Excuse my ignorance
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Shortly before I left the RAF, Halton Apps were coming out already wearing Cpl stripes, which really upset the "old sweats" who had earned theirs the hard way. Anyone got any thoughts on that ?
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There were two types of apprentice you had the apprentice that was dual trade and did three years? Who passed out a JT and was promoted a Corporal after 1 year having been judged to have done the time in training, you also had the Supertech that did five years training and passed out as Cpl, they were a Engines Airframes Electrics Radio Radar? But it was a short run trade.
Both of those apprenticeship schemes ceased quite some time ago and most Supertechs have left, or are about to leave, the service. I know of two Supertech retirees still attached to the military but no longer in it.
DE courses also finished some years ago and now all RAF aircraft mechanic and technician courses are conducted at Cosford.
I believe ALL techies are now started as Mechanics. - No Appo's, no Short Techy Courses.
...and all courses are now heavily modular - even type courses.
DE courses also finished some years ago and now all RAF aircraft mechanic and technician courses are conducted at Cosford.
I believe ALL techies are now started as Mechanics. - No Appo's, no Short Techy Courses.
...and all courses are now heavily modular - even type courses.
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Yep probably said through the years but dumbing down of the job, I was taught to repair parts and fault diagnose, these days it's plug and play, without knowing really what each item does. I am surprised how much simple knowledge they do not have these days when they come out.
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Nut Loose,
Possibly true in later years, but, the Tech Apps retained the original Halton Apps entry number system when they were introduced and passed out as Cpls after 3 years.
The Craft Apps started the 2xx entry numbers and did 2 years, leaving as a J/T.
There were, for a short while, Mech Apps starting with a 3xx entry number who did 1 year and left as an S.A.C ( mech ).
Thereafter, it was 3 yrs to Sgt and 4 to C/T for the tech.apps..or, for the craft.apps 3 years to Cpl and then as per the techs.
All subject to passing exams ( the easy bit ) and then the wonderful assessment system the R.A.F had in place in those days, which ensured you were at the whim of the woefully incompetent Eng.O cadre. I only met two who were actually capable of being, and understanding, engineers and both of them left the R.A.F prematurely to get a decent role in the civilian world.
The time promotion resulted in a serious promotion stagnation, due to the surplus, of engineers in the late 70's / early 80's, and a high PVR rate at one time.
I have never forgotten the complete look of shock and inability to understand on the face of a Flt.Lt from Innsworth who briefed (if you could call it a brief, more a hectoring lecture) us at Bruggen as to why Cpl was the rank to be in the future....the cheers and clapping from the front rows, the old cooks, admin, MT trade groups were in stark contrast to the wall of ice and " far from acquiescent " vocal response from the rear.....all engineers.
The poor dear had probably never met engineers in person before...but he did then.
Possibly true in later years, but, the Tech Apps retained the original Halton Apps entry number system when they were introduced and passed out as Cpls after 3 years.
The Craft Apps started the 2xx entry numbers and did 2 years, leaving as a J/T.
There were, for a short while, Mech Apps starting with a 3xx entry number who did 1 year and left as an S.A.C ( mech ).
Thereafter, it was 3 yrs to Sgt and 4 to C/T for the tech.apps..or, for the craft.apps 3 years to Cpl and then as per the techs.
All subject to passing exams ( the easy bit ) and then the wonderful assessment system the R.A.F had in place in those days, which ensured you were at the whim of the woefully incompetent Eng.O cadre. I only met two who were actually capable of being, and understanding, engineers and both of them left the R.A.F prematurely to get a decent role in the civilian world.
The time promotion resulted in a serious promotion stagnation, due to the surplus, of engineers in the late 70's / early 80's, and a high PVR rate at one time.
I have never forgotten the complete look of shock and inability to understand on the face of a Flt.Lt from Innsworth who briefed (if you could call it a brief, more a hectoring lecture) us at Bruggen as to why Cpl was the rank to be in the future....the cheers and clapping from the front rows, the old cooks, admin, MT trade groups were in stark contrast to the wall of ice and " far from acquiescent " vocal response from the rear.....all engineers.
