Noise at Brize Norton
There is also the issue of planting trees which are not native to British West Oxfordshire and the resulting influence on the local eco-system.....
The problem of C-130 engine running was the time at which it was often conducted. To many it seems that the standard Hercules servicing policy calls for engine runs - or that absurdly noisy auxiliary power unit - at totally unacceptable times of day/night. Of course some runs are essential, but quite so many? Mind you, I'm told that Belfast engine runs were far, far worse. I heard one once at RAF Abingdon in 1973 during our UAS Summer Camp - it went on for most of the day!
The Atlas should require far fewer engine ground runs as it is a 21st Century design with rather more on-board diagnostics. But currently I hear that the Atlas hangar is threatened by the potential impact upon the local Great Crested Newt population, a species protected by the UK Biodiversity Action Plan....
That might seem quite daft; sorry, but that's UK policy.
Unfortunately the early days of the C-130 relocation to Brize weren't handled particularly well by some. At one meeting with the locals, the Brize station representatives were politely asked why the C-130s weren't sticking to the Station Flying Order Book requirements. Some huffing and puffing and "I'm sure that's not correct" noises were forthcoming, until the well-primed village spokesman read out the exact reference specifying circuit height and 'village avoid' requirements which applied to all station-based aircraft (including the flying club), but which the C-130s weren't observing. 'Collapse of stout party', as the saying goes! But at least that was soon sorted out.
The problem of C-130 engine running was the time at which it was often conducted. To many it seems that the standard Hercules servicing policy calls for engine runs - or that absurdly noisy auxiliary power unit - at totally unacceptable times of day/night. Of course some runs are essential, but quite so many? Mind you, I'm told that Belfast engine runs were far, far worse. I heard one once at RAF Abingdon in 1973 during our UAS Summer Camp - it went on for most of the day!
The Atlas should require far fewer engine ground runs as it is a 21st Century design with rather more on-board diagnostics. But currently I hear that the Atlas hangar is threatened by the potential impact upon the local Great Crested Newt population, a species protected by the UK Biodiversity Action Plan....
That might seem quite daft; sorry, but that's UK policy.Unfortunately the early days of the C-130 relocation to Brize weren't handled particularly well by some. At one meeting with the locals, the Brize station representatives were politely asked why the C-130s weren't sticking to the Station Flying Order Book requirements. Some huffing and puffing and "I'm sure that's not correct" noises were forthcoming, until the well-primed village spokesman read out the exact reference specifying circuit height and 'village avoid' requirements which applied to all station-based aircraft (including the flying club), but which the C-130s weren't observing. 'Collapse of stout party', as the saying goes! But at least that was soon sorted out.
Last edited by BEagle; 7th Oct 2013 at 20:42.
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What did they do, rewrite the Station Flying Order Book?
Ohh the Cynic in me
Ohh the Cynic in me
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Beagle - there is no 'Flying Order Book' at Brize & hasn't been since the move of the C130 there - the rules are contained in BZAOs - pedantic perhaps but it serves to cast doubt on the veracity of the story that you heard as you no doubt weren't there.
When we first arrived C130 circuit height was 1000 ft agl while the 'big jets' flew 1500 ft ones. After only a short interval & enough whinging from the locals all ccts were raised to the common height. So the 'well primed village spokesman' was perhaps not so well-primed as he / you thought.
When we first arrived C130 circuit height was 1000 ft agl while the 'big jets' flew 1500 ft ones. After only a short interval & enough whinging from the locals all ccts were raised to the common height. So the 'well primed village spokesman' was perhaps not so well-primed as he / you thought.
But of course, simply raising the cct height had no consequences...
Such as contravening SOP with regards to flying Flapless and Double asymmetric ccts which were based on a cct of 1000ft AAL.
My point being that even a seemingly simple change suddenly forces operators to fly outside of SOP. In today's post-Haddon Cave world, nothing is simple.
However, the MOD will have saved around £150million over 10yrs post the move from Lyneham so alles ist gut!
Such as contravening SOP with regards to flying Flapless and Double asymmetric ccts which were based on a cct of 1000ft AAL.
My point being that even a seemingly simple change suddenly forces operators to fly outside of SOP. In today's post-Haddon Cave world, nothing is simple.
