Excuse my ignorance
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Smuj
Well that means you served 30 years. Sorry to hear about your reason for discharge but even at that date there were few of us around who attested on that cold day in January 1969".
Well that means you served 30 years. Sorry to hear about your reason for discharge but even at that date there were few of us around who attested on that cold day in January 1969".
Just to add some current information to the "I think" type comments here.
Today, nobody can join as an Ab-Initio SAC(T) other than Armourers. All other TG1 (and this now encompasses all of what was 2&3) join as AMMs. These are Aircraft Maintenance Mechanics, or FLMs of old. Leave Cosford as LACs and are advanced to SAC upon completion of TATs. After 18 months they go back to Cosford to be trained as A Tech M or A Tech Av. Almost like....a fitters course. They leave Cosford as SAC(T)s. We have gone full circle.
Armourers do not go back for further training as they do not have to pass through the AMM hoop and leave as LAC then advancing to SAC, and on Completion of their NVQ are advanced to SAC(T).
Today, nobody can join as an Ab-Initio SAC(T) other than Armourers. All other TG1 (and this now encompasses all of what was 2&3) join as AMMs. These are Aircraft Maintenance Mechanics, or FLMs of old. Leave Cosford as LACs and are advanced to SAC upon completion of TATs. After 18 months they go back to Cosford to be trained as A Tech M or A Tech Av. Almost like....a fitters course. They leave Cosford as SAC(T)s. We have gone full circle.
Armourers do not go back for further training as they do not have to pass through the AMM hoop and leave as LAC then advancing to SAC, and on Completion of their NVQ are advanced to SAC(T).
Thread Starter
Rotaryeng,
A bloody cold Wednesday as I remember. With around 170 of us having to parade at the Med centre in the afternoon for the start of the jabs. The shortening of my career was "one of those things" I suppose and unworthy of attention. Suffice that I still have a lot of contact with former comrades and value that above most other things.
Downsizer,
Crikey, it's only a few years, since I left, but even I do not recognise the career structure you now exist in. I'm sure that the lads and lasses understand what they are signing up for, and therefore the "spirit" of our service is maintained. We are really lucky in Great Britain that we do not need to rely on conscription to man our military requirements, long may it remain so, I for one will always back our servicemen and women in their tasks.
Best to both
Smudge
A bloody cold Wednesday as I remember. With around 170 of us having to parade at the Med centre in the afternoon for the start of the jabs. The shortening of my career was "one of those things" I suppose and unworthy of attention. Suffice that I still have a lot of contact with former comrades and value that above most other things.
Downsizer,
Crikey, it's only a few years, since I left, but even I do not recognise the career structure you now exist in. I'm sure that the lads and lasses understand what they are signing up for, and therefore the "spirit" of our service is maintained. We are really lucky in Great Britain that we do not need to rely on conscription to man our military requirements, long may it remain so, I for one will always back our servicemen and women in their tasks.
Best to both
Smudge
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Thanks downsize how long is the tech course, does it take them off establishment?
Suprised they have gone the flem route again, although it's not exactly the same as a flem was a trade structure originally up to Sgt, when they binned it they could choose a trade and they went through a mechs course, finished it on a Friday then started a fitters course on a Monday. Poor buggers who got it did both courses back to back.
Suprised they have gone the flem route again, although it's not exactly the same as a flem was a trade structure originally up to Sgt, when they binned it they could choose a trade and they went through a mechs course, finished it on a Friday then started a fitters course on a Monday. Poor buggers who got it did both courses back to back.
These are Aircraft Maintenance Mechanics, or FLMs of old.
Instead of being given the opportunity to assist the trade desks, developing their own skills and knowledge (SAKS?) and becoming a productive tradesman, most were treated as line swine. You can't complain down the line when they are your new Cpls and no effort has been invested in them.
Leave Cosford as LACs and are advanced to SAC upon completion of TATs.
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Cheers downsizer, thanks for the update. Under the LTR which introduced the SAC(T) the original entry points were Mech Mech and Mech Tech. Mech Techs, from what I remembered, were recruited with a guarantee of attending their SAC(Tech) course following their initial first tour. The courses were stripped down versions of the old FT courses and hence were shorter. The Mech Mech I believe could be offered an FT course based on performance and aptitude. LTR also looked at multiskilling from which came the amalgamation of the trades.
After graduating the SAC(T) would then progress through their modern apprenticeship by work placed evidence being assessed by on station verifiers (SNCO level). Pay breaks at certain points were designed to provide some additional motivation. Progression beyond SAC(T) was by competition through the annual promotion board system. At the time I left it had settled down and all seamed to be working well. Interesting to see how it has developed.
