In Scotland's Defence
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N500 like or loathe is irrelevant as previously stated he is the democratically elected leader of Scotland right now with a manifesto of leading Scotland to independence ie making Scotland an independent nation a nation as as the name suggests Scottish national party.
Salmond is a bully! His views should be treated as such. Well done D Trump for exposing his total lack of understanding when it comes to the financial future for Scotland!
His performance in the Royal Box at Wimbledon says it all!! No manners, no style and no understanding of the people!
He will be banished to a political widerness come the next election!
Ask yourself this question! Would you be happy with him as president of an independent Scotland?
Off to bed now with trip wires set and the prospect of another days fishing tomorrow!
His performance in the Royal Box at Wimbledon says it all!! No manners, no style and no understanding of the people!
He will be banished to a political widerness come the next election!
Ask yourself this question! Would you be happy with him as president of an independent Scotland?
Off to bed now with trip wires set and the prospect of another days fishing tomorrow!
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matkat
"he is the democratically elected leader of Scotland right now"
Maybe because no one else is stupid enough to do it.
As newt said "His performance in the Royal Box at Wimbledon says it all!! No manners, no style and no understanding of the people!"
Would I want him representing Scotland on the world stage ?
Sorry, no, he comes across as an egotistical bafoon.
Independant Scotland ?
It won't be much different to now except you won't have a teat to suck.
One last thing
It's all well and good when things are going well - see Ireland
- but when the shyte hits the fan as in a GFC and it all comes
crashing down, that is when it will cost Scotland.
When the oil runs out, when the Navy stops inputting into
the economy.
"he is the democratically elected leader of Scotland right now"
Maybe because no one else is stupid enough to do it.
As newt said "His performance in the Royal Box at Wimbledon says it all!! No manners, no style and no understanding of the people!"
Would I want him representing Scotland on the world stage ?
Sorry, no, he comes across as an egotistical bafoon.
Independant Scotland ?
It won't be much different to now except you won't have a teat to suck.
One last thing
It's all well and good when things are going well - see Ireland
- but when the shyte hits the fan as in a GFC and it all comes
crashing down, that is when it will cost Scotland.
When the oil runs out, when the Navy stops inputting into
the economy.
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Courntney, you just love this debate old chap! The document does raise some interesting points that need answered and although I've only skimmed through it, I intend to give it full attention.
Regarding Salmond, I too saw Panorama and thought that it was Trump that came over as the bully. Should we allow one man to dictate our energy policy or indeed any of our political plans? The last thing we want is another Bliar bending over and taking it from someone from across the pond.
500N, if your implication is that Scotland is milking England then surely you must also identify that the UK is kissing the arse that farts dollar bills!
Edited for spelling! Damn fone!
Regarding Salmond, I too saw Panorama and thought that it was Trump that came over as the bully. Should we allow one man to dictate our energy policy or indeed any of our political plans? The last thing we want is another Bliar bending over and taking it from someone from across the pond.
500N, if your implication is that Scotland is milking England then surely you must also identify that the UK is kissing the arse that farts dollar bills!
Edited for spelling! Damn fone!
Last edited by OutlawPete; 10th Jul 2013 at 07:04.
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Kluseau the first part of your post I totally agree with the second I do not the SNP is a democratically elected government in this country with a mandate to govern it disappoints me when I hear people criticising Salmon for what is perceived as his personal agenda because being democratically elected by the Scottish people then it follows that he has the people support for his policies.
But the point is that the SNP have no mandate in respect of any defence policy. Defence is a matter reserved to the UK Government (at present), so it did not feature especially significantly as an issue in the last Scottish parliamentary elections.
It has only become a real issue because of the possibility of independence. Coming from a standing start the SNP have struggled with defence, as the document this thread is about makes clear. That seems pretty inevitable in the circumstances, and is why I think the document might actually help. But as I said in my last post, the UK government have also fouled up their defence policy over the same period, and they don't have the excuse of any lack of background, experience or so-called expert advice on the subject.
Turning to the question of which way the vote will go, the main forces in favour of independence are the extent to which Scots truly want to define their own destiny (or not); plus the increasingly strong push to disengage from the most divisive, destructive and inept Whitehall government in a generation; ably supported by moronic scare stories generated by the "no" camp over things like mobile phones (more expensive in an independent Scotland, allegedly) and the Royal Mail (now haven't they been looked after well by the current UK government?) Will these factors be enough to bring about an independent Scotland? I don't know, and neither does anyone else. But it will be interesting finding out...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
If we are such a burdens then why not cast us adrift to fend for ourselves we seem not to be scared but our 'benefactors' in the south seem very much wanting to keep us!