However, the MOD will have saved around £150million over 10yrs post the move from Lyneham so alles ist gut!
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There is also the issue of planting trees which are not native to British West Oxfordshire and the resulting influence on the local eco-system.....
And as for the ecosystem I am sure they plant these bloody newt things when ever they hear there is a project kicking off. I was at a project civilian that involved an old oil pipe yard. The planning permission was put in for a shot blasting plant and the newts aspect reared its head. Funny as the area in question had been covered in radioactive scale for years and used to get sprayed down with diesel. And one of the reasons why the spot was chosen was they were going to have to dig out 3 m down anyway to get rid of the contamination.
They found newts. And two weeks later lots of dead newts. Didn't stop it dragging out for years though. They wanted it decontaminated then left to see if they would come back. Not much chance of that after they replaced the bottom two meters with sandy soil and the top with local top soil. Best drained bit of the yard after that.
When we first arrived C130 circuit height was 1000 ft agl...
And I can assure you that I know very well that the village spokesman was indeed well-primed......
The 'whinging' from the locals was well justified as the 'new arrivals' weren't complying with local orders (in whatever publication you wish to quote), including well-know 'village avoids', with which all other aerodrome users complied.
If you read the newspaper and the number of court cases between house holders about said tree's in the area its not as if your introducing something new.
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A specific exception for the JATE C-130 only.
The problem with visual circuits is that the 'bomber' circuits for the jets took them well outside most of the local villages - those for the C130s are closer (1.5nm displaced) so affect Aston, Bampton & Clanfield more. As for avoiding them the noise footprint of a C130 is best directly below but worse off to the side so in trying to avoid the villages (which we do) all we do is make things louder for them.
And I can assure you that I know very well that the village spokesman was indeed well-primed......
Your well known antipathy to the C130 force is typical of the long-prevailing Brize attitude to Lyneham that finally achieved its ultimate 'victory' - the closure of the secret Wiltshire airbase - and got the RAF in the mess it currently is in. The residents of Wiltshire were proud & supportive of 'their' airfield & would have the C130s back in a moment.
The residents of Wiltshire were proud & supportive of 'their' airfield & would have the C130s back in a moment.
The problem with visual circuits is that the 'bomber' circuits for the jets took them well outside most of the local villages - those for the C130s are closer (1.5nm displaced) so affect Aston, Bampton & Clanfield more.
Assuming you lot bother to read TAPs, which part of that didn't you understand? Or maybe it was this part:
Do we infer then that it was you that primed him (even if incorrectly)....?
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Congratulations Beagle, you have the current TAPs - I could have posted those as those are the ones in force currently.
I'm talking about those in force when the C130s moved across in 2011 - I don't suppose you'd care to post those? The current regulations are not in question, just your persistent (& incorrect) assertion that they were in use back then.
As to the notion of 'chips', none here, although someone seems to have one against tactical air transport.
I'm talking about those in force when the C130s moved across in 2011 - I don't suppose you'd care to post those? The current regulations are not in question, just your persistent (& incorrect) assertion that they were in use back then.
As to the notion of 'chips', none here, although someone seems to have one against tactical air transport.
Actually, those were the TAPs dated 22 Sep 11. More or less the same as they'd been for the previous 25+ years....
Ever since the VCTA was raised to take account of TriStar GPWS issues.
For example, plate C1 'BRIZE NORTON NOISE ABATEMENT' dated 1 Jun 00 has the very same wording:
Tactical...
By the way, there's a branch of Specsavers in Witney - ideal for those who can't read TAPs....
Ever since the VCTA was raised to take account of TriStar GPWS issues.For example, plate C1 'BRIZE NORTON NOISE ABATEMENT' dated 1 Jun 00 has the very same wording:
Tactical...
By the way, there's a branch of Specsavers in Witney - ideal for those who can't read TAPs....
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The 2000 TAP did indeed have the cct height at 1500 ft agl & when we used to visit Brize on a PD we flew 'high-level' ccts. When we re-located to Brize in 2011 there was a short-lived attempt to fly C130 ccts iaw our SOP ie: at 1000ft agl. But then you weren't there in 2011 so you wouldn't know that.....
No point in going to Specsavers as the RAF has its contract for CFS with another opticians, in Swindon I believe.
