Progression pay hit
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I for one am glad the Civil Service annual pay rises have been removed, the rest of the Country do not get them and indeed a lot of people haven't had one for years, some even taking pay drops to ensure redundancies do not happen in their workplaces.
The average Civil Service work for a lot less than their service equivalent and for a lot less pension.
Devil will be in the detail.
There is some logic in short incremental scales in my opinion.
Come in at the bottom, get trained, get ticks in box, get better, get a rise.
In my old mob, the Met Office of MoD there was not a lot you could do with a new assistant, certainly not send to an airfield as a solo unsupervised observer. But observing was the basic grade, so, as I said, a short scale made [and makes] sense. This predated performance pay, which was not necessary, in that, if the chain thought you could cut the mustard they sent you observing and if not they could say goodbye as long as the decision was early.
Again, on promotion there are jobs that cannot be done in the first year, or they would not be worth doing.
What is nonsense is a long scale ....... unless a worker is promoted after say five years they are both fully trained and not going anywhere.
It will be interesting to see where on an existing scale say 1,2,3,4,5 they peg the new pay amount. They cannot get away with 1. and nobody believes they will offer 5 !
There is some logic in short incremental scales in my opinion.
Come in at the bottom, get trained, get ticks in box, get better, get a rise.
In my old mob, the Met Office of MoD there was not a lot you could do with a new assistant, certainly not send to an airfield as a solo unsupervised observer. But observing was the basic grade, so, as I said, a short scale made [and makes] sense. This predated performance pay, which was not necessary, in that, if the chain thought you could cut the mustard they sent you observing and if not they could say goodbye as long as the decision was early.
Again, on promotion there are jobs that cannot be done in the first year, or they would not be worth doing.
What is nonsense is a long scale ....... unless a worker is promoted after say five years they are both fully trained and not going anywhere.
It will be interesting to see where on an existing scale say 1,2,3,4,5 they peg the new pay amount. They cannot get away with 1. and nobody believes they will offer 5 !
I also know someone who hasn't had a pay rise for years (not even a rise in line with inflation) and actually her pay has decreased (earning less each year) as her pension contributions have been increased. She is in fact one of those dreadful Civil Servants, but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good rumour and bigotry.
Private sector seems quite happy to rush ahead in boom times but soon forgets all about that when times are bad...
What is nonsense is a long scale ....... unless a worker is promoted after say five years they are both fully trained and not going anywhere.
I'm on level 32 of my pay scale with a little bit more to go.
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We need to be smarter on our increment system and start paying for experience and qualifications instead of on time basis.
Why is a Flt Lt OCU instructor paid the same as a Flt Lt Test Pilot and a Flt Lt front line copilot? There is no financial incentive for bettering oneself without getting promoted. I know there is PA spine, but by the time that kicks in highly qualified guys will have been marching time on Flt Lt 9 for a good 6 or 7 years.
In my opinion either PA spine should commence much earlier or some thought should be given to a qualification based pay structure to give an incentive to people that aspire for flying excellence and not that extra stripe.
I love the Air Force, always have, but what the bean counters have missed is that its gone from being a way of life to being a job. Every little chip at the pay/rates/standards/working times etc etc means that Joe Bloggs feels more and more devalued and the extra hours that went in for love of the job, in the knowledge that he is being looked after, are a thing of the past.
The RAF has got my commitment having seen the better days, but it needs to start considering how they can keep the new generation of experience now.
Why is a Flt Lt OCU instructor paid the same as a Flt Lt Test Pilot and a Flt Lt front line copilot? There is no financial incentive for bettering oneself without getting promoted. I know there is PA spine, but by the time that kicks in highly qualified guys will have been marching time on Flt Lt 9 for a good 6 or 7 years.
In my opinion either PA spine should commence much earlier or some thought should be given to a qualification based pay structure to give an incentive to people that aspire for flying excellence and not that extra stripe.
