Firemen Strike
I did my fitness test yesterday........note to self.......don't do the test on your first day back from 2 weeks leave! But I passed.......as I do every 6 months.......and as do the VAST majority of my colleagues. I'm not saying which brigade I'm from, but let's just say it is one of the very top performers (in every single category). Our management takes a robust view on fitness among other things!!!! Can I ask a question though gents.......and it is out of curiosity only.......but do the armed forces contribute to their pension or is it non contributory?
Our management takes a robust view on fitness among other things!!!!
Can I ask a question though gents.......and it is out of curiosity only.......but do the armed forces contribute to their pension or is it non contributory?
Laarbruch...........you're dead right........well done them indeed! I have no truck with the 2 individuals I know who fail repeatedly......they are both on improvement plans, but I have zero sympathy for them.......I'm 49 and can pass. They're younger and can't........aaaaaaaaaaargh!
The question about the pension wasn't meant to be mischievous.........honest guv'nor! But in case you didn't know, I pay 13% of my salary. I'm not grumbling by the way. I have no problem with you guys having a non contributory scheme though.........I don't look over the wall at others, with envy to be honest. Each to their own.
The question about the pension wasn't meant to be mischievous.........honest guv'nor! But in case you didn't know, I pay 13% of my salary. I'm not grumbling by the way. I have no problem with you guys having a non contributory scheme though.........I don't look over the wall at others, with envy to be honest. Each to their own.
Morpardave
Allegedly our pension is non-contributary, but then on the other hand the MoD are quick to point out how much it is worth in the amusing Armed Forces Benefits Calculator.
This tries to tell Armed Forces Personnel what a great deal they are on by pointing out that they get such things as "free" gym membership (in reality this is in the MOD's interest to keep us fit), "free" dental care (in reality we need to be dentally fit or our teeth will blow out with large aircraft pressure changes), "free" medical care (in reality we need aircrew medicals to be able to do the job they want us to do), etc...
The Armed Forces Pay Review Body take into account our non-contributary pension in their pay award. So overall, it's all a bit of a con!
You can pay additional contributions to boost it and quite a few do.
Finally, if you were to draw comparisons between Armed Forces and Emergency Service pay, then I believe that a Rating/Private/Leading Airraftsman is paid less than their Emergency Service counterpart - which would indicate that the Armed Forces Pension is actually a compulsory contribution!
The B Word
Allegedly our pension is non-contributary, but then on the other hand the MoD are quick to point out how much it is worth in the amusing Armed Forces Benefits Calculator.
This tries to tell Armed Forces Personnel what a great deal they are on by pointing out that they get such things as "free" gym membership (in reality this is in the MOD's interest to keep us fit), "free" dental care (in reality we need to be dentally fit or our teeth will blow out with large aircraft pressure changes), "free" medical care (in reality we need aircrew medicals to be able to do the job they want us to do), etc...
The Armed Forces Pay Review Body take into account our non-contributary pension in their pay award. So overall, it's all a bit of a con!
You can pay additional contributions to boost it and quite a few do.
Finally, if you were to draw comparisons between Armed Forces and Emergency Service pay, then I believe that a Rating/Private/Leading Airraftsman is paid less than their Emergency Service counterpart - which would indicate that the Armed Forces Pension is actually a compulsory contribution!
The B Word
PS. Here is a link to the pay comparison article by the BBC BBC News - How well are police officers paid?
It's a bit old, but shows how Armed Forces pay is lower.
Now, I've no axe to grind over this with Emergency Service colleagues as our terms and conditions are vastly different. Furthermore, I don't begrudge your ability to strike; it is a legal right for you guys. However, there are many things that are legal that I don't agree with either!
In fact, I'm such a staunch believer that unions do more harm than good and are an outdated form of employee representation in the workplace, that I would never join a union if I were able. I believe they are mostly champagne socialists living off the subs of hard-pressed workers for their own gains and lining their pockets.
I much prefer the Police Federation's methods of protest marching and significant lobbying of the senior management than physical strike action. When people strike, the biggest losers are the strikers as they stand to damage their reputation within the organisation and also do not get paid (which means the families suffer).
The B Word
PPS. Here is the Armed Forces Benefits Calc as well Armed Forces Benefits & Pension Calculator
It's a bit old, but shows how Armed Forces pay is lower.
Now, I've no axe to grind over this with Emergency Service colleagues as our terms and conditions are vastly different. Furthermore, I don't begrudge your ability to strike; it is a legal right for you guys. However, there are many things that are legal that I don't agree with either!
In fact, I'm such a staunch believer that unions do more harm than good and are an outdated form of employee representation in the workplace, that I would never join a union if I were able. I believe they are mostly champagne socialists living off the subs of hard-pressed workers for their own gains and lining their pockets.
