Females can not march like men....
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We never did a BFT in fighting order. It was just gutties and shorts. And was in squads for the first part and solo for the last 1.5k.
CFT though was fighting order and 12kms with weapons.
BFT was no great hassle
CFT was a bit of bitch. Until I moved mine to the winter. Then it didn't kill me for days afterwards due dehydration and hyperthermia. It was ok during the summer if they did it at night but if some bright spark decided to do it after lunch we lost about 20% of the guys and 50% of those left weren't much use to man nor beast for days afterwards.
I might add I did the CFT twice with a GIMPY I really really don't know why, it was never my weapon, I had zero interest in firing it. We had the CFT finishing at the range and then a 50 round snap shoot on pop up targets at various distances with 3 second exposures. I actually quite enjoyed that.
Did see one unit doing there's in NBC kit which seemed a bit silly to me in the middle of summer in wales. I think I would have gone in the meat wagon before half way semi conscious.
CFT though was fighting order and 12kms with weapons.
BFT was no great hassle
CFT was a bit of bitch. Until I moved mine to the winter. Then it didn't kill me for days afterwards due dehydration and hyperthermia. It was ok during the summer if they did it at night but if some bright spark decided to do it after lunch we lost about 20% of the guys and 50% of those left weren't much use to man nor beast for days afterwards.
I might add I did the CFT twice with a GIMPY I really really don't know why, it was never my weapon, I had zero interest in firing it. We had the CFT finishing at the range and then a 50 round snap shoot on pop up targets at various distances with 3 second exposures. I actually quite enjoyed that.
Did see one unit doing there's in NBC kit which seemed a bit silly to me in the middle of summer in wales. I think I would have gone in the meat wagon before half way semi conscious.
Last edited by mad_jock; 26th Nov 2013 at 00:18.
I seem to remember that there were 2 distances for LAT runs i.e. 5 and 10 miles and only the 10 mile version involved cardiac hill. As stated before the girls didn't have to carry the CEFO or whatever.
LAT Runs
Beags (and others)
I went through RAFC on 58 IOT (Nov 81-Apr 82).
IIRC we did about 5 or so 'LAT runs' (LAT= leadership, agility training?). Route was from by pavilion at west end of north field to rear of CHOM, turn left and head north to field boundary, follow boundary until entrance to woods, through woods to road that lead to the bigger OMQ, almost double back and follow northern edge of woods, sharp right - go down hill - avoiding turnips - up hill and turn left along field margin, a few short turns followed by a dip or two, turn south before Ermine St, into woods, couple of slopes, through woods up a couple of slopes, turn left and emerge from woods by wooded avenue leading to WH and pavillion.
First run was just boots, DPM trousers and shirt. All others were with CEFO (RAF), as 1st run for WRAF. Not sure about SLR (memory blurs with subsequent J Course).
I do not recall doing more than a single lap of above route, and I don't think it took too long - so would doubt 5 mile claim above.
BATCO
PS More fun to be had giving piggy-back to WRAF around Orange, albeit Martin Cole (NZ) was a champ at that.
I went through RAFC on 58 IOT (Nov 81-Apr 82).
IIRC we did about 5 or so 'LAT runs' (LAT= leadership, agility training?). Route was from by pavilion at west end of north field to rear of CHOM, turn left and head north to field boundary, follow boundary until entrance to woods, through woods to road that lead to the bigger OMQ, almost double back and follow northern edge of woods, sharp right - go down hill - avoiding turnips - up hill and turn left along field margin, a few short turns followed by a dip or two, turn south before Ermine St, into woods, couple of slopes, through woods up a couple of slopes, turn left and emerge from woods by wooded avenue leading to WH and pavillion.
First run was just boots, DPM trousers and shirt. All others were with CEFO (RAF), as 1st run for WRAF. Not sure about SLR (memory blurs with subsequent J Course).
I do not recall doing more than a single lap of above route, and I don't think it took too long - so would doubt 5 mile claim above.
BATCO
PS More fun to be had giving piggy-back to WRAF around Orange, albeit Martin Cole (NZ) was a champ at that.
Gentleman Aviator
PS More fun to be had giving piggy-back to WRAF around Orange
Last edited by teeteringhead; 26th Nov 2013 at 16:09.
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I refer to wg13 dummy:
I did a spell at DIOT as a senior instructor and policy maker there in the late 90s. We argued long and hard about the problems of integrating female cadets into what was a pretty male dominated environment. On the one hand, we had a policy being thrust at us by the higher-echelons of the 'sorority' encouraging sexual equality for women in the training environment - 'Gender Equal' - and, on the other hand, medical advice -'Gender Fair'! Analysis of 'Gender Fair' suggested, as the Naval Orthopaedic Consultant stated on Radio 2 only yesterday, that the likely number of injuries that would be caused by 'Gender Equal' was minimal and so, in an effort to embrace the feminist view, we plumped for equality, and pleased the sorority, as the way ahead. It worked and out of the roughly 2500 officer cadets that passed through Cranwell in my time I know of only one female cadet who suffered a pelvic fracture and that was suffered during the 22km Ultimate Challenge exercise over Otterburn and not on the parade square - she refused to quit, despite being in pain and staff encouragement to do so, and crossed the finishing line with her cohort.
MOD policy was eventually changed in the mid '00s but whilst the Navy and Army adopted the changes the RAF stuck with Gender Equality for fear of a feminine uprising! So the RAF were buggered if they did and buggered if they didn't!
So,
Jimlad1: Get off your high horse, learn the facts and don't take a swipe at the instructors who were doing nothing more than following RAF policy, whether that was misguided or not!
Weren't you a cabin boy once?