I love the Air Force, always have, but what the bean counters have missed is that its gone from being a way of life to being a job. Every little chip at the pay/rates/standards/working times etc etc means that Joe Bloggs feels more and more devalued and the extra hours that went in for love of the job, in the knowledge that he is being looked after, are a thing of the past.
The RAF has got my commitment having seen the better days, but it needs to start considering how they can keep the new generation of experience now.
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The HM treasury documentation saying:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...3-complete.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...013_14.pdf.pdf
HM Treasury suggested to depts last year that they should buy out contractual pay progression, however HM Treasury didn't approve any cases to buy it out.
I left the RAF in 2008 and ended up in the Civil Service, it was clear to me the only way to get a pay rise was to get promoted and to move Depts to maximise the differences between dept pay scales (Cabinet Office pay is awful(MOD B1 equiv Ł44K pa(min)), MOD (B1 Ł56.7K pa (Min))is OK, HMRC (MOD B1 Equiv Ł63K pa (Min) is very good, OFSTED (MOD B1 Equiv Ł69K pa (Min)) is great. Result 35% pay increase in less than 5 years.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...3-complete.pdf
'Departments will be putting in place plans to end automatic time-served
progression pay in the civil service by 2015-16. In addition, substantial reforms to progression
pay will be taken forward or are already underway for teachers, the health service, prisons and
the police – ensuring that public sector workers do not receive pay increases purely as a result of
time in post.'
is out of kilter with :pay will be taken forward or are already underway for teachers, the health service, prisons and
the police – ensuring that public sector workers do not receive pay increases purely as a result of
time in post.'
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...013_14.pdf.pdf
'Progression pay
2.3 Increases arising from contractual progression pay increments will continue to be paid where such increments are a legal entitlement. Departments are encouraged to include contractual progression increments to which there is a legal entitlement as part of the one per cent award.
Reform of progression pay arrangements
2.4 Departments have the opportunity to put forward plans to remove automatic time-served progression pay. Treasury will consider proposals for flexibility in relation to the one per cent (see paragraph 2.2) if they are linked to substantive plans to do so. To qualify for consideration, departments must provide a robust and fully costed business case for their proposals that offers clear value for money for the taxpayer and includes the removal of legally binding progression arrangements. In order to assist Treasury’s assessment of their business case, departments may wish to refer to the additional guidance set out in Annex E when drawing up proposals.
2.3 Increases arising from contractual progression pay increments will continue to be paid where such increments are a legal entitlement. Departments are encouraged to include contractual progression increments to which there is a legal entitlement as part of the one per cent award.
Reform of progression pay arrangements
2.4 Departments have the opportunity to put forward plans to remove automatic time-served progression pay. Treasury will consider proposals for flexibility in relation to the one per cent (see paragraph 2.2) if they are linked to substantive plans to do so. To qualify for consideration, departments must provide a robust and fully costed business case for their proposals that offers clear value for money for the taxpayer and includes the removal of legally binding progression arrangements. In order to assist Treasury’s assessment of their business case, departments may wish to refer to the additional guidance set out in Annex E when drawing up proposals.
2.5 Any proposal should be included with other information provided to the Treasury as part of the 2015-16 Spending Round. The supporting business case should if possible be provided to the Cabinet Office at the same time and in any case by 6 May 2013 at the latest. Any well-developed case that would breach the one per cent policy should also be referred to the Treasury. '
as well as being breach of contract when that pay progression is written into the contract of employment. However very few central government depts have contractual pay progression. HM Treasury suggested to depts last year that they should buy out contractual pay progression, however HM Treasury didn't approve any cases to buy it out.
I left the RAF in 2008 and ended up in the Civil Service, it was clear to me the only way to get a pay rise was to get promoted and to move Depts to maximise the differences between dept pay scales (Cabinet Office pay is awful(MOD B1 equiv Ł44K pa(min)), MOD (B1 Ł56.7K pa (Min))is OK, HMRC (MOD B1 Equiv Ł63K pa (Min) is very good, OFSTED (MOD B1 Equiv Ł69K pa (Min)) is great. Result 35% pay increase in less than 5 years.