After graduating the SAC(T) would then progress through their modern apprenticeship by work placed evidence being assessed by on station verifiers (SNCO level). Pay breaks at certain points were designed to provide some additional motivation. Progression beyond SAC(T) was by competition through the annual promotion board system. At the time I left it had settled down and all seamed to be working well. Interesting to see how it has developed.
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Yep just read the RAF careers page on the web, states a. Sac tech course is three years BUT. That includes everything, the Mech Tech course appears cut down as it is listed as 5 months, and that must cover AF and Engines, in my time a single mech course would cover the same time period. Then your first tour is counted as part of your apprenticeship, followed by a year at Halton, which again previously covered just one trade, so training wise it has reduced in effect by half.
Aircraft Technician (Mechanical) - Engineering and technical careers - RAF Careers
Interesting to see basic training is now 10 weeks, that's up from 6 when I went through it.
Aircraft Technician (Mechanical) - Engineering and technical careers - RAF Careers
Interesting to see basic training is now 10 weeks, that's up from 6 when I went through it.
Basic training has been ten weeks for a long time now, I retired over a year ago and even 4 years before my end date I had first tourists reaching my unit that had done ten weeks basic. That policy must have come in at least 5 years ago now, maybe more.
I seem to recall in 1960 Basic was 10 weeks (I arrived at Bridgenorth in September and posted out of there to Yatesbury for a direct entry fitter course in early December).
Then 9 months trade training AC2 to J/T.
Then out into the real RAF to start the real learning process....
Then 9 months trade training AC2 to J/T.
Then out into the real RAF to start the real learning process....
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Nut loose,
The 5 month 'specialist' course referred to on the RAF website is the AMM course, which gives the students a very basic glossing over of all of the trades, but not to any great depth, concentrating mainly on aircraft operation and line tasks. This does not really compare with the single trade Mech course that you or I would have completed, as it designed to get the AMM's up to a good enough standard to mainly carry out line tasks, and give basic trade assistance across all trades. At this point it does not go into depth in either the Mech or Avionics specialisations.
After around 18 months to 2 years, the AMM's return to Cosford for Further Training, much in the same manner as the Mech Tech stream did, with the difference that they are now posted from their previous unit and are on Cosford's strength. The Mech 1235 course is then an amalgamated Airframe/Propulsion course that while not as in depth as the old school 'Fitters Course' - remains a little more in depth than the old 'Mech's Course'. This course currently comprises 13 months at Cosford including the Engineering Science and Academic Principles phase. Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, the course still requires the students to carry out fault finding tasks and exercises throughout the different phases, culminating in an assessed 'Consolidation Exercise' in the final week of the course which is designed to consolidate the student's ability to fault find, raise and complete paperwork, and carry out corrective maintenance in a safe and satisfactory manner and hopefully put together everything they have learned over the previous 13 months! Completion of their NVQ then leads to the completion of a Modern Apprenticeship.
The 5 month 'specialist' course referred to on the RAF website is the AMM course, which gives the students a very basic glossing over of all of the trades, but not to any great depth, concentrating mainly on aircraft operation and line tasks. This does not really compare with the single trade Mech course that you or I would have completed, as it designed to get the AMM's up to a good enough standard to mainly carry out line tasks, and give basic trade assistance across all trades. At this point it does not go into depth in either the Mech or Avionics specialisations.
After around 18 months to 2 years, the AMM's return to Cosford for Further Training, much in the same manner as the Mech Tech stream did, with the difference that they are now posted from their previous unit and are on Cosford's strength. The Mech 1235 course is then an amalgamated Airframe/Propulsion course that while not as in depth as the old school 'Fitters Course' - remains a little more in depth than the old 'Mech's Course'. This course currently comprises 13 months at Cosford including the Engineering Science and Academic Principles phase. Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, the course still requires the students to carry out fault finding tasks and exercises throughout the different phases, culminating in an assessed 'Consolidation Exercise' in the final week of the course which is designed to consolidate the student's ability to fault find, raise and complete paperwork, and carry out corrective maintenance in a safe and satisfactory manner and hopefully put together everything they have learned over the previous 13 months!
Completion of their NVQ then leads to the completion of a Modern Apprenticeship.
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True, but that could have been accomplished at the stroke of a pen under the old system, also it must mean you are just about guaranteed a posting as the establishment will have been filled while you were away. My case I was to go back to the station I came from but they were going to post me to a maint hangar, my boss kicked up a fuss and I came back to the Squadron.
I remember 1 guy who being an ex flem (jags all his career) who did the mechs course, then a FT course directly afterwards and at the day they tell you your posting was asked do you want the good or bad news, he asked the good to be told there wasn't any as he had put down Jags as his preference. Ist bad news was he was going to Shacks and second bad news was he now had another 6 weeks at Halton doing a piston course.