I much prefer the Police Federation's methods of protest marching and significant lobbying of the senior management than physical strike action. When people strike, the biggest losers are the strikers as they stand to damage their reputation within the organisation and also do not get paid (which means the families suffer).
The B Word
PPS. Here is the Armed Forces Benefits Calc as well Armed Forces Benefits & Pension Calculator
Last edited by The B Word; 21st Sep 2013 at 22:41.
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"...unions an outdated form of representation in the workplace" -compared to what? The big public "service" unions are clearly going to play whatever cards they can in their members interests. Whether the wider public will be prepared to pay up when their own pensions are so much less generous is another debate. But we shouldnt let the rights and wrongs of this argument lead to blasting unions in general.
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Morpeth Dave........
I believe that our pensions are classed as non-contributory, BUT (and it is a big but) the Armed Forces Pay Review Board (AFPRB) declared about 15 years ago that military pay is abated by about 11% compared to the civilian comparator used in order to fund the Armed Forces Pension Scheme(s).............this is why people being booted out, no longer lose their pensions, because they effectively have made contributions!!!
hope thats clear.
I believe that our pensions are classed as non-contributory, BUT (and it is a big but) the Armed Forces Pay Review Board (AFPRB) declared about 15 years ago that military pay is abated by about 11% compared to the civilian comparator used in order to fund the Armed Forces Pension Scheme(s).............this is why people being booted out, no longer lose their pensions, because they effectively have made contributions!!!
hope thats clear.
How is it that striking firemen are shown leaving the fire station in their fire fighting kit. Surely if they are on strike, they are not on "duty" and thus should not be in "uniform". Good on the employer (Surrey I think) who decided if they did not work a whole shift they do not get paid for that day.
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Originally Posted by Wander00
Good on the employer (Surrey I think) who decided if they did not work a whole shift they do not get paid for that day.
Last edited by gr4techie; 25th Sep 2013 at 14:17.
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The B Word,
One of the reasons that the police don't strike is because, like the armed forces, they can't.
That said some 20 odd years ago the civil workers in the police service were called to strike by Unison (or what ever they were then).
In the control room I worked in, no-one stopped worked that day because we felt providing a 999 response was more important. One person however did report sick.
One of the reasons that the police don't strike is because, like the armed forces, they can't.
That said some 20 odd years ago the civil workers in the police service were called to strike by Unison (or what ever they were then).
In the control room I worked in, no-one stopped worked that day because we felt providing a 999 response was more important. One person however did report sick.
The B Word #66,
Thanks for that link, it does highlight the pay rate that servicemen sacrifice for their "non contributory" pensions. As I see that, at entry level the serviceman's pay is around £6000 a year down on a fireman's pay. Around 40% of the annual remuneration? That being so I doubt that many of the emergency services have a great deal to gripe about by comparison. Never mind me though, I still struggle with the thought of someone earning more than £25K a year at SNCO level in the RAF.
Smudge
Thanks for that link, it does highlight the pay rate that servicemen sacrifice for their "non contributory" pensions. As I see that, at entry level the serviceman's pay is around £6000 a year down on a fireman's pay. Around 40% of the annual remuneration? That being so I doubt that many of the emergency services have a great deal to gripe about by comparison. Never mind me though, I still struggle with the thought of someone earning more than £25K a year at SNCO level in the RAF.
Smudge
Just my tenpennethworth:
Having seen Firecrews in action for 14 years, when I was acting as CP for a police air support unit engaged in 24/7 HEMS at the same time; I would like to add my support to their cause.
It's already been said that when someone signs up for the (low paid) job to start with, they do it predominently because of its standing in the community (akin to teachers/nurses/police). Money is not top of the list. If the employer offers them x,y and Z then it should be honoured - full stop. Uniquely for firepersons, theirs is much much more demanding physically and surely no-one can expect a 55 yr old fireman to act like a 25 or 35 yr old in this regard???
The fly in the ointment is that secondary duties are few and far between and so they can't simply fall back to a second line job.
Above all else - having arrived at hundreds of RTC's, disaster sites, et al minutes after the call has gone out, it is always the fire teams that are there already absorbing the full on blunt force, in your face disaster of bodies and pain.....and it is the same people there at the end removing the last corpse and clearing up the wreckage and personal belongings of Mr and Mrs Smith and their three children in their people carrier on the M4 in fog.
They are subject to enormous physical and psychological trauma during that time frame and yet they NEVER EVER complain. They get on with it as a co-ordinated and well organised team.
Now is the time for US (as recipients of their service in the past in some shape or form) to support them in something which is a fundamnetal right for nearly everyone in this forum reading this - their PENSION. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wait for the day to come when the MoD have to work to 65 - then we will see sparks fly, won't we?