The poor dear had probably never met engineers in person before...but he did then.
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Like you Nutloose, I'm confused as to why they should want to do this. The rank of Junior Technician is well established in the RAF. I wonder if the next move will be the encirclement of Sergeants stripes to denote Technical Sergeant and the expunging of Chief Technician. I suppose it's not for an old crusty ex serviceman like me to question the "modern thinking". I just can't see any logic in the new titles.
Smudge
Smudge
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OK, so being an ex Craft Apprentice, familiar with the apprentice wheel, is that what it's all now based on ? Fair do's if that's the case, and none of the qualified tradesmen suffer as a result. I would have happily been an AC2 Ground Engineer, purely for the experience, but the application form demanded a minimum rank of Sgt, and at least 12 months currency on type. Loads of response here that is worthy of note, and most seems to reflect that it was not done for the benefit of tradesmen who do their best. I apologise if I used the photograph from the sad funeral story to illustrate my question. I certainly meant no disrespect, and, was delighted that, as usual, fellow comrades did not let him down. I'm very proud that I achieved the requirements of the service to be promoted to both Junior Technician and Chief Technician in my time. If the ranks are to be removed it has to be to the detriment of aircraft tradesmen and the Royal Air Force, in my humble opinion.
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So does this mean an SAC tech does not do further training as a JT would, hence they stay on establishment, what has replaced the annual assessment?
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Noddy question - Is a Chief Tech superior to an RAF Sgt in a non-tech trade (e.g. MT)? By superior, I mean in the strict military sense, i.e. can Chf Tech X order (non-tech) Sgt Y to carry out a task?
Or are they equal in rank in the context of QRs?
Or are they equal in rank in the context of QRs?
I believe (I'm no expert) that SAC(T) courses teach basic systems to deeper levels than Mech's. But I also believe that they only teach Black Box systems - Specialist get courses to know what's inside the box/component.
Cpls go on Modular Type Courses studying each system as a separate course. It is rare (again, so I believe) for a single person to do all aircraft systems.
Fault Diagnosis Courses are a Cpls domain (again, I'm not sure if these are individual system based)
I say this from personal I spoke to and experiences when employed on a military contract.
I may of course be completely wrong but that's the way I understood what was said.
R280: Yes, they can.
Cpls go on Modular Type Courses studying each system as a separate course. It is rare (again, so I believe) for a single person to do all aircraft systems.
Fault Diagnosis Courses are a Cpls domain (again, I'm not sure if these are individual system based)
I say this from personal I spoke to and experiences when employed on a military contract.
I may of course be completely wrong but that's the way I understood what was said.
R280: Yes, they can.
Last edited by Rigga; 17th Nov 2013 at 21:19. Reason: R280 Q
Thread Starter
Roadster,
Whilst I would accept that the ranks of Junior and Chief Technicians are anomalous for some trades. That reflects the need for a more "simplified" rank structure, more understandable for those employed within them. Notwithstanding that, it might have done the RAF some good if all ranks and trades were standardised and maintained throughout the years. I ask one question only, in December 72 I was posted to RAF Akrotiri. The posting was dependant on my attending, and passing a Vulcan Airframe Q course. The course lasted around 5 weeks, had an exam and failure would have stopped my posting, and affected my career. Did MT techs! Mechs, Drivers etc have such courses ? Or was a posting to Akrotiri simply that from an MT point of view ? It would be interesting to see where non aircraft trades were subject to such courses and what effect they could have on career progression. I'm sure there must be some examples.
Smudge
Whilst I would accept that the ranks of Junior and Chief Technicians are anomalous for some trades. That reflects the need for a more "simplified" rank structure, more understandable for those employed within them. Notwithstanding that, it might have done the RAF some good if all ranks and trades were standardised and maintained throughout the years. I ask one question only, in December 72 I was posted to RAF Akrotiri. The posting was dependant on my attending, and passing a Vulcan Airframe Q course. The course lasted around 5 weeks, had an exam and failure would have stopped my posting, and affected my career. Did MT techs! Mechs, Drivers etc have such courses ? Or was a posting to Akrotiri simply that from an MT point of view ? It would be interesting to see where non aircraft trades were subject to such courses and what effect they could have on career progression. I'm sure there must be some examples.
