Paper Plates!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Took about 2 days before they ran out of cutlery as the troops didn't believe there was enough to go around and snaffled them from the servery.
PS, who remembers the one pint nylon ones you could get from NAAFI?
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 18th Sep 2013 at 19:25.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Well watered I presume and bet it tasted good.
From the Waddo OM website
I knew things were bad but I didn't think they had to resort to cannibalism
Non-entitled personnel will be a £1.00 supplement on all Classic Meals.
I knew things were bad but I didn't think they had to resort to cannibalism
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With reference to the comparisons with the Premier Inn above, it's hardly like with like is it? I stay in Premier Inns a lot on my travels (good VFM), and they rarely cost me less than fifty-sixty quid a night. I don't recall the accommodation component of my living in charges costing me £1800 a month? More like a tenth of that figure.
Don't get me wrong...I'm no fan of officers mess accommodation. I've stayed in rooms that would compare badly with Battersea Dogs Home, let alone a one star motel, but I guess you get what you pay for.
The two things that always got right up my nose when I lived in (and got me in hot water several times for my "unacceptable" comments in the suggestions book) were...
The willingness to splurge huge wads of dosh on the public rooms, whilst spending the square root of **** all on liver's-in rooms and facilities.
And, the mindless, jobsworth, you-can't-do-that obstruction anytime any liver in came up with good idea for making our life better (even when we were willing to pay for it).
I bet it has not changed either. With glorious hindsight I now realise I wasted wwwaaaaaayyyyy too much of my life, living in.
Live out in the community single chaps and chapesses. B*gger the cost.
Don't get me wrong...I'm no fan of officers mess accommodation. I've stayed in rooms that would compare badly with Battersea Dogs Home, let alone a one star motel, but I guess you get what you pay for.
The two things that always got right up my nose when I lived in (and got me in hot water several times for my "unacceptable" comments in the suggestions book) were...
The willingness to splurge huge wads of dosh on the public rooms, whilst spending the square root of **** all on liver's-in rooms and facilities.
And, the mindless, jobsworth, you-can't-do-that obstruction anytime any liver in came up with good idea for making our life better (even when we were willing to pay for it).
I bet it has not changed either. With glorious hindsight I now realise I wasted wwwaaaaaayyyyy too much of my life, living in.
Live out in the community single chaps and chapesses. B*gger the cost.
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I was hosting a group of Americans the other day at Waddo and was utterly embarrased by not only the paper plate situation, but the food was terrible. It lived up in every way to that American banter about dreadful British food. I was ashamed to have brought them into the Mess.
Waddington used to be fabulous for food, but with contractorisation it has gone beyond downhill. As for the H&S crap about being unable to wash up, what utter hoop. The company needs to grow up and focus on the delivery of the service. Paper plates in an Officers Mess is frankly not acceptable. This is not some pretentios Officers Standards issue that , but the OM is used to host influential people and such poor standard reflect on our Serivce and Country.
This is admin triv, but has wider repercussions. Something needs to be done!
Waddington used to be fabulous for food, but with contractorisation it has gone beyond downhill. As for the H&S crap about being unable to wash up, what utter hoop. The company needs to grow up and focus on the delivery of the service. Paper plates in an Officers Mess is frankly not acceptable. This is not some pretentios Officers Standards issue that , but the OM is used to host influential people and such poor standard reflect on our Serivce and Country.
This is admin triv, but has wider repercussions. Something needs to be done!
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I was accommodated at Mons Barracks Officers' Mess one time in the late seventies. My quarters consisted of a suite with separate bedroom and a sitting room furnished with a huge leather sofa and a large, solidly built bureau. There was a chap who shone my shoes and tidied up. Meals were served in a nice homely dining room - long mahogany tables with linen table cloths and napkins, bone chinaware and uniformed waitresses. My mess bill when I left came to a modest (1979) £30. The standard of the Garrison Sergeants' Mess at Aldershot wasn't far behind, though the accommodation didn't include a suite, just a well furnished bedroom on an upper floor. For living-in SNCOs at Northolt in 1974 the Sergeants Mess didn't include quarters: SNCOs were accommodated in single rooms in a separate barrack block, but the Mess building itself was well run with proper linen and waitress service of full three course meals.
It seems to me that someone is taking the p**s out of todays Officers and SNCOs.
It seems to me that someone is taking the p**s out of todays Officers and SNCOs.
I do hope this thread has made its way into the Air Command Ivory Towers. Whilst we can chuckle about paper plates and reminisce about washing mess tins, it is frankly sympotmatic of the general decline in standards across all the Services.