Having seen Firecrews in action for 14 years, when I was acting as CP for a police air support unit engaged in 24/7 HEMS at the same time; I would like to add my support to their cause.
It's already been said that when someone signs up for the (low paid) job to start with, they do it predominently because of its standing in the community (akin to teachers/nurses/police). Money is not top of the list. If the employer offers them x,y and Z then it should be honoured - full stop. Uniquely for firepersons, theirs is much much more demanding physically and surely no-one can expect a 55 yr old fireman to act like a 25 or 35 yr old in this regard???
The fly in the ointment is that secondary duties are few and far between and so they can't simply fall back to a second line job.
Above all else - having arrived at hundreds of RTC's, disaster sites, et al minutes after the call has gone out, it is always the fire teams that are there already absorbing the full on blunt force, in your face disaster of bodies and pain.....and it is the same people there at the end removing the last corpse and clearing up the wreckage and personal belongings of Mr and Mrs Smith and their three children in their people carrier on the M4 in fog.
They are subject to enormous physical and psychological trauma during that time frame and yet they NEVER EVER complain. They get on with it as a co-ordinated and well organised team.
Now is the time for US (as recipients of their service in the past in some shape or form) to support them in something which is a fundamnetal right for nearly everyone in this forum reading this - their PENSION. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wait for the day to come when the MoD have to work to 65 - then we will see sparks fly, won't we?
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Wait for the day to come when the MoD have to work to 65 - then we will see sparks fly, won't we?
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PS. Here is a link to the pay comparison article by the BBC BBC News - How well are police officers paid?
I much prefer the Police Federation's methods of protest marching and significant lobbying of the senior management than physical strike action.
I much prefer the Police Federation's methods of protest marching and significant lobbying of the senior management than physical strike action.
Nope, still no bleeding heart here...
Have a look at http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...refighters.doc
This details NFPS 2006, which they are striking about - yes, a pension that was introduced SEVEN years ago.
From what I read, I see that they accrue at 1/60th of final salary. If they make age 55 they can have a pension which would be 25% acturalily reduced, or make it to 60 and get the lot. If they don't make 55, they still get a pension at age 65 - just like most people. If they fail their fitness test due to ill health and not being too fat and lardy they get a disability pension - depending on whether they can work or not depends on the Tier of their disability pension.
Sounds familiar? Yup its a variation on the military pension that most earn on this Military Aircrew forum.
As for Unions, so just remind me how many successful strikes have there been in the late 20th Century? The Miner's Strike and the British Leyland strikes didn't work out so well for the workforce or the companies did they?
Make no bones, the Firemen will probably reap what they sow. It's a shame really as most firemen are normally salt of the earth types and decent people. Sadly, looking at public support they are getting this massively wrong.
The B Word
Have a look at http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...refighters.doc
This details NFPS 2006, which they are striking about - yes, a pension that was introduced SEVEN years ago.
From what I read, I see that they accrue at 1/60th of final salary. If they make age 55 they can have a pension which would be 25% acturalily reduced, or make it to 60 and get the lot. If they don't make 55, they still get a pension at age 65 - just like most people. If they fail their fitness test due to ill health and not being too fat and lardy they get a disability pension - depending on whether they can work or not depends on the Tier of their disability pension.
Sounds familiar? Yup its a variation on the military pension that most earn on this Military Aircrew forum.
As for Unions, so just remind me how many successful strikes have there been in the late 20th Century? The Miner's Strike and the British Leyland strikes didn't work out so well for the workforce or the companies did they?
Make no bones, the Firemen will probably reap what they sow. It's a shame really as most firemen are normally salt of the earth types and decent people. Sadly, looking at public support they are getting this massively wrong.
The B Word
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I struggle to understand why people cannot see exactly what is wrong with the governments actions here.
I would also like to point out that if they succeed where do you think they will stop?
Or more to the point, what minority demographic will be next.
Ex forces personnel? Whats to stop them eh, what's to stop them?
I would also like to point out that if they succeed where do you think they will stop?
Or more to the point, what minority demographic will be next.
Ex forces personnel? Whats to stop them eh, what's to stop them?
Al R
Well said, Sir...
Glad Rag, do you really think there is some sort of conspiracy? Have you got your tinfoil hat on and are you sitting in your Faraday's Cage? I'll let you into a secret...
...We can't afford all of the public-sector pensions that previous Governments (red and blue) have signed us up for.
LJ
Well said, Sir...
Glad Rag, do you really think there is some sort of conspiracy? Have you got your tinfoil hat on and are you sitting in your Faraday's Cage? I'll let you into a secret...
...We can't afford all of the public-sector pensions that previous Governments (red and blue) have signed us up for.
LJ