Here it comes: Syria
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Assad's propaganda has been very effective in the West. Makes Goebbels look like an amateur. Presumably Russia and Iran have been helping.
That the Ghouta CW attack was a rebel false flag attempt was one of their ridiculous lies that the gullible in the West believed.
Hopefully this particular mistruth will be nailed today with this Human Rights Watch report: Syria: Government Likely Culprit in Chemical Attack | Human Rights Watch
22 pages of forensic examination.
That the Ghouta CW attack was a rebel false flag attempt was one of their ridiculous lies that the gullible in the West believed.
Hopefully this particular mistruth will be nailed today with this Human Rights Watch report: Syria: Government Likely Culprit in Chemical Attack | Human Rights Watch
22 pages of forensic examination.
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The Syria opposition is not Al Qaeda. This is Assad propaganda.
To start off all the opposition were army deserters and local militias.
The West ignored their plight, so gradually the salafists had more influence. Largely are a result of the West's inaction.
Syria has a secular tradition so there has been considerable backlash against the salafists. Many times this has resulted in fighting FSA Vs salafists and Kurds Vs salafists.
Al Nusra was the main islamic fighting force but even they had a schism with the real fundamentalists leaving to join ISIS.
Including part time fighters and local militias there are probably around 150,000 armed people fighting against Assad. Of these something like 6 to 7 thousand are salafists. A smaller number of these are jihadists. A smaller number of these are Al Qaeda.
Yes, there is no doubt that some have been radicalised by the conflict. But the vast bulk of Syrians are secular and want a secular society. They will not tolerate sharia or a caliphate.
This is the easiest way to visualise the opposition: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTbdKHVCUAEOwG0.jpg:large
To start off all the opposition were army deserters and local militias.
The West ignored their plight, so gradually the salafists had more influence. Largely are a result of the West's inaction.
Syria has a secular tradition so there has been considerable backlash against the salafists. Many times this has resulted in fighting FSA Vs salafists and Kurds Vs salafists.
Al Nusra was the main islamic fighting force but even they had a schism with the real fundamentalists leaving to join ISIS.
Including part time fighters and local militias there are probably around 150,000 armed people fighting against Assad. Of these something like 6 to 7 thousand are salafists. A smaller number of these are jihadists. A smaller number of these are Al Qaeda.
Yes, there is no doubt that some have been radicalised by the conflict. But the vast bulk of Syrians are secular and want a secular society. They will not tolerate sharia or a caliphate.
This is the easiest way to visualise the opposition: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTbdKHVCUAEOwG0.jpg:large
Great. Let's see what happens next.
1. Syria hands over ALL their CW to someone we trust. ""Yep, that's the lot, honest, sa'ib."
2. Someone then orders a CW attack against civilians, but the Syrian Government shout, "I wasn't us, it can't have been us, you took it all away. It must have been the terrorist rebels. Now you must attack them because using CW against civilians is evil - you said so."
3. The Swedes demand that O'Bamagh flies immediately to Oslo to hand his Nobel Peace Price over to that nice Mr Putin.
Yeah, that is a good question. But you have to admit, this new initiative came along just in time - if nothing else to save Mr President from either having to make an embarrassing climb-down or trying to press ahead with action that everyone else (well a lot, anyway) is coming out against.
Thank God for Putin, eh? Words I didn't expect I would be typing.
1. Syria hands over ALL their CW to someone we trust. ""Yep, that's the lot, honest, sa'ib."
2. Someone then orders a CW attack against civilians, but the Syrian Government shout, "I wasn't us, it can't have been us, you took it all away. It must have been the terrorist rebels. Now you must attack them because using CW against civilians is evil - you said so."
3. The Swedes demand that O'Bamagh flies immediately to Oslo to hand his Nobel Peace Price over to that nice Mr Putin.
Originally Posted by SASless
Simple question.....why did the Moron not offer this BEFORE banging the War Drums?
Thank God for Putin, eh? Words I didn't expect I would be typing.
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Kerry opened his mouth and put both feet in it.
Putin, the wily old dog, saw an opportunity and took it.
This is purely a delaying tactic.
There is no way that Assad will allow a strict and invasive enforcement regime. But he will pay lip service for the time it gives him. He will use this time to regroup and to re-equip. Russia has sent 7 landing ships to Syria, they are not carrying baked beans. The war will be prolonged.