No point in going to Specsavers as the RAF has its contract for CFS with another opticians, in Swindon I believe.
The TAP was not restricted to visiting aircraft. Yes, there was a futile attempt by the 'newcomers' to annoy the local populace by blithely ignoring the extant requirements and flying lower than other aircraft, including at night, but this clearly was doomed to failure.
As a result, all the C-130s did was to cause animosity and resentment. Smart move that.
As a result, all the C-130s did was to cause animosity and resentment. Smart move that.
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It just demonstrated the foolishness of trying to mix a tactical aircraft with its greater emphasis on aircraft handling into an airfield of predominantly strategic assets.
We're agreed on one point then - it wasn't a smart move to co-locate Lyneham & Brize. There aren't many (any?) of the C130 force glad to be there.
We're agreed on one point then - it wasn't a smart move to co-locate Lyneham & Brize. There aren't many (any?) of the C130 force glad to be there.
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Whilst having a pop at each other as to the stupidity of having the C130 at Brize and the forthcoming arrival of the 400, you are making you point of view to the wrong people..
I cannot see how they are making a saving of 150 million by closing Lyneham, because they are not closing it, add to that the cost of building facilities at Brize to take the Herc, something that was already in place with the infrastructure to support them at Lyneham. Then add to that the fact you are now having to convert those facilities at Lyneham to turn it into a training base, whilst pulling out of the likes of Cosford that already has the facilities and infrastructure in place. Except Cosford probably won't close fully as you have the Museum there and excellent transport facilities.
Add that little lot up and the supposed 150 mil savings is peanuts. It amazes me that in the 45 years since I did my basic training, the training facilities have moved from St Athans to Halton to Cosford and now to Lyneham, each move no doubt costing a small fortune in both construction of facilities and movement of all the facilities.
I cannot see how they are making a saving of 150 million by closing Lyneham, because they are not closing it, add to that the cost of building facilities at Brize to take the Herc, something that was already in place with the infrastructure to support them at Lyneham. Then add to that the fact you are now having to convert those facilities at Lyneham to turn it into a training base, whilst pulling out of the likes of Cosford that already has the facilities and infrastructure in place. Except Cosford probably won't close fully as you have the Museum there and excellent transport facilities.
Add that little lot up and the supposed 150 mil savings is peanuts. It amazes me that in the 45 years since I did my basic training, the training facilities have moved from St Athans to Halton to Cosford and now to Lyneham, each move no doubt costing a small fortune in both construction of facilities and movement of all the facilities.
Last edited by NutLoose; 8th Oct 2013 at 22:23.
BEagle,
You state, "Yes, there was a futile attempt by the 'newcomers' to annoy the local populace by blithely ignoring the extant requirements and flying lower than other aircraft, including at night, but this clearly was doomed to failure."
Yet another anti-C130 post from you - emotional and inaccurate! The TAPs were changed for the arrival of the C130 and allowed 1000 ft QFE circuits - unfortunately I cannot prove it is I don't keep an extensive library of out of date documents! Inevitably the noise complaints increased and the rules were changed back.
We did not attempt (although we clearly succeeded, so the attempts were not "futile"!) to annoy the locals and did not blithely ignore the extant requirements - most of us have lived on or near airfields and know the impact noise can have. The current regulations require the villages to be avoided when below 1800 ft QNH - our in-house rules require us to avoid the villages when flying AT 1800 ft QNH.
course profile,
What happened to your late night post?
You state, "Yes, there was a futile attempt by the 'newcomers' to annoy the local populace by blithely ignoring the extant requirements and flying lower than other aircraft, including at night, but this clearly was doomed to failure."
Yet another anti-C130 post from you - emotional and inaccurate! The TAPs were changed for the arrival of the C130 and allowed 1000 ft QFE circuits - unfortunately I cannot prove it is I don't keep an extensive library of out of date documents! Inevitably the noise complaints increased and the rules were changed back.
We did not attempt (although we clearly succeeded, so the attempts were not "futile"!) to annoy the locals and did not blithely ignore the extant requirements - most of us have lived on or near airfields and know the impact noise can have. The current regulations require the villages to be avoided when below 1800 ft QNH - our in-house rules require us to avoid the villages when flying AT 1800 ft QNH.
course profile,
What happened to your late night post?