Smudge
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The SAC(T) is an ab initio technician - there is no need for FT. The training school release the SAC(T) having met what is referred to as the training performance standard (TPS); FT in effect having been delivered up front. Progression to operational performance standard (OPS) is achieved under Modern Apprenticeship framework - work place assessors act as verifiers to confirm candidate has met the standard. So once the SAC (T) arrives on the Sqn, he remains there until posted - no loosing the guy/girl for 13 months whilst bearing him/her on your establishment without a replacement. Once qualified i.e OPS he/she goes into the Cpl promotion board - annual assessments remain unchanged. Now, I've been out for a few years so some points of detail may have changed.
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So how does a SAC mech get promoted?
How long is an SAC techs training? We did a mechs course followed by a fitters course that was 12 months and included lots of fault diagnosis as a JT was expected to do that. Then type courses that were about 6 weeks in length.
I take it SAC Techs do not do EGR's? As a lot of my work would have involved ground running for both my and other trade fault finding. Seems like an SAC Tech, and I mean no disrespect to them is a seriously dumbed down intermediate rank
How long is an SAC techs training? We did a mechs course followed by a fitters course that was 12 months and included lots of fault diagnosis as a JT was expected to do that. Then type courses that were about 6 weeks in length.
I take it SAC Techs do not do EGR's? As a lot of my work would have involved ground running for both my and other trade fault finding. Seems like an SAC Tech, and I mean no disrespect to them is a seriously dumbed down intermediate rank
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Smudge,
I don't get your complaint. Each trade has entirely different "trade specific" requirements and so they should. If you were employed solely within a GD branch similar to that on the commissioned side then perhaps you may have had a point but the RAF does not employ generalists in the non commissioned ranks they employ specialists designated and paid by trade specialisation. I think it is therefore entirely valid that your posting was dependant on completion of a Q course etc. The commissioned side are paid under the so called 'band of brother' arrangement so a Flt, Sqn Ldr, Wg Cdr pay is identical irrespective of branch (exceptions Medics etc) - specialist pay of course is separate. Sorry if I have misinterpreted you. Anyway I take it you passed and enjoyed your sunshine tour
I don't get your complaint. Each trade has entirely different "trade specific" requirements and so they should. If you were employed solely within a GD branch similar to that on the commissioned side then perhaps you may have had a point but the RAF does not employ generalists in the non commissioned ranks they employ specialists designated and paid by trade specialisation. I think it is therefore entirely valid that your posting was dependant on completion of a Q course etc. The commissioned side are paid under the so called 'band of brother' arrangement so a Flt, Sqn Ldr, Wg Cdr pay is identical irrespective of branch (exceptions Medics etc) - specialist pay of course is separate. Sorry if I have misinterpreted you. Anyway I take it you passed and enjoyed your sunshine tour
Shortly before I left the RAF, Halton Apps were coming out already wearing Cpl stripes, which really upset the "old sweats" who had earned theirs the hard way. Anyone got any thoughts on that ?
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Thanks Tom, so if they pass out as SAC Tech, do they skip LAC? Added more to my last post.
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This is how it works:
This system also applies to the Av Techs.
Is it any good? Its certainly different to the traditional training regime.
I would say however, that the kids being brought in are on the whole no different to the wee maggot I was 30+ years ago (in other words, brilliant)
Aircraft Technician (Mechanical)
Job description: Maintain aircraft and their mechanical systems, including engines
Pay after one year: £17,485
Joining age: 16 – 29
Category: Airmen/airwomen
Usual service: 9 years
Open to: men or women
Similar civilian jobs:
Qualifications you need: 3 GCSE/SCEs at Grade C/2 minimum or equivalent in English language, maths and an approved science/technology-based subject.
This role requires a physics based science subject. Please check by reading this document (opens in a new window).
