Military to Civilian hours conversion.

[Spiro]

Hi All,

Anyone know the reference material for converting Mil to Civ hours. Used to be LASORS IIRC but unsure if things changed under EASA.

Thanks in advance

[BEagle]

Flight time towards what is laughingly termed 'military accreditation', but is in fact a total insult for military skills and experience, is based on flight time as logged in military flying logbooks.

Flight time towards civil licences not based upon military accreditation used to be defined in LASORS, but is no longer so defined in CAP 804. The best thing you can do is to ensure that you keep a civil logbook in parallel with your military logbook, with flight time in the civil logbook recorded in accordance with FCL.050. However, given that the pair of numpties at 22Gp who destroyed military accreditation so comprehensively have clouded the issue with, for example, UAS PU/T time not being allowable towards a PPL, the whole issue is by no means certain.

Sorry. There was once a sound, pragmatic system for military accreditation - but the RAF destroyed it. Which is utterly unforgiveable.

[Marly Lite]

Beagle,

The RAF didn't destroy military accreditation, EASA did.

[BEagle]

Not so.



.

[4Greens]

In my youth taxi time was an issue. Counts in civil but not in military. 5 Minutes was allowed on aircraft carriers!

[Miles Magister]

Guys,

LASORs was never legislation but only a cross reference book. The military to civil hours conversion was only ever a recomendation based on a simple agreement between a Barnwood staff officer and FCL to help out guys.

The best thing to do is re-write your log book in a civil book adding taxy time. This is in accordance with the ANO and perfectly accepetable. I did many years ago and it took a couple of days as I had nearly 2 RAF log books at the time but was the best and legally compliant solution.

MM

[Arty Fufkin]

Or use the spare column in your RAF logbook to record taxi time as it says for civilian contractors to do. Not sure about the legality of doing that retrospectively though.

I assumed that part of the withdrawal of military dispensations with regard to licensing was the realisation that today's (multi-engine)RAF pilot is the product of a pared-to-the-bone training system. Furthermore the previous assumption that RAF pilots benefit from a rich, varied and broad spectrum of flying experience on line is a bit of a porky these days as well.

Least that's what I heared!

[Runaway Gun]

So, what was the old method then? Add 6 mins per sortie or something equally as simple?

[China Flyer]

Where I ended up flying, my international airline averages 20 mins per "sortie", ie 10 mins to taxy out and 10 to taxy in.

The domestics use 5 mins out and another 5 in, so I guess you could argue that adding 10 mins (or 0.2) would be reasonable.

[Pontius Navigator]

TIC,

What about military flights that do not terminate at an airfield and do not have a taxy time? Does the flight time end when you pull the black and yellow, when the aircraft comes to a sudden stop, or when Mr Irvin's finest collapses gracefully?

Did one flight, spent a good 30-40 minutes picnicking amongst the buttercups, listening to the bees buzzing in a pleasantly warm summer meadow before re-boarding our Shacklebomber. The captain counted all the time between take-off and return to base as flight hours. Had he done a mil-civ conversion that would have really been extracting the Michael.

[Roland Pulfrew]

You could try the PPRuNE advanced search function for 'civilian accreditation' which will bring up a number of old topics. Not sure how or what may have chnaged in the intervening years but the basics are in there.

Here's a couple of links to start of with:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...after-mob.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...llowances.html

[gr4techie]

Originally Posted by fourgreens

4Greens In my youth taxi time was an issue. Counts in civil but not in military. 5 Minutes was allowed on aircraft carriers!

5 minutes? Must have been a really long aircraft carrier.

[Runaway Gun]

But the Carrier was doing 30kts!

[GipsyMagpie]

Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew

Here's a couple of links to start of with:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...after-mob.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...llowances.html

I wouldn't bother. Anything prior to Aug 12 is the old scheme. The new rules in Part O of CAP 804 is the only allowance you are going to get. Apparently there will be some improvement in a future amendment. People are working hard in 22 Gp to improve the current situation, but for now...you can get a nice aerobatic rating based on your UAS/EFT flying.

[BEagle]

UAS/EFT flying.

Yes, when working with the industry / CAA Aerobatic Rating Working Group, that was one credit I managed to secure for the military, although we could only give automatic credit based on EFT, not UAS flying. That's another unfortunate corollary of the dumbing-down of UAS flying training. We couldn't include Army training either, having been told that this does not include aerobatic flight training.