I have no doubt that someone will bang on about value for money and flexibility along with a whole raft of other crap management speak being used to dress up a decline in standards as being a good thing, but that is what this is - as MRAF pointed out. On what planet do we now think that a baguette, a packet of crisps and a bottle of fizzy chemicals is deemed to be an acceptable standard for routine catering? That's the sort of thing you used to get on exercise if you were lucky because it was easy to do from a logs point of view; it's not the sort of thing you get on a daily basis because some contractor thinks it's an easy way to make a quick profit.
Unless somebody does something drastic and does it quick, the rot will be irreversible - if it isn't already. This is an Officers' Mess FFS, not some motorway cafe.
I have no doubt that someone will bang on about value for money and flexibility along with a whole raft of other crap management speak being used to dress up a decline in standards as being a good thing, but that is what this is - as MRAF pointed out. On what planet do we now think that a baguette, a packet of crisps and a bottle of fizzy chemicals is deemed to be an acceptable standard for routine catering? That's the sort of thing you used to get on exercise if you were lucky because it was easy to do from a logs point of view; it's not the sort of thing you get on a daily basis because some contractor thinks it's an easy way to make a quick profit.
Unless somebody does something drastic and does it quick, the rot will be irreversible - if it isn't already. This is an Officers' Mess FFS, not some motorway cafe.
In recent months I have ahd the mis-fortune to have needed to stay in the Mess at Waddo and the good fortune to visit a Danish military base and stay in their transit accommodation. The difference was unbelievable. Waddo - 1960s room that was in definite need to some TLC, toilets and showers a short walk down the corridor and PAYD breakfast in the same building a slightly longer walk down a corridor.
In Denmark the room was as good as many 3 star hotels I've stayed in. Ensuite, phone in room, comfortable bed, it even had a flat screen TV with a couple of English language channels - in fact only things missing were wifi and the minibar. Breakfast was in another bulding, a short walk across the car park, was also PAYD and was much better quality than the breakfast at Waddo.
I cannot believe that Waddo hasn't just got people doing washing up the traditional way - but its probably not in the contract. Paper plates maybe ok on ops, but for an MOB in the UK - just not acceptable. What a sad state of affairs.
In Denmark the room was as good as many 3 star hotels I've stayed in. Ensuite, phone in room, comfortable bed, it even had a flat screen TV with a couple of English language channels - in fact only things missing were wifi and the minibar. Breakfast was in another bulding, a short walk across the car park, was also PAYD and was much better quality than the breakfast at Waddo.
I cannot believe that Waddo hasn't just got people doing washing up the traditional way - but its probably not in the contract. Paper plates maybe ok on ops, but for an MOB in the UK - just not acceptable. What a sad state of affairs.
so are staishes indifferent/ ignorant/ impotent/ indisposed?
Time was when a staish exercised control, benevolent or otherwise.
Seems a fair question. My last mess was Brize 1996 .......... no complaints worth making except the rigid heating on/ heating off by calendar, which resulted in a huge electricity bill for a fortnight in autumn as all livers-in had a heater and often a microwave, so cold could it be in the dining room at breakfast.
Glad I am retired.
Time was when a staish exercised control, benevolent or otherwise.
Seems a fair question. My last mess was Brize 1996 .......... no complaints worth making except the rigid heating on/ heating off by calendar, which resulted in a huge electricity bill for a fortnight in autumn as all livers-in had a heater and often a microwave, so cold could it be in the dining room at breakfast.
Glad I am retired.
no complaints worth making except the rigid heating on/ heating off by calendar, which resulted in a huge electricity bill for a fortnight in autumn as all livers-in had a heater and often a microwave, so cold could it be in the dining room at breakfast.
Roger that sir - so like most people, I'm now the proud owner of a 4kw heater that is plugged in from breakfast till bedtime. Returning to the mess in the dusk, you can see all the rooms with electric bar heaters as they have a nice warm glow to them
Also, now we are operating under PAYD, almost all livers in have their own fridges, microwaves, George Forman electric grills etc, because it is easier and cheaper (and warmer) to cook for oneself.
Yet another step on the path to progress!
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RP ... Ironic as ISS are a Danish Company.
Always worth reading the AA ...
ISS Annual Accounts 2012
They are certainly making money ...
Surprise surprise they do school dinners ... Might have got the contracts mixed up
Seriously ...
Do the MOD hold regular "meaningful" Supplier Performance Meetings with these type of contracts based on performance data collected by the MOD and NOT the Supplier ? More importantly are such meetings held with Supplier Accountable Execs not middle/senior management ? Failure to deliver by the Supplier against defined/contracted KPI's SHOULD involve punitive fines/compensation.
With the greatest of respect there is no point in the PMC trying to do this at Station level ... he/she won't have sufficient leverage at whatever Rank.