Assad has possibly the biggest chemical warfare stocks in the world. Mustard, Sarin and VX. He has built a huge missile force to deliver this into Israel. Perhaps 2,000 ballistic missiles. He built this force up for deterrence, as a counter to Israeli nuclear weapons. And deterrence has worked. It is probably what has kept Turkey away from involvement in the conflict.
Obama has been shown up as being unfit for office. He is just a glib mouth, not a leader. He is now a dead duck president. The remainder of his presidency will see the ascendency of the powers for harm in the world. Russia, Iran, North Korea. USA has lost all credibility in the world. Undone by Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. Despite their enormous military power they have been comprehensively outmanoeuvred by Putin at every turn.
In this disaster UK politicians like Blair and Hague have been complicit.
Putin, the wily old dog, saw an opportunity and took it.
This is purely a delaying tactic.
There is no way that Assad will allow a strict and invasive enforcement regime. But he will pay lip service for the time it gives him. He will use this time to regroup and to re-equip. Russia has sent 7 landing ships to Syria, they are not carrying baked beans. The war will be prolonged.
Assad has possibly the biggest chemical warfare stocks in the world. Mustard, Sarin and VX. He has built a huge missile force to deliver this into Israel. Perhaps 2,000 ballistic missiles. He built this force up for deterrence, as a counter to Israeli nuclear weapons. And deterrence has worked. It is probably what has kept Turkey away from involvement in the conflict.
Obama has been shown up as being unfit for office. He is just a glib mouth, not a leader. He is now a dead duck president. The remainder of his presidency will see the ascendency of the powers for harm in the world. Russia, Iran, North Korea. USA has lost all credibility in the world. Undone by Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. Despite their enormous military power they have been comprehensively outmanoeuvred by Putin at every turn.
In this disaster UK politicians like Blair and Hague have been complicit.
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Congratulations to the Russians for baling out America and no doubt these chemical weapons will be put beyond the reach of ALL Syrian forces.
To oversee this should we nominate General John de Chastelain to ensure this is done correctly? click I'm not convinced this was his finest hour especiually as the weapons being used by the New IRA can be traced back to killings committed by the Provisional IRA or should we call the the 'old' IRA!
what a political cop-out but in a way should we all be thanking Putin for baling out this super power?
If we think Russia has only just started to arm Syrian forces then we are living in cloud cuckoo land. That nation needs a warm water port and it has one. Tartus
To oversee this should we nominate General John de Chastelain to ensure this is done correctly? click I'm not convinced this was his finest hour especiually as the weapons being used by the New IRA can be traced back to killings committed by the Provisional IRA or should we call the the 'old' IRA!
what a political cop-out but in a way should we all be thanking Putin for baling out this super power?
If we think Russia has only just started to arm Syrian forces then we are living in cloud cuckoo land. That nation needs a warm water port and it has one. Tartus
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
France to Introduce Resolution Aimed at Dismantling Syria's Chemical Arsenal
PARIS—France's Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said Tuesday that Paris was preparing to introduce a resolution at the United Nations Security Council calling for an international inspection and the dismantling of Syria's chemical-weapon arsenal.
Mr. Fabius, speaking at a news conference, said the draft resolution would establish "consequences" for the regime if it fails to comply with the proposed program. He didn't name the consequences. He said the proposed resolution would also invoke Chapter 7, a clause that allows member states to use all possible means to enforce a resolution. "We don't want to accept any delay tactics," Mr. Fabius said. "All options remain on the table."...........
France's push to dismantle the chemical arsenal under Chapter 7 could face resistance. European diplomats had secretly proposed a similar resolution to Moscow weeks ago, according to a French official. However, Moscow rejected the proposal, because Chapter 7 makes the resolution binding. The French official said Paris considered its terms for the draft resolution "nonnegotiable."
France's proposed resolution comes after Russia said it is preparing a plan for Syria to hand over its stockpile of chemical weapons and put it under international control.
"Syrians must take immediate commitments," Mr. Fabius said.
Russia, one of Syria's closest allies, and one that wields veto power on the Security Council, has blocked previous resolutions aimed at punishing the Assad regime...............
PARIS—France's Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said Tuesday that Paris was preparing to introduce a resolution at the United Nations Security Council calling for an international inspection and the dismantling of Syria's chemical-weapon arsenal.