Tricky subject methinks. I took the trouble to qualify as an A1 instructor and had the benefit of an annual increment practically every year of my 30 years in the Service and yet managed to get to only half the pay of my contemporary who is a TRE for a civilian airline! Don't get me wrong, money is not why I joined and I wouldn't swap seats with him for all the tea in China but an organisation that hopes to retain high calibre individuals is going to have to find a way of rewarding them. I like the idea of instructor pay....obviously (!) but I think it should be extended to all sorts of qualifications (CR, IRE, Auth etc).
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
kintyred, let's detach your idea of additional pay for CR, IRE, Auth etc from a purely aircrew centric approach.
Whilst I achieved various command categories, ratings, leader etc I also did weapons, int, security, admin, audit, contract and so on. Let us suppose that each of these qualified for additional cash rewards. Where is the money to come from?
That is a complete no brainer. It would come from exactly the same size pay pot as your pay comes from now. Assuming you got all the appropriate ticks then you would earn little more than you earn now, but on the way you would earn considerably less.
As a first tour, no-nothing, hot-shot you would understandably be paid half what a similarly newly-qualified fg off/flt lt earns now. Learn from PAYD.
I leave you to work out the rest.
Whilst I achieved various command categories, ratings, leader etc I also did weapons, int, security, admin, audit, contract and so on. Let us suppose that each of these qualified for additional cash rewards. Where is the money to come from?
That is a complete no brainer. It would come from exactly the same size pay pot as your pay comes from now. Assuming you got all the appropriate ticks then you would earn little more than you earn now, but on the way you would earn considerably less.
As a first tour, no-nothing, hot-shot you would understandably be paid half what a similarly newly-qualified fg off/flt lt earns now. Learn from PAYD.
I leave you to work out the rest.
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Cut air ranks so they're in proportion to the current size and structure.
Redistribute pay to provide "expertise" increments.
Don't get me wrong - I believe this should be the model for all trades. I only talk aircrew because that's what I know.
We've got to stop focussing on this antiquated structure of promotion and pay if we want an Air Force for the future.
Redistribute pay to provide "expertise" increments.
Don't get me wrong - I believe this should be the model for all trades. I only talk aircrew because that's what I know.
We've got to stop focussing on this antiquated structure of promotion and pay if we want an Air Force for the future.
Last edited by theboywide; 27th Jun 2013 at 21:52.
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Why on earth should anyone get payrise for doing the same job year on year, is complete crap. If you can pass further exams etc or rise to a more senior job then fine. But noway just for time in job. Are you saying we should pay a dustbin man more just because hes been doing the job for 30 years.
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Biting...I have to take issue with the dustbin person example.
You cannot just mark time as an Officer. Once you've finished flying training, got your C of C / CR and done a front line tour or few you are continuously getting better and more valuable to the Service. Realistically a lot of people then become instructors or Flt Cdrs (which they are selected for in a variety of ways) etc where they have more responsibility, are trained to an even higher standard and without any form of pay progression would be on the same money as a Lt / Flt Lt who has just been promoted but is still holding for one of their flying courses.
You cannot just mark time as an Officer. Once you've finished flying training, got your C of C / CR and done a front line tour or few you are continuously getting better and more valuable to the Service. Realistically a lot of people then become instructors or Flt Cdrs (which they are selected for in a variety of ways) etc where they have more responsibility, are trained to an even higher standard and without any form of pay progression would be on the same money as a Lt / Flt Lt who has just been promoted but is still holding for one of their flying courses.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Would you freeze your holding officer's pay? Maybe, but luck of the draw.
Currently there is an element of lottery anyway. SiL was 5th on the list for wg cdr and got picked up - right place, right time, and presumably right skill sets. Having got picked up, in the right job, is now polishing his CV!
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Might one just point out, in response to the poor Flt Lt test pilot et al who are all paid the same..... it is not all about pay.