The actual wording for Aerobatic Rating credits may be found in CAP 804 Part I Section 4 part P pp32-33, which includes:

(c) Pilots who have completed aerobatic training with the United Kingdom military forces (other than the British Army) shall submit evidence
of having completed satisfactorily, either:
(i)) the UK RAF Elementary Flying Training course; or
(ii)) the UK RN Elementary Flying Training course; or
(iii)) a UK military Basic Fast Jet Flying Training course;

Originally 22Gp weren't prepared to vouch for EFT courses, until it was pointed out to them that flight instruction for the Aerobatic Rating includes not just aerobatics, but also 'confidence manoeuvres' such as max rate turns, advanced stalling and spinning - then they agreed. But it just went to show that trying to get 22Gp to support credit for its own people was like pulling teeth at times....

Another recent credit I've persuaded them to accept was for the FRTOL ('R/T licence') practical test, which they seemed to have forgotten about in the original Part O. The new credit is in CAP 804 Part I Section 6 part A p3:

Military Pilots qualified as an EFTG, SERP or QMP in Section 4, Part O shall be credited the RTF Practical Test.

Don't forget that more generous credit for military training, skills and experience reamains available for the NPPL. So, until Apr 2015, the easiest way to an EASA licence is to obtain an NPPL(SSEA), then convert it to a Part-FCL LAPL(A) as described in CAP 804 Part I Section 4 part P pp11-12. Once you're 'in' the EASA system, conversion to higher level licences is exactly the same as it is for any other EASA pilot licence holder.

[Thomas coupling]

It's sad when you have to consider how much taxi time is included in your total hours. After several thousand hours - who cares. Civvies don't. Is it a mil thing?

[Roland Pulfrew]

After several thousand hours - who cares. Civvies don't. Is it a mil thing?

Thomas, it might be a "mil thing", but only because we record flying hours differently to the civil world - we only record actual flying time. Whilst it might be irrelevant after several thousand hours (and with my mil flying time you are right, I don't really care) for those with fewer hours it can make the difference between qualifying for a particular licence, or not. So not actually that "sad"

[Megawart]

Doesn't the 'military covenant' infer that nobody who has chosen a life of military service for their country be disadvantaged compared with those who have served only themselves and their bank balance?

Clearly choosing a career in military aviation leaves you severely disadvantaged with regards to licensing when compared with civilian pilots. If I'd joined as what currently passes as a 'chef' or MT driver, at least I'd leave with some useful qualifications...

If our hard won military skills are worthless in the civilian world, then how on earth can we be considered to be qualified to fly in controlled airspace mixing it with general air traffic?

If memory serves me right, ex Air Force pilot, journalist and author Frederick Forsyth was consulted in drafting the covenant, I'm sure he'd be appalled by this current state of affairs.

[BEagle]

Whereas the previous, high quality military accreditation system properly recognised the knowledge, experience and skills of military pilots - and was a useful retention incentive, the current nonsense was primarily aimed at giving those booted out under Cameron's cuts some credit.

Ironically, it was an utterance from Bliar which catalysed the previous system. Although JAR-FCL had indicated it was possible, it was a statement in the House - to the effect that military personnel would receive qualifications for their service which would be recognised in civilian life - which allowed the proposal to move forward. I received 2 letters on the topic, one was from a sniffy Wing Commander at Learning Command who wittered about 'staffing processes'; the other was a letter of thanks for my initiative from a 4-star.

History now though; all destroyed by 22Gp...

[Doors Off]

Not completely relevant however, CASA in Oz give strict and unambiguous guidance for Military to Civilian hours conversion. Which is quite good. They allow 0.2 per sortie to make up for lack of taxi time. I do think that it is a very conservative amount but at least they have written it down.

I assume that it would it would take a very long time to go back through my log books counting each sortie. My recommendation to those starting out or that have not been in the system since last century would be as some of the posts above. Keep a parallel logbook logging from start to stop time and hopefully (which I would expect from my time in HM Forces) your boss will understand your future planning and sign off on the logbook.

I still can not fathom how difficult the licensing arrangement is for Military to Civil in the UK. Some dastardly dirty deals being done between mil and government sectors IMHO.