RAF F4 Phantom in the 70's
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Saw Bob P at the F4 TDPU last year, it was, I think, his first appearance. He and another chum, John S......n pitched up together. Bob is flying for Qatar Airways and lives out there, John is another airline pilot, though he mentioned some slight medical problem. Bob hasn't changed a bit since we met in 1973. Great bloke.
Last edited by thing; 25th Aug 2013 at 12:34.
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Thanks Fantom ...
Ouch! XV431 finally end up as a CAT5 following a take off from Bruggen where the wings weren't locked ... crew safely banged out
Ejection History : RAF Phantom XV431
Ouch! XV431 finally end up as a CAT5 following a take off from Bruggen where the wings weren't locked ... crew safely banged out
Ejection History : RAF Phantom XV431
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 25th Aug 2013 at 16:12.
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I remember 416 going in at Coningsby, both crew banged out. Bit surreal watching it, it took me a while to figure out the two 'chutes floating down were the crew. Not something you see every day.
I remember around '75 he drove a black (naturally) TR6 that every man and his dog was envious of.
Indeed. I paced him down the A1 quite well until abeam Hatfield. Then he got bored and by the North Circ. was well gone. TR6 v MGB(GT) - left me wishing I had the V8!
Indeed. I paced him down the A1 quite well until abeam Hatfield. Then he got bored and by the North Circ. was well gone. TR6 v MGB(GT) - left me wishing I had the V8!
Back to 431 for a moment, I found this account quite interesting:
An Accident Waiting to Happen
"If ever there was an accident waiting to happen it was this one. Having bought the Phantom as a stop gap measure the Brits managed to double the price and make it go slower. Principally this feat was achieved by cramming into the fuselage the Rolls Royce Spey engine.
One other way was to make the wings fold manually so there existed a situation where the wings were down but needed locking by an engineer with a brace and socket. A really nice added touch was to remove the wing pin warning lights in the cockpit so that not only could the wings be down and unlocked but there was nothing to warn a pilot as he lined up for take off.
All the warning lights were out.!
In the case of XV 431 the tiny wing spigots had been oversprayed green which blended in perfectly with the camouflaged wing."
The Ejection
"The ejection was interesting. The aircraft became airborne but immediately pitched to the vertical and I was sure it was going over on its back. Full forward pressure on the stick did nothing and at about a hundred feet rolling slightly to port I ordered my navigator to eject.
In the event I left the aircraft about 0.6 of a second ahead of him which in the event saved both our lives.
In those days there were no explosive bolts on the canopies and the seat would not fire until the canopy interlock had been removed. My canopy went over Kevin's canopy just as his was leaving, and I passed over Kevin just as he was rising up the rails.
My rocket motor lit at the advertised 6 feet and lightly toasted Kevin.
No time to lower the personal survival pack and without a full parachute we both hit the ground very hard just as XV431 blew up 100 feet from the QRA pen housing 4 nuclear loaded F4's.
Shortly afterwards the canopies were fitted with explosive bolts and the operating procedure in a time critical situation was changed so that the pilot left without warning, save for a loud bang, which would catch the attention of the most docile navigator.
Alas nothing was done about those little old warning lights and eight years later only the sharp eyes of a caravan controller saved yet another one of Her Majesty"s precious Phantoms."
Source:PILLEY_Ray
An Accident Waiting to Happen
"If ever there was an accident waiting to happen it was this one. Having bought the Phantom as a stop gap measure the Brits managed to double the price and make it go slower. Principally this feat was achieved by cramming into the fuselage the Rolls Royce Spey engine.
One other way was to make the wings fold manually so there existed a situation where the wings were down but needed locking by an engineer with a brace and socket. A really nice added touch was to remove the wing pin warning lights in the cockpit so that not only could the wings be down and unlocked but there was nothing to warn a pilot as he lined up for take off.
All the warning lights were out.!
In the case of XV 431 the tiny wing spigots had been oversprayed green which blended in perfectly with the camouflaged wing."
The Ejection
"The ejection was interesting. The aircraft became airborne but immediately pitched to the vertical and I was sure it was going over on its back. Full forward pressure on the stick did nothing and at about a hundred feet rolling slightly to port I ordered my navigator to eject.