So often is the case that there is a rush to write these type of contracts but little attention/value is seen in the subsequent performance management thereof
Yes ... I do have significant experience in this area ... I was once the COO for a Global IT Service organisation responsible, amongst other things, for all Supplier and Vendor Management activity purchased by us ...
Always worth reading the AA ...
ISS Annual Accounts 2012
They are certainly making money ...
Surprise surprise they do school dinners ... Might have got the contracts mixed up
Seriously ...
Do the MOD hold regular "meaningful" Supplier Performance Meetings with these type of contracts based on performance data collected by the MOD and NOT the Supplier ? More importantly are such meetings held with Supplier Accountable Execs not middle/senior management ? Failure to deliver by the Supplier against defined/contracted KPI's SHOULD involve punitive fines/compensation.
With the greatest of respect there is no point in the PMC trying to do this at Station level ... he/she won't have sufficient leverage at whatever Rank.
So often is the case that there is a rush to write these type of contracts but little attention/value is seen in the subsequent performance management thereof
Yes ... I do have significant experience in this area ... I was once the COO for a Global IT Service organisation responsible, amongst other things, for all Supplier and Vendor Management activity purchased by us ...
Can anyone confirm that this is still the state of affairs at Waddington?
I've been overseas for a while and returned to the UK and spent a couple of days at an Army Mess 'in the south of England'. The behaviour of the livers-in was spretty ordinary but understandable. Nobody went to the grim bar, guys read the papers on their ipads in the ante-room, often with their MTP PCS legs draped over the arm chairs, whilst feeding Rupert the Lab high tea scones (to be fair, they made excellent dog biscuits)
Christ, it was awful. The food was dire (book two days ahead, please), the rooms gloomy and in need of an urgent redec, the carpets worn through in the corridors, the furniture was the old mahogoney and formica stuff from the 1970s and the showers had the tiles peeling from the walls and pools of stagnant water sat upon the uneven (and clearly infrequently cleaned) floor. When I paid my bill, there was a charge for 'changing the linen' and for use of the Mess washing machines - and well as 'extra messing' ie, having a third course in the evening. Gosh, livin' the dream.
Now I know the contractor, A*p*r*, have been there an awfully long time. I also know that washine machines and driers are now publically funded and this Army 'nonsense' of paying to have your bedlinen changed went out with the Arc, or so I supposed. Exactly the same thing happened when I stayed in the same Mess as SLIM about 6 years ago and took it up with the elderly Garrison Commander, who agreed that it was wrong and that he would get this changed. Nothing happend. I've written to the Garrison Commander, probably still the elderly FTRS Lt Col, asking why personnel staying in his messes are still incorrectly charged.
Will I ever willingly go and live in a Mess? Never in a month of Sundays. Fortunately for me, this is now unlikely...
Edited to add that a number of Wg Cdrs, Gp Capts and 1*s got their OBEs and CBEs out of CRL (catering retail & leisure) proposals between 2005 - 2009 and it can't be reversed because the saving made (cue dubious accounting) have been sucked up and the money ain't there. Some of the dimmer proposals - eg having the public paying to use our gyms, luckily fell by the wayside as far as I am aware - mainly because our gyms are sh!t and very few people would pay to use them, when, for a modest monthly fee, one can join a professionally run civilian gym in a clean and modern building (not a 1940s converted barrack block), with decent showers and changing facilities. I could go on, by I am trying to hold my head in my hands as I type!
I've been overseas for a while and returned to the UK and spent a couple of days at an Army Mess 'in the south of England'. The behaviour of the livers-in was spretty ordinary but understandable. Nobody went to the grim bar, guys read the papers on their ipads in the ante-room, often with their MTP PCS legs draped over the arm chairs, whilst feeding Rupert the Lab high tea scones (to be fair, they made excellent dog biscuits)
Christ, it was awful. The food was dire (book two days ahead, please), the rooms gloomy and in need of an urgent redec, the carpets worn through in the corridors, the furniture was the old mahogoney and formica stuff from the 1970s and the showers had the tiles peeling from the walls and pools of stagnant water sat upon the uneven (and clearly infrequently cleaned) floor. When I paid my bill, there was a charge for 'changing the linen' and for use of the Mess washing machines - and well as 'extra messing' ie, having a third course in the evening. Gosh, livin' the dream.
Now I know the contractor, A*p*r*, have been there an awfully long time. I also know that washine machines and driers are now publically funded and this Army 'nonsense' of paying to have your bedlinen changed went out with the Arc, or so I supposed. Exactly the same thing happened when I stayed in the same Mess as SLIM about 6 years ago and took it up with the elderly Garrison Commander, who agreed that it was wrong and that he would get this changed. Nothing happend. I've written to the Garrison Commander, probably still the elderly FTRS Lt Col, asking why personnel staying in his messes are still incorrectly charged.