Official: More English than Scots want independence for Scotland
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Shetland Islanders view;
The report by Capital Economics is being raised in the Scottish Parliament by Shetland’s MSP during a debate over the future of the oil and gas industry on Wednesday.
Scottish energy minister Fergus Ewing said the government’s focus was on maximising recovery of oil and gas from the seabed around the country.
He pointed out that UK recovery rates lag behind those of Norway and increasing them by a mere one per cent would boost tax revenues by Ł22 billion.
However London-based UK economist Martin Beck, of Capital Economics, believes that the long term future of oil revenues is less rosy and ultimately Scotland could become a fiscal drain on the remaining UK if independence goes ahead.
In his report 'What would Scottish independence mean for the remaining UK', Beck also highlighted the Shetland factor, pointing out that “a significant proportion of Scottish oil actually lies in waters surrounding the Shetland Islands”.
He says this fact puts Shetland in a strong position in the event of independence negotiations between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
“Secession by Scotland could encourage similar aspirations among Shetland Islanders, perhaps resulting in a situation analogous to that between Denmark and the Faroe Islands, where the latter, while being part of the Kingdom of Denmark, has a high degree of self- government,” he writes.
“Or Shetland could conceivably choose to remain as part of the UK, with implications for the balance of gain and loss to (the remaining) UK from Scotland’s departure from the Union.”
Shetland MSP Tavish Scott Ahead of Wednesday’s debate, Shetland MSP Tavish Scott said he had always believed Shetland had a place at the negotiating table over Scotland’s oil.
“If this debate is about geography then the talks should be held in Lerwick,” he said.
“Capital Economics are stating the obvious truth - Shetland is in the middle of the North Sea and west of Shetland oil fields and therefore has a geographical right to those fields.
"Winnie Ewing first claimed it was Scotland's oil. She never had much luck with that argument in Shetland even when she was the MEP for the Highlands and Islands.
Scottish energy minister Fergus Ewing said the government’s focus was on maximising recovery of oil and gas from the seabed around the country.
He pointed out that UK recovery rates lag behind those of Norway and increasing them by a mere one per cent would boost tax revenues by Ł22 billion.
However London-based UK economist Martin Beck, of Capital Economics, believes that the long term future of oil revenues is less rosy and ultimately Scotland could become a fiscal drain on the remaining UK if independence goes ahead.
In his report 'What would Scottish independence mean for the remaining UK', Beck also highlighted the Shetland factor, pointing out that “a significant proportion of Scottish oil actually lies in waters surrounding the Shetland Islands”.
He says this fact puts Shetland in a strong position in the event of independence negotiations between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
“Secession by Scotland could encourage similar aspirations among Shetland Islanders, perhaps resulting in a situation analogous to that between Denmark and the Faroe Islands, where the latter, while being part of the Kingdom of Denmark, has a high degree of self- government,” he writes.
“Or Shetland could conceivably choose to remain as part of the UK, with implications for the balance of gain and loss to (the remaining) UK from Scotland’s departure from the Union.”
Shetland MSP Tavish Scott Ahead of Wednesday’s debate, Shetland MSP Tavish Scott said he had always believed Shetland had a place at the negotiating table over Scotland’s oil.
“If this debate is about geography then the talks should be held in Lerwick,” he said.
“Capital Economics are stating the obvious truth - Shetland is in the middle of the North Sea and west of Shetland oil fields and therefore has a geographical right to those fields.
"Winnie Ewing first claimed it was Scotland's oil. She never had much luck with that argument in Shetland even when she was the MEP for the Highlands and Islands.
Funny how devolutionists always want devolution down to their level but never any lower.
Shetland choosing to belong to Norway (again) would make the maiden voyage of the new ship 'Scotland' somewhat akin to that of the Titanic.
Of course, the Dukes of Buccleuch and Atholl between them own a bigger area than the Shetlands.
.
Shetland choosing to belong to Norway (again) would make the maiden voyage of the new ship 'Scotland' somewhat akin to that of the Titanic.
Of course, the Dukes of Buccleuch and Atholl between them own a bigger area than the Shetlands.
.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 10th Jul 2013 at 12:17.