In the event I left the aircraft about 0.6 of a second ahead of him which in the event saved both our lives.
In those days there were no explosive bolts on the canopies and the seat would not fire until the canopy interlock had been removed. My canopy went over Kevin's canopy just as his was leaving, and I passed over Kevin just as he was rising up the rails.
My rocket motor lit at the advertised 6 feet and lightly toasted Kevin.
No time to lower the personal survival pack and without a full parachute we both hit the ground very hard just as XV431 blew up 100 feet from the QRA pen housing 4 nuclear loaded F4's.
Shortly afterwards the canopies were fitted with explosive bolts and the operating procedure in a time critical situation was changed so that the pilot left without warning, save for a loud bang, which would catch the attention of the most docile navigator.
Alas nothing was done about those little old warning lights and eight years later only the sharp eyes of a caravan controller saved yet another one of Her Majesty"s precious Phantoms."
Source:PILLEY_Ray
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I may be missing something here ... But even if the wings needed locking manually ... Why on earth remove the warning light cockpit bulbs ?
The warning lights would have hardly been a distraction ... more a reassurance for the crew I would have thought. More importantly why wasn't it recommended to replace the bulbs after this terrible accident ?
The warning lights would have hardly been a distraction ... more a reassurance for the crew I would have thought. More importantly why wasn't it recommended to replace the bulbs after this terrible accident ?
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For those interested ... Here is a listing of the RAF F-4K (FG1)/F-4M (FGR2) and F-4J(UK) lost in service. Additional info on prior RN F-4K losses also included.
RIP to those crews who lost their lives.
UK Phantom Losses
RIP to those crews who lost their lives.
UK Phantom Losses
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I've done a bit more digging on the pic I posted @#10 yesterday.
I believe this is a very early picture, possibly taken as 43 Squadron became equipped with the Phantom. If you care to look at G banking away and compare with XT879 in the foreground, you'll notice that the Squadron's chequerboard stripe looks as if it is being "sucked in" to the intakes on XT879. Apparently this was the initial delivery default paint job that was subsequently corrected to the positioning (fuselage roundel moved aft) shown on G (4 squares showing as opposed to 2 and a bit).
It would be great to try and fix the date ...
Best
Coff.
I believe this is a very early picture, possibly taken as 43 Squadron became equipped with the Phantom. If you care to look at G banking away and compare with XT879 in the foreground, you'll notice that the Squadron's chequerboard stripe looks as if it is being "sucked in" to the intakes on XT879. Apparently this was the initial delivery default paint job that was subsequently corrected to the positioning (fuselage roundel moved aft) shown on G (4 squares showing as opposed to 2 and a bit).
It would be great to try and fix the date ...
Best
Coff.
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 25th Aug 2013 at 18:06.
Coff, as far as I know, the cockpit warning on the teleight panel was removed because the wing lock was no longer an aircrew action. A bit like having a caption for an undercarriage lock in place. The telelight remained in the F4K (FG1) because it was something you could, and often did, do from the cockpit. In the FGR2, checking that the wings were locked was a part of the walk round. Not saying that's a good reason, it's just my understanding of the situation.
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I remember at Coningsby the crew chief check was amended to include 'wing lock indicators flush' or something close to that after a floppy wing incident.
Edit: Just remembered, some F4's had a manual wing fold operation and some were hydraulic. Can't remember if the hydraulic ones had wing indicators.
Edit: Just remembered, some F4's had a manual wing fold operation and some were hydraulic. Can't remember if the hydraulic ones had wing indicators.
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Cheers Courtney ... Still feels a little strange to disable a servicible warning cap even if it was no longer an Aircrew FRC action other than during the pre flight walk round check ...
Edit: Cheers Thing
Edit: Cheers Thing
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 25th Aug 2013 at 18:51.
I was not involved in the removal of the wing fold lock warning light on the FGR 2 but I think Courtney's explanation for the logic behind it is probably correct.
I did have a minor involvement in the wing fold mechanism in the 1970's. As a young and inexperienced Mechanical Systems at HSA Brough I had to investigate a problem which, hopefully, I can explain better now than 40 years ago.