Will I ever willingly go and live in a Mess? Never in a month of Sundays. Fortunately for me, this is now unlikely...
Edited to add that a number of Wg Cdrs, Gp Capts and 1*s got their OBEs and CBEs out of CRL (catering retail & leisure) proposals between 2005 - 2009 and it can't be reversed because the saving made (cue dubious accounting) have been sucked up and the money ain't there. Some of the dimmer proposals - eg having the public paying to use our gyms, luckily fell by the wayside as far as I am aware - mainly because our gyms are sh!t and very few people would pay to use them, when, for a modest monthly fee, one can join a professionally run civilian gym in a clean and modern building (not a 1940s converted barrack block), with decent showers and changing facilities. I could go on, by I am trying to hold my head in my hands as I type!
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 19th Sep 2013 at 15:46.
Very early in my career [such as it was] I came up with a golden rule
NEVER STAY IN ACCOMMODATION THAT MRS LB WOULD NOT STAY IN.
Walk-outs included the staff hostel [sic[ at Aldermaston or was it Harwell, and RAF Church Fenton.
Detmold was marginal, but that was the company, not the mess.
I have a sneaky feeling that Sergeants' Messes may still be pretty good, as they have a well-developed knack for self-preservation.
NEVER STAY IN ACCOMMODATION THAT MRS LB WOULD NOT STAY IN.
Walk-outs included the staff hostel [sic[ at Aldermaston or was it Harwell, and RAF Church Fenton.
Detmold was marginal, but that was the company, not the mess.
I have a sneaky feeling that Sergeants' Messes may still be pretty good, as they have a well-developed knack for self-preservation.
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PS, who remembers the one pint nylon ones you could get from NAAFI?
Seeing I got an 'accompanied passage' and lived out for the entire tour, I started using it as a shaving mug.
And 51 years later I still do!
I've been overseas for a while and returned to the UK and spent a couple of days at an Army Mess 'in the south of England'
When I went to report the issue to Mess reception (contractorised) I was told that it had been reported and would be fixed within the next 2 weeks. Apparently the contractors thought it was fine for us to stay in freezing accommodation with no hot water. I was lucky and lived an hour up the road so voted with my feet much to the irritation of the course director and the Mess manager. Explained to the Chief Clerk the sudden appearance of an unplanned for and unauthorised MMA bill on my return to unit, which after a bit of nodding, was processed.
As much as I hate to say it, because a. I had some very happy times in the Mess both as an O/Cdt and a JO and b. I do understand how Mess life contributes to the morale component, but frankly the state of most Messes these days is nothing short of a disgrace. You wouldn't let your dog linger on in such suffering, so why do we not just admit that the accountants have won again, Messes are too expensive to do properly and just move to a US-type system of people living off base with a social club on site. As I said, a good Mess will contribute massively to the morale of a unit and its operational effectiveness. Unfortunately all they seem to do these days is depress morale and cause much angst.
Last edited by Melchett01; 19th Sep 2013 at 17:37.
Melchett, like you, I enjoyed my life in the Mess as a Junior Officer and wish we could recreate that cameraderie - a cross between membership of a Lodge (apparently) and Animal House!
A couple of years back I visited a colleague who was undertaaking a fellowship at an Oxbridge College. He took college digs - excellent 2-room suite with its own bathroom and toilet - and serviced daily. Meals were taken in the Great Hall - albeit with a swipe card - but served - proper crockery, silverware and expected (and enforced) standards of dress and behaviour. The food was excellent and Formal Hall (which I attended as a guest) was as every bit impressive (and as fun) as a Dining In night of days of yore. The costs? The same (at the time) of a liver-in in a typical RAF (not Army) mess. Facilites and accommodation were well maintained and modern. The college in question had considered out-sourcing catering, but apparently anticipated that the loss of tradition and quality would not be worth the effort.
How can we get this wrong? All the concerns raised by other posters were considered over the last 8 years that CRL has been developed and now implemented. They were all dismissed.
A couple of years back I visited a colleague who was undertaaking a fellowship at an Oxbridge College. He took college digs - excellent 2-room suite with its own bathroom and toilet - and serviced daily. Meals were taken in the Great Hall - albeit with a swipe card - but served - proper crockery, silverware and expected (and enforced) standards of dress and behaviour. The food was excellent and Formal Hall (which I attended as a guest) was as every bit impressive (and as fun) as a Dining In night of days of yore. The costs? The same (at the time) of a liver-in in a typical RAF (not Army) mess. Facilites and accommodation were well maintained and modern. The college in question had considered out-sourcing catering, but apparently anticipated that the loss of tradition and quality would not be worth the effort.
How can we get this wrong? All the concerns raised by other posters were considered over the last 8 years that CRL has been developed and now implemented. They were all dismissed.