Qualifications you can gain: NVQ Level 3 in aeronautical engineering; Advanced Apprenticeship in aeronautical engineering
Nationality: Citizen of the UK or Republic of Ireland, or a Commonwealth citizen since birth
Save
The job
Aircraft Technicians (Mechanical) are responsible for the complete range of mechanical components and structure of the aircraft including the engines, gearboxes, flying controls, landing gear, hydraulics, air conditioning, anti-icing and fuel systems. You could examine, test and repair engines and propulsion equipment on everything from fast jets to multi-engined aircraft and helicopters.
Initially, you will be trained and serve as an Aircraft Maintenance Mechanic, where you will gain valuable experience of working around aircraft and be part of a team preparing aircraft for take-off, as well as checking them for damage and wear after they return from a flight. During this phase, you’ll be given the opportunity to assist with the replacement of both mechanical and avionic components, regardless of your future technician trade.
Following a period of further training, you will then be a qualified Aircraft Technician (Mechanical) and able to carry out the full range of responsibilities of the job, including diagnosing and repairing more serious faults and carrying out complex maintenance tasks.
Your future
Career Prospects
You’ll initially join the RAF for a period of nine years. After a year you’ll be eligible for promotion to Senior Aircraftman/woman if you pass a trade ability test. Further promotion to the rank of Corporal and beyond is by competitive selection once you have successfully completed the technician training course.
There are two options for those who are not selected for, or fail, technician training: you could either transfer to another job in the RAF for which you have the necessary aptitude, if there is a vacancy available; or you could leave the RAF.
Transferable skills
The NVQs and Apprenticeships that you can earn are as valuable in the civilian world as they are in the RAF – which means that whenever you decide to leave the RAF, you’ll be well placed to find a job in engineering.
Your training
Recruit training
Your career will start with a 10 week Basic Recruit Training Course (BRTC) at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire. The course is designed to help you adjust to a military environment. As well as fitness and military training, you’ll also learn about the RAF lifestyle.
Specialist training
The next step is a specialist training course at DCAE Cosford, near Wolverhampton, which lasts about five months. This course is designed to give you a basic understanding of your role, which includes aircraft handling and safety procedures. You’ll complete this course as an Aircraft Maintenance Mechanic (AMM) and then get your first posting, where you’ll remain for about two years to gain the necessary experience needed for the technician training course. You will also be enrolled on an Intermediate Apprenticeship during which you may achieve an NVQ Level 2, Technical Certificate Level 2 and functional skills level 2.
Your first tour
For your first tour, you’ll be posted to a flying station where you’ll handle, refuel and maintain aircraft. You’ll also check for damage and wear, and may be called on to make minor repairs. You could also work in hangars or workshops with experienced technicians, where you’ll help with more complex maintenance tasks.
Ongoing development
After your first tour as an AMM and, providing you achieve the required specialist standards, you’ll return to DCAE Cosford for a year-long technician training course. You’ll also be enrolled on an Advanced Apprenticeship in Aeronautical Engineering – the Key Skills element of which will be completed during training.
On successful completion of this part of your specialist training you will be qualified as an Aircraft Technician (Mechanical). In addition, once you’ve demonstrated your ability as a technician, you may be eligible for an NVQ Level 3 in Aeronautical Engineering. The award of this NVQ also signifies the completion of your Advanced Apprenticeship.
Job description: Maintain aircraft and their mechanical systems, including engines
Pay after one year: £17,485
Joining age: 16 – 29
Category: Airmen/airwomen
Usual service: 9 years
Open to: men or women
Similar civilian jobs:
- Aircraft maintenance
- Aircraft manufacturing
Qualifications you need: 3 GCSE/SCEs at Grade C/2 minimum or equivalent in English language, maths and an approved science/technology-based subject.
This role requires a physics based science subject. Please check by reading this document (opens in a new window).