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Not sure, I used a slightly rude word (with asterisk!) so it might have been pulled? Sorry mods if that's the case.
Other than some kind of more complex emotional issue I can't think of a reason for Beagle to be so Anti Herc. We just did as we were told like everyone else and as always tried to make it work as best we could. I've got to say I thought Brize were really good with us when we arrived. There were people on both 'teams' who thought their way was best and no compromise but most people worked very hard to meet in the middle and to make things work - brings a tear to the eye!
I can confirm I was never in any meeting where we talked about how to best upset the locals whilst cackling and rubbing hands our together with glee.
Other than some kind of more complex emotional issue I can't think of a reason for Beagle to be so Anti Herc. We just did as we were told like everyone else and as always tried to make it work as best we could. I've got to say I thought Brize were really good with us when we arrived. There were people on both 'teams' who thought their way was best and no compromise but most people worked very hard to meet in the middle and to make things work - brings a tear to the eye!
I can confirm I was never in any meeting where we talked about how to best upset the locals whilst cackling and rubbing hands our together with glee.
Thread Starter
"It just demonstrated the foolishness of trying to mix a tactical aircraft with its greater emphasis on aircraft handling into an airfield of predominantly strategic assets".
What a load of rubbish, "greater emphasis on aircraft handling", we will be going down the track of our pilots are better than yours next!
What a load of rubbish, "greater emphasis on aircraft handling", we will be going down the track of our pilots are better than yours next!
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Certainly not an attempt to start a p***ing contest but the C130 does require a more 'hands-on' approach in its role compared to other stn types - the VC10 although magnitudes louder generally just departed off to lay its towline somewhere over the North Sea so that contrary to logic the locals found it less intrusive than the C130s.
The C130 needs to do more visual circuits as the 'ILS to land' is not the usual method as we operate to more austere airfields in general & in particular the requirement to land on NVGs requires visual circuits after dark which can be rather late in summer - although that it is mitigated to some extent by flying circuits at 3000ft agl which gives a more representative profile for TALT whilst putting the ac higher over the potential complainants.
All adds up to a need to fly more in the visual cct which places us more in conflict with the neighbours. As I said, not an attempt to start a 'mine's longer than yours' thread but a recognition that the roles of the various types at Brize do not necessarily make them good bedfellows given the acknowledged difficulties the local populace has always had with noise. This was pointed out back in 2003 when the Lyneham closure was first announced but was pretty much ignored with a 'it'll all work out' kind of attitude. Besides, too many VSO careers where dependent on forcing the closure through in the face of all logic and common sense all to achieve some nominal cost 'savings' that will have been more than swallowed up by additional unforeseen costs.
The sensible thing would have been to leave Lyneham alone until the OOSD of the C130 & then close the station then if no use could be found for it. But no one would have been promoted on the back of that plan hence we find ourselves in the current mess & facing a potential £300 million of litigation for noise. That will certainly blow any 'savings'.....
The C130 needs to do more visual circuits as the 'ILS to land' is not the usual method as we operate to more austere airfields in general & in particular the requirement to land on NVGs requires visual circuits after dark which can be rather late in summer - although that it is mitigated to some extent by flying circuits at 3000ft agl which gives a more representative profile for TALT whilst putting the ac higher over the potential complainants.
All adds up to a need to fly more in the visual cct which places us more in conflict with the neighbours. As I said, not an attempt to start a 'mine's longer than yours' thread but a recognition that the roles of the various types at Brize do not necessarily make them good bedfellows given the acknowledged difficulties the local populace has always had with noise. This was pointed out back in 2003 when the Lyneham closure was first announced but was pretty much ignored with a 'it'll all work out' kind of attitude. Besides, too many VSO careers where dependent on forcing the closure through in the face of all logic and common sense all to achieve some nominal cost 'savings' that will have been more than swallowed up by additional unforeseen costs.
The sensible thing would have been to leave Lyneham alone until the OOSD of the C130 & then close the station then if no use could be found for it. But no one would have been promoted on the back of that plan hence we find ourselves in the current mess & facing a potential £300 million of litigation for noise. That will certainly blow any 'savings'.....