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Would it be fair to say that these females have undone equality within the military in a few short steps? Females have been campaigning that they wanted to be treated equally for equal pay but this case seems that they have confirmed they are different and should be treated as such. Is it a height issue or a gender issue? If its the latter, surely we should just put all the females back in the office out of harms way and reduce their pay accordingly?
MOD policy was eventually changed in the mid '00s but whilst the Navy and Army adopted the changes the RAF stuck with Gender Equality for fear of a feminine uprising! So the RAF were buggered if they did and buggered if they didn't!
So,
The instructors chose not to follow the clear rules and instead forced the women to march at 30", causing them injuries which led to their being medically discharged.
Weren't you a cabin boy once?
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Avoid imitations
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My teenaged daughter is in her ATC Sqn banner drill team. She came back from the Corps drill championships on Saturday to read this news. Her response wasn't at all complimentary to the ladies who have claimed compensation and she is concerned that it could impact on ATC regulations and spoil their fun!
There won't be a rule change to AP 818, only that DIs may have to check their risk assessments for foot drill.
What might be affected in the ATC are road marching events such as Nijmegen.
What might be affected in the ATC are road marching events such as Nijmegen.
Since there were girls at Sleaford Tech in the v early 80s why did it take so long to argue about policy?
I seem to recall they were there a decade before that.
"Oooh , Flight Sergeant... I saw you hiding behind that tree, clutching your rifle! " ,
" Beg to differ Ma'am, but that was not my rifle."
I seem to recall they were there a decade before that.
"Oooh , Flight Sergeant... I saw you hiding behind that tree, clutching your rifle! " ,
" Beg to differ Ma'am, but that was not my rifle."
Last edited by Haraka; 27th Nov 2013 at 17:34.
I seem to recall they were there a decade before that.
"Don't you normally salute officers?"
Shortly followed by "Err, sorry sir...I mean ma'am"?
Perhaps this thread also refers to 'combat flaps'....
(Sorry, you know who you are.....
)* A view which all those weeks of confinement in the SBLs might perhaps have made rather generous? Actually no - I thought she was gorgeous!
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The girls suffered training injuries, and were treated. I assume that they were then discharged as no longer suitable for their choice of military service, or elected to leave. Either way they were paid statutory compensation. All then recovered and went on to successful alternative careers. Case closed.
Enter today's greed fraternity. Family, friends and legal teams. Now, not only are the three individuals very financially content, but their supporters are also a tad wealthier. Good? I hope they've made a nice contribution to HfH.
How I wish I'd worn ear defenders around the flight line when crewing-in. Nobody told me to do so, so I developed a deafness, which debarred me from my preferred follow-on career. Visit to DHSS - statutory compensation. Choose another option. Case closed.
Duty of care applicable in both cases. But so was self-awareness. That's how it was Hinecap. BTW, do you allow your children to climb trees? Silly me of course - not if there's a sign at the base with disclaimers from all concerned.
How further will this culture develop? It is though, we read, daily.
Enter today's greed fraternity. Family, friends and legal teams. Now, not only are the three individuals very financially content, but their supporters are also a tad wealthier. Good? I hope they've made a nice contribution to HfH.
How I wish I'd worn ear defenders around the flight line when crewing-in. Nobody told me to do so, so I developed a deafness, which debarred me from my preferred follow-on career. Visit to DHSS - statutory compensation. Choose another option. Case closed.
Duty of care applicable in both cases. But so was self-awareness. That's how it was Hinecap. BTW, do you allow your children to climb trees? Silly me of course - not if there's a sign at the base with disclaimers from all concerned.
How further will this culture develop? It is though, we read, daily.
Last edited by cuefaye; 27th Nov 2013 at 20:05. Reason: sp
So when did all this running in boots with packs start at basic training - and why?
We certainly didn't have problems with female stride length as flight cadets at Cranditz 68-71, although certain short-legged cadets undoubtedly suffered on parade. Trenchard was still rolling in his grave when 1 and 2 GEs arrived in 1970 with, if memory serves, two female officers. I remember a loud voice from the back of the room at the first Mess Meeting that they attended when they were introduced and facilities for the females were announced - "Good grief, they're sending us boys!"
More worrying, reading everyone's comments is that now, aged 63 and retired for 8 years, is that I'm not sure that I was ever really qualified for a commission. In two and a half years we never lifted a pine-pole, put on a gas mask, ran in boots or anything like that. We did a fair amount of PT, played lots of sport, ran the appalling Knocker Run around the North Airfield and did occasional exercises like King Rock. I think that if one had been asked to move pine-poles, the advice would have been to fill in a 658 and leave it to the experts. When did physical exercises start to replace officer training?
More worrying, reading everyone's comments is that now, aged 63 and retired for 8 years, is that I'm not sure that I was ever really qualified for a commission. In two and a half years we never lifted a pine-pole, put on a gas mask, ran in boots or anything like that. We did a fair amount of PT, played lots of sport, ran the appalling Knocker Run around the North Airfield and did occasional exercises like King Rock. I think that if one had been asked to move pine-poles, the advice would have been to fill in a 658 and leave it to the experts. When did physical exercises start to replace officer training?
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There was a PTI at Halton had a interview no tea and biccies, he had the first all female course and was putting them through their paces in the Gym, he had them doing various exercises and they eventually ended up on their backs, legs raised in the air wide open and holding in that position, he then walked down the line and went haircut, haircut, haircut.......
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"How I wish I'd worn ear defenders around the flight line when crewing-in. Nobody told me to do so, so I developed a deafness, which debarred me from my preferred follow-on career. Visit to DHSS - statutory compensation. Choose another option. Case closed."
cuefaye
How I wish ear defenders had been available around the flight line back then. The rest of your post applies.
cuefaye
How I wish ear defenders had been available around the flight line back then. The rest of your post applies.