Qualifications you can gain: NVQ Level 3 in aeronautical engineering; Advanced Apprenticeship in aeronautical engineering
Nationality: Citizen of the UK or Republic of Ireland, or a Commonwealth citizen since birth
Save
The job
Aircraft Technicians (Mechanical) are responsible for the complete range of mechanical components and structure of the aircraft including the engines, gearboxes, flying controls, landing gear, hydraulics, air conditioning, anti-icing and fuel systems. You could examine, test and repair engines and propulsion equipment on everything from fast jets to multi-engined aircraft and helicopters.
Initially, you will be trained and serve as an Aircraft Maintenance Mechanic, where you will gain valuable experience of working around aircraft and be part of a team preparing aircraft for take-off, as well as checking them for damage and wear after they return from a flight. During this phase, you’ll be given the opportunity to assist with the replacement of both mechanical and avionic components, regardless of your future technician trade.
Following a period of further training, you will then be a qualified Aircraft Technician (Mechanical) and able to carry out the full range of responsibilities of the job, including diagnosing and repairing more serious faults and carrying out complex maintenance tasks.
Your future
Career Prospects
You’ll initially join the RAF for a period of nine years. After a year you’ll be eligible for promotion to Senior Aircraftman/woman if you pass a trade ability test. Further promotion to the rank of Corporal and beyond is by competitive selection once you have successfully completed the technician training course.
There are two options for those who are not selected for, or fail, technician training: you could either transfer to another job in the RAF for which you have the necessary aptitude, if there is a vacancy available; or you could leave the RAF.
Transferable skills
The NVQs and Apprenticeships that you can earn are as valuable in the civilian world as they are in the RAF – which means that whenever you decide to leave the RAF, you’ll be well placed to find a job in engineering.
Your training
Recruit training
Your career will start with a 10 week Basic Recruit Training Course (BRTC) at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire. The course is designed to help you adjust to a military environment. As well as fitness and military training, you’ll also learn about the RAF lifestyle.
Specialist training
The next step is a specialist training course at DCAE Cosford, near Wolverhampton, which lasts about five months. This course is designed to give you a basic understanding of your role, which includes aircraft handling and safety procedures. You’ll complete this course as an Aircraft Maintenance Mechanic (AMM) and then get your first posting, where you’ll remain for about two years to gain the necessary experience needed for the technician training course. You will also be enrolled on an Intermediate Apprenticeship during which you may achieve an NVQ Level 2, Technical Certificate Level 2 and functional skills level 2.
Your first tour
For your first tour, you’ll be posted to a flying station where you’ll handle, refuel and maintain aircraft. You’ll also check for damage and wear, and may be called on to make minor repairs. You could also work in hangars or workshops with experienced technicians, where you’ll help with more complex maintenance tasks.
Ongoing development
After your first tour as an AMM and, providing you achieve the required specialist standards, you’ll return to DCAE Cosford for a year-long technician training course. You’ll also be enrolled on an Advanced Apprenticeship in Aeronautical Engineering – the Key Skills element of which will be completed during training.
On successful completion of this part of your specialist training you will be qualified as an Aircraft Technician (Mechanical). In addition, once you’ve demonstrated your ability as a technician, you may be eligible for an NVQ Level 3 in Aeronautical Engineering. The award of this NVQ also signifies the completion of your Advanced Apprenticeship.
Is it any good? Its certainly different to the traditional training regime.
I would say however, that the kids being brought in are on the whole no different to the wee maggot I was 30+ years ago (in other words, brilliant
)
smujsmith wrote:
In answer to your question, the answer was 'Yes' for us lowly stackers. For example, I had to do an 'X' course as a pre-requisite for a posting that I had. Failure would have meant a re-posting to a non-specialist role and negative comments on my F6442. Also had to do the 'F' course, failure of which would have resulted in the same, with the consequential impact that would have on one's career.
…..It would be interesting to see where non aircraft trades were subject to such courses and what effect they could have on career progression…..
In answer to your question, the answer was 'Yes' for us lowly stackers. For example, I had to do an 'X' course as a pre-requisite for a posting that I had. Failure would have meant a re-posting to a non-specialist role and negative comments on my F6442. Also had to do the 'F' course, failure of which would have resulted in the same, with the consequential impact that would have on one's career.