The issue was that as the wing fold hinge pins and bushes wore, the outer wing would drop slightly relative to the inner wing, when unlocked, so the locking pins and holes did not line up. The more the wear on the bushes, the greater the amount that the outer wing had to be lifted as the locking pins were inserted and the greater the loads required to drive in the locking pins with the brace that operated the mechanism.
I had to write a DOI (Drawing Office Instruction) to change the adjustment procedure which had to be signed by all the relevent tech departments, and I went to the Head of Structures. a notoriously crotchety engineer at the time. I obviously did not explain the requirement very well, as he could not understand why the locking pin loads went up as the hinge pin bush clearance increased. Eventually after an increasingly acrimonious attempt to reach an understanding I was told to stop wasting his time and that I was going to be reported to the Head of Systems for insubordination. Rather nervously I reported to the Head of Systems to warn him what was going to happen. Don't worry son he answered, he's just a miserable old bugger like the rest of the stressmen. I never heard any more of the disciplinary issue and got the DOI signed by Frank Frodin, who was the Phantom Structures Group Leader instead.
Several years later, after the Alconbury accident, I was also involved in re-writing the rigging procedure for the radome locking mechanism over centre latch.
I did have a minor involvement in the wing fold mechanism in the 1970's. As a young and inexperienced Mechanical Systems at HSA Brough I had to investigate a problem which, hopefully, I can explain better now than 40 years ago.
The issue was that as the wing fold hinge pins and bushes wore, the outer wing would drop slightly relative to the inner wing, when unlocked, so the locking pins and holes did not line up. The more the wear on the bushes, the greater the amount that the outer wing had to be lifted as the locking pins were inserted and the greater the loads required to drive in the locking pins with the brace that operated the mechanism.
I had to write a DOI (Drawing Office Instruction) to change the adjustment procedure which had to be signed by all the relevent tech departments, and I went to the Head of Structures. a notoriously crotchety engineer at the time. I obviously did not explain the requirement very well, as he could not understand why the locking pin loads went up as the hinge pin bush clearance increased. Eventually after an increasingly acrimonious attempt to reach an understanding I was told to stop wasting his time and that I was going to be reported to the Head of Systems for insubordination. Rather nervously I reported to the Head of Systems to warn him what was going to happen. Don't worry son he answered, he's just a miserable old bugger like the rest of the stressmen. I never heard any more of the disciplinary issue and got the DOI signed by Frank Frodin, who was the Phantom Structures Group Leader instead.
Several years later, after the Alconbury accident, I was also involved in re-writing the rigging procedure for the radome locking mechanism over centre latch.
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Excellent post Walbut, it was indeed true that the locking pins needed some serious waggling of the outboard section to get them in place. I also have a half memory of the pin housings fracturing, did you ever hear of that? I may be mistaken.
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Thanks Sandozer ... I agree it's an early photo maybe even to mark 43 attaining Front Line status with the F4
I remember a really great picture of the Coningsby Flight-Line showing some 20 odd Phantoms ... anyone got a copy to share here ?
Coff.
I remember a really great picture of the Coningsby Flight-Line showing some 20 odd Phantoms ... anyone got a copy to share here ?
Coff.
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Is this the one you're thinking of Coff?
(credit - Pete Mears)
Plenty more great photos on this website- Home of The Phantomeers
-RP
(credit - Pete Mears)Plenty more great photos on this website- Home of The Phantomeers
-RP
Last edited by Rhino power; 26th Aug 2013 at 15:01.
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Cheers Rhino ...
Yep I've seen that one
I think 29's aircraft were in the foreground on the one I'm hoping someone has a copy of to share.
Coff.
Yep I've seen that one
I think 29's aircraft were in the foreground on the one I'm hoping someone has a copy of to share.
Coff.
Impressive pic, Rhino. Three points: 2nd a/c in - rear seat scissor shackle not properly connected. 5th a/c in - static vent bungs not removed (starboard side). 7th a/c in - crew cheif has hi-viz jacket on back-to-front. The rest are a bit far away to tell.