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I must admit I have reservations as to just how far £2.5B (if that is what the SNP plan to spend) will go in terms of defence funding. That said, the UK is fading fast on an international stage so what will we be left with as a UK soon anyway.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/5005631/UK-falls-down-defence-spending-league-table.html
Someone else said it before, should independence happen, it will be because Cameron and co lost through a series of blunders. That and the fact that (Salmond aside) the SNP are doing a reasonable job of running things.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/5005631/UK-falls-down-defence-spending-league-table.html
Someone else said it before, should independence happen, it will be because Cameron and co lost through a series of blunders. That and the fact that (Salmond aside) the SNP are doing a reasonable job of running things.
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Quite an impressive performance by George Grant, in front of the HOC.
Comprehensive command of his subject matter, calm and measured delivery, no deviation from his own "line to take" and no adverse reaction to aggressive questions.
Some of our Airships could learn from him!
Rgds SOS
Comprehensive command of his subject matter, calm and measured delivery, no deviation from his own "line to take" and no adverse reaction to aggressive questions.
Some of our Airships could learn from him!
Rgds SOS
The only irritating thing with issues like this is that they muddy the waters over the independence question.
The question isn't "would you like the SNP, in its current form, to run an independent Scotland?" It's "should Scotland be an independent nation?"
Following any successful "yes" vote, it would then be up to existing and yet-to-form political parties to put together manifestos on how they'd run an independent Scotland; and that's when they'll all have to answer the hard questions on the Royal Mail, mobile phones, defence, health spending, education, etc.
Ripping apart the SNP's attitude to or plans for defence doesn't help; because even if residents vote to make Scotland independent, it's far from assured that they'll end up as the governing party.
The optimists look at Denmark, Norway and Belgium as examples of an off-the-shelf military spend for an independent Scotland, the pessimists look at Ireland or Iceland and very limited forces. Thing is, when people are mulling over the question of whether or not the country should be independent, how many fast jets Scotland runs and how often she participates in UN-led ops, or even if she becomes a NATO member are pretty far down the list of considerations.
You don't have to look far for extremely negative views of this and the previous Labour governments. A lot of intelligent people, including those of us in the armed forces, are interested in the potential of an independent Scotland, even if it means it's unlikely to attend a RED FLAG or have its own aircraft carriers!
The question isn't "would you like the SNP, in its current form, to run an independent Scotland?" It's "should Scotland be an independent nation?"
Following any successful "yes" vote, it would then be up to existing and yet-to-form political parties to put together manifestos on how they'd run an independent Scotland; and that's when they'll all have to answer the hard questions on the Royal Mail, mobile phones, defence, health spending, education, etc.
Ripping apart the SNP's attitude to or plans for defence doesn't help; because even if residents vote to make Scotland independent, it's far from assured that they'll end up as the governing party.
The optimists look at Denmark, Norway and Belgium as examples of an off-the-shelf military spend for an independent Scotland, the pessimists look at Ireland or Iceland and very limited forces. Thing is, when people are mulling over the question of whether or not the country should be independent, how many fast jets Scotland runs and how often she participates in UN-led ops, or even if she becomes a NATO member are pretty far down the list of considerations.
You don't have to look far for extremely negative views of this and the previous Labour governments. A lot of intelligent people, including those of us in the armed forces, are interested in the potential of an independent Scotland, even if it means it's unlikely to attend a RED FLAG or have its own aircraft carriers!
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Shetland choosing to belong to Norway (again) would make the maiden voyage of the new ship 'Scotland' somewhat akin to that of the Titanic.
). When the pre-Viking tenure of the Picts is included, Scotland already has Norway's temporary stewardship beat. So tell me again that 'other' version of history? (The Danes evidently ravaged the Isle of Wight in 871, perhaps the present occupants of that island might therefore like to revert to Danish rule).As for flag waving....some people need to get a life...
And as for defence? (in chronological order)
Fresh defence 'scare' as yet another 'think tank' blasts independence
Scotland would be as safe with its own Defence Force
'The Scotland Institute' a Scare-Story Howitzer
Response to most common arguments against Scotland Institute’s Defence Report
Hundreds lose jobs as MoD redundancies hit Scottish communities
Originally Posted by wikipedia
The Scotland Institute is a think tank operating in Scotland which describes itself as "progressive and independent". It was founded by Azeem Ibrahim, a "hedge fund millionaire", and formally launched in June 2013 by Alistair Darling, former Chancellor of the Exchequer, shortly after he was confirmed as the leader of the Better Together campaign against Scottish independence. Its first major report is called Defence and Security in an Independent Scotland, which considers the impact on defence in Scotland in the event of a Yes vote in the Scottish independence referendum, 2014.