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Nutloose
They keep on repeating the same mistakes. Nobody has any memories of what happened. Either because the weren't there or cant be bothered to find out what they did before and how it affected people
In 1970 two Britannia Sqns, 22 aircraft, 99 and 511 came to Brize from Lyneham. There was no extra hangar space. Belfast majors were at Abingdon and Brit majors at Aldergrove The Hangar capacity was 6 bays in Base Hangar, three bays were taken with VC10 Base 1,2 and 3 servicing, two bays for Brit servicing, leaving one bay spare plus the hangar that would take 3/4 of a Brit. up to the start of the fin That was the 2nd hangar (from the Bampton road) The one that Jate uses, if they're still there.
There weren't any Married Quarters for BZN people until Phase one (Stanmore Cres style) and then Phase two, Robinson close style. Phase one BTW was built by RAF shifts from both lines (VC10& Belfast LSS and Brit.LSS) on their standdowns. Block of flats took 2 weeks. There wasn't enough MQs for those already at Brize as it was. Brize had Hirings/MQs on the Smith's estate in Witney, Long Hanbrough, (between Witney and Woodstock) Wantage, Cirencester, Bampton, Fairford, Highworth, Down Ampney, South Cerney. On top of that guys were renting houses all over the place, anywhere they could get a place for their families. MT had a bus service to match Oxford South Midland bus Co. Even after the MQ building programmes were complete there were people still living in half the places I mentioned above.
Base Hangar had around 4-500 men at least. The line shifts must have had 50 blokes ,all trades and ranks to each shift. Brize was massive, roughly 5000 blokes, I might be a bit on the low side there. I used to get most Friday afternoons off, if not the whole day, we had so much over capacity in men.
So the Brize fleet was 13 VC10 (after 809 left) 22 Britannias and 10 Belfasts. It wasn't quiet then. Pre flight eng. runs and the Belfast was a pain for falling down on them and lasted for hours. The local fliers were at least three, one of each type were prepped each night for the next day (Mon-Fri) and 4 routes before it got light was an easy night shift. People complain more than they did and know there is a fair chance of compensation. Back then it wasn't common practise unless the farm animals started giving birth every time there heard a jet.
They keep on repeating the same mistakes. Nobody has any memories of what happened. Either because the weren't there or cant be bothered to find out what they did before and how it affected people
In 1970 two Britannia Sqns, 22 aircraft, 99 and 511 came to Brize from Lyneham. There was no extra hangar space. Belfast majors were at Abingdon and Brit majors at Aldergrove The Hangar capacity was 6 bays in Base Hangar, three bays were taken with VC10 Base 1,2 and 3 servicing, two bays for Brit servicing, leaving one bay spare plus the hangar that would take 3/4 of a Brit. up to the start of the fin That was the 2nd hangar (from the Bampton road) The one that Jate uses, if they're still there.
There weren't any Married Quarters for BZN people until Phase one (Stanmore Cres style) and then Phase two, Robinson close style. Phase one BTW was built by RAF shifts from both lines (VC10& Belfast LSS and Brit.LSS) on their standdowns. Block of flats took 2 weeks. There wasn't enough MQs for those already at Brize as it was. Brize had Hirings/MQs on the Smith's estate in Witney, Long Hanbrough, (between Witney and Woodstock) Wantage, Cirencester, Bampton, Fairford, Highworth, Down Ampney, South Cerney. On top of that guys were renting houses all over the place, anywhere they could get a place for their families. MT had a bus service to match Oxford South Midland bus Co. Even after the MQ building programmes were complete there were people still living in half the places I mentioned above.
Base Hangar had around 4-500 men at least. The line shifts must have had 50 blokes ,all trades and ranks to each shift. Brize was massive, roughly 5000 blokes, I might be a bit on the low side there. I used to get most Friday afternoons off, if not the whole day, we had so much over capacity in men.
So the Brize fleet was 13 VC10 (after 809 left) 22 Britannias and 10 Belfasts. It wasn't quiet then. Pre flight eng. runs and the Belfast was a pain for falling down on them and lasted for hours. The local fliers were at least three, one of each type were prepped each night for the next day (Mon-Fri) and 4 routes before it got light was an easy night shift. People complain more than they did and know there is a fair chance of compensation. Back then it wasn't common practise unless the farm animals started giving birth every time there heard a jet.
Last edited by vc10617; 9th Oct 2013 at 20:30.