Pilots in the RAF, along with 'flying pay' are paid well. Don't be greedy, if it is not enough, ask an 'erk to show you how to use JPA and Eject one self !!
Pilots in the RAF, along with 'flying pay' are paid well. Don't be greedy, if it is not enough, ask an 'erk to show you how to use JPA and Eject one self !!
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I also know someone who hasn't had a pay rise for years (not even a rise in line with inflation) and actually her pay has decreased (earning less each year) as her pension contributions have been increased. She is in fact one of those dreadful Civil Servants, but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good rumour and bigotry.
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To be honest I am so cheesed off with reading some of the rubbish here about Civil Servants that if I had the chance I would introduce a scheme where when a Blue Suiter was posted to a Civil Service establishment they would get the exact same terms and conditions as the equivalent rank in the Civil Service; pay, pension, allowances, holidays, rented accommodation rights, everything! When they return to front line service (or do a temporary detachment back to Front Line duties) then their terms and conditions would be re-established, without reimbursement of any loss incurred during the time spent in the role and if they have made more, then obviously they would not have to pay that back either. Even on the long term affects that it may have on the pension!
I have known many Blue Suiters (Officers and SNCOs) who have spent years in these establishments, taking every advantage of the system, cushy 0830-1630 times swanning off down the Gym every day for an hour and a half, strolling across to McDonalds for a mid morning coffee and spending a great deal of time working out what allowances they can weedle out of the system. Yes, I agree that many do not want to be there and they make every effort to get posted out, but there are a significant number that know that they are on a good screw.
Sorry, but I am sick of reading some of the drivel printed here, that in affect is about my wife, her employment and her terms and conditions. If some of you serving members were treated half as badly as the “lower and middle ranks” of the civil service, you would have PVRed years ago.
Rant over
I have known many Blue Suiters (Officers and SNCOs) who have spent years in these establishments, taking every advantage of the system, cushy 0830-1630 times swanning off down the Gym every day for an hour and a half, strolling across to McDonalds for a mid morning coffee and spending a great deal of time working out what allowances they can weedle out of the system. Yes, I agree that many do not want to be there and they make every effort to get posted out, but there are a significant number that know that they are on a good screw.
Sorry, but I am sick of reading some of the drivel printed here, that in affect is about my wife, her employment and her terms and conditions. If some of you serving members were treated half as badly as the “lower and middle ranks” of the civil service, you would have PVRed years ago.
Rant over
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First off to those that posted about knowing people in the Civil service that do not get annual pay rises.
My disagreement was with those that get it, not those that do not, so it's not really relevant, although some do not get one, a lot do and that is what I agree with being stopped to bring it inline with the rest of the workforce..
As for the is it right for a Flt Lt OCU pilot, Test Pilot, and Front Line Pilot all being on the same rate, they want to look at the Civilian equivalent..
As an example Engineering wise
If you are working shifts you get shift pay, not that it counts to service folks.
You then get pay for licences held ie say Airframe, Engines, avionics, and certification
You then get type pay say 737... 747... 757 an increment for each type
However, I've seen cases at one airline that were actually still paying type pay on an aircraft type they no longer had..
Perhaps something along that line would work, an increment based on service qualifications, and bin the time served ones? But remember these can go down as well as up.
My disagreement was with those that get it, not those that do not, so it's not really relevant, although some do not get one, a lot do and that is what I agree with being stopped to bring it inline with the rest of the workforce..
As for the is it right for a Flt Lt OCU pilot, Test Pilot, and Front Line Pilot all being on the same rate, they want to look at the Civilian equivalent..
As an example Engineering wise
If you are working shifts you get shift pay, not that it counts to service folks.
You then get pay for licences held ie say Airframe, Engines, avionics, and certification
You then get type pay say 737... 747... 757 an increment for each type
However, I've seen cases at one airline that were actually still paying type pay on an aircraft type they no longer had..
Perhaps something along that line would work, an increment based on service qualifications, and bin the time served ones? But remember these can go down as well as up.
Last edited by NutLoose; 28th Jun 2013 at 22:34.
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