Alistair Darling: "I believe we can cement Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom once and for all"
Jackson Carlaw: "If you are a supporter of any political Party, or none and wish to campaign to renew the most successful political and economic union in history then do sign up to Better Together"
Jo Swinson: "I look forward to making the case for more powers for a Scotland which works as part of a United Kingdom. I hope as many people as possible across the nation take the opportunity to show their support for the Better Together campaign."
Dr Azeem Ibrahim: "in the context of calls for independence from people suffering under repressive dictatorships around the world, it is hard to see the SNP's demands as anything but sentimental, and even frivolous."
The Scotland Institute, "progressive and independent" .... my @R$€.....
rab-k my point was about what the people of Shetland want, not about which bigger bunch of people most want Shetland.
Taking it to the extreme, can one person declare UDI on their own small patch of Earth? and if not, why not? Where does the line get drawn?
Taking it to the extreme, can one person declare UDI on their own small patch of Earth? and if not, why not? Where does the line get drawn?
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Re the referendum, why is Cameron delaying the EU in/out until 2017? If Scotland vote to stay in the UK in 2014, that would be a pretty solid bloc voting for "in", which is the way he wants it to go. Lots of crinkly faces if the 2017 goes "out". We can but hope.
Thread Starter
OutlawPete,
Yes, Mate. Sorry, but I do find it interesting. I think mainly because decades of defending the Northern Flank makes wonder what it wooud be like to have a potential hole there in our nation's defenses. Also the other effects that could fall out of an "out" vote on the rump of the UK. But mainly, it's just interesting to try to peek through the politics to see what's really going on.
Yes, Mate. Sorry, but I do find it interesting. I think mainly because decades of defending the Northern Flank makes wonder what it wooud be like to have a potential hole there in our nation's defenses. Also the other effects that could fall out of an "out" vote on the rump of the UK. But mainly, it's just interesting to try to peek through the politics to see what's really going on.
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rab-k my point was about what the people of Shetland want
Islanders say they want to remain Scottish
Press & Journal, 17/04/2013
The vast majority of people in Shetland and Orkney believe the northern isles should remain part of Scotland.
An exclusive poll commissioned by the Press and Journal showed that 82% thought the current arrangements should be maintained.
A total of 8% of respondents said they thought the northern isles should break away from Scotland and 10% said they did not know.
As for the other article...
SNP slams 'partial, partisan and inaccurate' defence report by right-wing think tank
And today, yet another prime example of the colonial mindset ever present within Whitehall...
Faslane Trident base could be in UK after Scottish independence
Our very own MacGuantanamo, you couldn't make it up...
Will these guys be posted inside the fence I wonder...
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rab
It makes sense.
But in the long run, I am sure the UK could easily build
something further along the coast or even well down south.
The problem is of course requiring two bases close to each other
but separated.
It makes sense.
But in the long run, I am sure the UK could easily build
something further along the coast or even well down south.
The problem is of course requiring two bases close to each other
but separated.
Last edited by 500N; 11th Jul 2013 at 07:09.
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Interesting ...
More here ...
BBC News
How about extending the sovereign UK territory argument to our Air Bases or do we then encounter problems with Airspace considerations ?
Ministry of Defence officials are exploring the idea of retaining a Scottish naval base as sovereign UK territory if there is a yes vote in next year's independence referendum.
An MoD spokesman said it was confident Scotland would remain part of the UK and that the scale and cost of relocating the base in the event of a yes vote would be "enormous".
An MoD spokesman said it was confident Scotland would remain part of the UK and that the scale and cost of relocating the base in the event of a yes vote would be "enormous".
More here ...
BBC News
How about extending the sovereign UK territory argument to our Air Bases or do we then encounter problems with Airspace considerations ?
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I always remember the Sub coming back from the Falklands
and sailing into port with the Jolly Roger flag. Caused a bit
of a stir but had the full support of the country !
They had a good program on the US Subs the other day,
plenty of filming inside it while at sea and what goes on.
More detailed than I thought it would be including filming
all the exercises.
and sailing into port with the Jolly Roger flag. Caused a bit
of a stir but had the full support of the country !
They had a good program on the US Subs the other day,
plenty of filming inside it while at sea and what goes on.
More detailed than I thought it would be including filming
all the exercises.
Last edited by 500N; 11th Jul 2013 at 07:14.
