduated and got our proper stripes/wing, and posted to a Sqn. I went to Changi and straight into a war zone as 'confrontasi' with Indonesia had just started...and was shot at on a drop zone near Kuching...I had volunteered for Changi hoping to get a tan!

When I converted to the VC10, courtesy of BOAC at Cranebank, our class had 2 BOAC F/Es. They were embarrassed to be consistantly at the bottom of each phase class results. However, they excelled when it came to operating the simulator. I'd been on Hastings previously...and never before been in a simulator.

Later, to get my civilian CAA Flight Engineer licence, I had to sit an exam based on the BOAC VC10 A/C and Aviation Law. The only deference given to my experience was my log book time...and the RAF only count T.O to Land...... whereas Commercial Flt Eng's count chock to chock.

So to respond to nutloose comment at the front of this post....in the 1960s-1975 did discrimination prevent military aviators from easily joining civilian aviation?
Anyone have evidence?

I don't know about re-mustering in today's RAF, but in the civilian world the standard crew now is two pilots and it won't be long before one of them is made redundant. ;)

When at Big Airways in the late 70s they were shutting down the B707 and VC10 fleets. There were no F/E vacancies in the Tristar and B747 fleets but many 747-200s on order. Narrow-body F/E's were then given the option to convert to cabin crew pending delivery of the new B747-200s and two of my friends took that option. When they reached the top of the list to convert to B747 F/E they declined and continued as FAs. More perks, apparently.

Capt Jack's 'blood change' at the Jurby Rupert factory was hugely mirth-producing at the time. It seemed highly unlikely that he would pass, although his 'oppo', Johnny Loveridge was thought to have a sporting chance.
The fact was that the two of them were an embarrassment to 'officialdom' at the time as our Lords and Masters had decreed that ONLY Ruperts could be in charge of large aircraft, yet here were two of the indisputably best qualified instructors, Jack on Hastings and Johnny on BOTH Hastings and Bevs!! Initial fudge was to introduce the concept of 'Training Captains' but ultimately it had to be the 'retread' route.
One of Jack's attempts at 'social improvement' came when the first female Loadmasters were stationed at Dishforth. We were all warned to modify our language (a much different world then!). Jack was a regular in the evening bridge sessions in the Mess and was overhead to remark, after an unfortunate play - " Dash it partner, you've trumped my :mad: ace!!" Could well be apocryphal but very Huntingdon-esque.

Davita: don't forget that when BA started retiring Tristars, quite a number of their FEs went through pilot training at BAe Flight Training, Prestwick and subsequently continued their BA careers on aircraft such as the 757.

If there is any justice, any Eng wishing to gain a commission should be offered a place on the SERE* course and then a place in a suitable branch (including pilot training if appropriate). It would be crazy to throw away all that airmanship and experience, especially as ex-FEs make excellent multicrew pilots, by and large (as do ex-cabin crew in my experience).

(* Do they still call it SERE? Without wishing to insult anyone who has done what we called "The Vicars and Tarts Course", there really should be no need to make experienced NCO aircrew do a full IOT, should there?)

.

Moggiee, I think only Master Aircrew were qualified for the SERE Commissioning Cse. Not sure what the current policy is for Commissioning NCA into other (non-flying) Branches or for Pilot, if that option even exists currently.

Talking of pilots...On the Kipper fleet, we used to get the occasional fast jet pilot who was curious to see what the Nimrod was all about. I guess it was really an excuse to sample the curries, doughnuts, and DCS.

On the transit back from the on-task area, the Captain/1st pilot would invite the FJ pilot to have a fly. The brief was that the Nimrod was very unstable at high level (well FL280 ish back then), and speed control was critical, with a plus/minus 2 KIAS tolerance from the target speed. Oh how we giggled as I tested the stall warning stick shakers whenever the speed reduced by 2 kts, and then briefly “tested” the Mach trimmer (aircraft pitches up slightly with a horn sounding and big red light) as he hastily powered up, struggling to control the speed.

It was always great to see the Noel Edmunds “Gotsha” expression once they realised what was going on. Not sure the back end was ever too pleased though.