I remember 1 guy who being an ex flem (jags all his career) who did the mechs course, then a FT course directly afterwards and at the day they tell you your posting was asked do you want the good or bad news, he asked the good to be told there wasn't any as he had put down Jags as his preference. Ist bad news was he was going to Shacks and second bad news was he now had another 6 weeks at Halton doing a piston course.
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Nutloose, ultimately anything can be accomplished with the stroke of a pen - if the willingness to sign the cheque was there,funds to back it up, and the manning cap limit was removed sure. The introduction of SAC(T) was cost neutral - the clever part was achieving the posting of the individual from the Sqn's establishment so that the Sqn would not need to carry the loss. The manning headroom to do this was found by redesigning the old FT courses.
Trust me, that was a massive improvement over the old system. Being posted back to a different unit can equally be argued to be a positive - the individual has a new sheet from which to build his/her reputation - a good start to his/her new position. When all is said and done I think the new system works well and was overdue in terms of how it better matches the needs of the service today. I was at High Wycombe when the LTR team came round to brief and everyone in the audience accepted the rational for SAC(T) as an obvious direction to go - there was a lot of cautious hesitation though regarding the proposals for multiskilling.
Trust me, that was a massive improvement over the old system. Being posted back to a different unit can equally be argued to be a positive - the individual has a new sheet from which to build his/her reputation - a good start to his/her new position. When all is said and done I think the new system works well and was overdue in terms of how it better matches the needs of the service today. I was at High Wycombe when the LTR team came round to brief and everyone in the audience accepted the rational for SAC(T) as an obvious direction to go - there was a lot of cautious hesitation though regarding the proposals for multiskilling.
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Multi skilling as in dual trade? Well that had been proved already in service, so it wasn't a leap of faith to go the whole hog.
I often thought single trades were a waste, after all there was so much overlap in certain areas that the training part could have be reduced in combining the trades, I found it quite straight forward when I came out to "add" the missing parts to my knowledge base to go multi trade, as they did indeed overlap. Single trades in the RAF could be a hinderance to those coming out and into the civil side of things, I think I was lucky as my experience covered helicopters, fighters and airliners which gave me a broader spread, indeed the VC10 courses as a "Sootie" meant I would do runs for all trades so the courses rightly had to cover systems etc for those other trades.
I often thought single trades were a waste, after all there was so much overlap in certain areas that the training part could have be reduced in combining the trades, I found it quite straight forward when I came out to "add" the missing parts to my knowledge base to go multi trade, as they did indeed overlap. Single trades in the RAF could be a hinderance to those coming out and into the civil side of things, I think I was lucky as my experience covered helicopters, fighters and airliners which gave me a broader spread, indeed the VC10 courses as a "Sootie" meant I would do runs for all trades so the courses rightly had to cover systems etc for those other trades.
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Tom
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In my time in the Civil Service (after 12 years RAF service) I met an old chap who had been in the Royal Navy in 1944. After his initial training as a Telegraphist at HMS Mercury (Hampshire) he was posted to a ship in Scapa Flow (Orkney). The journey north took 3 days in crowded trains and a very rough crossing of the Pentland Firth. On arrival at his ship he was told that he had to attend a specialist course commencing in 7 days time - at HMS Mercury.
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Nutloose
There was an attempt at what you might call multi-skilling in 1965/66 or thereabouts. At that time I was a GWF at REU Henlow and took a theoretical exam on radar to become a Radio Fitter , or Radio Tech, can't remember the exact designation now.
Anyway, it didn't last too long and things changed again the following year.
Bob C
There was an attempt at what you might call multi-skilling in 1965/66 or thereabouts. At that time I was a GWF at REU Henlow and took a theoretical exam on radar to become a Radio Fitter , or Radio Tech, can't remember the exact designation now.
Anyway, it didn't last too long and things changed again the following year.
Bob C
I seem to remember a period in the late '60s when 'system fitters' or were they technicians were in vogue. Intended to know enough about everything to intercede between the trades on new complex aircraft systems. In practice (rumour had it) didn't know enough about anything to be useful.
The most efficient posting I was on was 'Borneo Jet Force' during Confrontation. Two of each trade needed, 24 hrs. on, 24 off so there was always 1, and cross trading to help the one who knew what he was doing when two or more sets of hands needed. Air Radar Fitters doing engine changes, etc. Seemed to work very well.
The most efficient posting I was on was 'Borneo Jet Force' during Confrontation. Two of each trade needed, 24 hrs. on, 24 off so there was always 1, and cross trading to help the one who knew what he was doing when two or more sets of hands needed. Air Radar Fitters doing engine changes, etc. Seemed to work very well.
What's the view from the front line on the quality of the AMMs and SAC(T)s who are coming through the system now? Are they up to the job or undertrained (or even overtrained)?