Mr. Fabius, speaking at a news conference, said the draft resolution would establish "consequences" for the regime if it fails to comply with the proposed program. He didn't name the consequences. He said the proposed resolution would also invoke Chapter 7, a clause that allows member states to use all possible means to enforce a resolution. "We don't want to accept any delay tactics," Mr. Fabius said. "All options remain on the table."...........
France's push to dismantle the chemical arsenal under Chapter 7 could face resistance. European diplomats had secretly proposed a similar resolution to Moscow weeks ago, according to a French official. However, Moscow rejected the proposal, because Chapter 7 makes the resolution binding. The French official said Paris considered its terms for the draft resolution "nonnegotiable."
France's proposed resolution comes after Russia said it is preparing a plan for Syria to hand over its stockpile of chemical weapons and put it under international control.
"Syrians must take immediate commitments," Mr. Fabius said.
Russia, one of Syria's closest allies, and one that wields veto power on the Security Council, has blocked previous resolutions aimed at punishing the Assad regime...............
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Interesting map:
http://images1.ynet.co.il/PicServer3.../4851307/3.jpg
This is big and detailed so resizing it would reduce its value.
Also I am not hosting it.
http://images1.ynet.co.il/PicServer3.../4851307/3.jpg
This is big and detailed so resizing it would reduce its value.
Also I am not hosting it.
Last edited by Eclectic; 10th Sep 2013 at 12:27.
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The big fighting in Syria right now is in the north, yet our media don't realise. The YPG are capturing several villages every day from the jihadists. Not in a random manner. They are strategically going after major border crossings and encircling jihadist forces.
The Kurds in the north were out of the main battles for a long time. Their militias were lightly armed and maintained their enclaves. They have a democratic structure.
After the FSA gained control over most of Aleppo the al Nusra and ISIS forces headed north to ethnically cleanse the Kurds. They were well armed with technicals, tanks and artillery. So they had huge successes. Large numbers of Kurdish refugees poured over the border into Kurdish Iraq.
The Kurds responded by sending lots of seasoned fighters from Turkey and Iraq. These guys easily out fight the islamic nutters. And now they are in the middle of a major campaign. Not just to win back territory, but to smite those who tried to ethnically cleanse them.
YPG on Wikipedia: People's Protection Units - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Kurds in the north were out of the main battles for a long time. Their militias were lightly armed and maintained their enclaves. They have a democratic structure.
After the FSA gained control over most of Aleppo the al Nusra and ISIS forces headed north to ethnically cleanse the Kurds. They were well armed with technicals, tanks and artillery. So they had huge successes. Large numbers of Kurdish refugees poured over the border into Kurdish Iraq.
The Kurds responded by sending lots of seasoned fighters from Turkey and Iraq. These guys easily out fight the islamic nutters. And now they are in the middle of a major campaign. Not just to win back territory, but to smite those who tried to ethnically cleanse them.
YPG on Wikipedia: People's Protection Units - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The Russian's have to take credit for this, they jumped on the words said by Kerry to come up with a proposal. If not for their strong support of Assad in the first place (China to) then the west would likely have been involved in Syria a long time ago. Its the fact Russia does support Assad so strongly that has prevented a war. If this proposal does work then Assad can go on to win the war using conventional weapons supplied by his allies.
Well done Russia.
Well done Russia.
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Back on topic, I heard a great quote on radio 4....
"If we did get involved with airstrikes on Syria, what are we really going to achieve"?
They'll still be killing each other regardless.
And after all them years in Iraq and Afghanistan they are no more peaceful, they still have sectarian killings or lawless tribal fighting.
My personal view is chemical weapons are not a "weapon of mass destruction" the AK47 is the true weapon of mass destruction.... ever. You'll find a lot more people have been killed by conventional means in the past months, years even. But call me Dave did not give a toss about intervention back then.
"If we did get involved with airstrikes on Syria, what are we really going to achieve"?
They'll still be killing each other regardless.
And after all them years in Iraq and Afghanistan they are no more peaceful, they still have sectarian killings or lawless tribal fighting.
My personal view is chemical weapons are not a "weapon of mass destruction" the AK47 is the true weapon of mass destruction.... ever. You'll find a lot more people have been killed by conventional means in the past months, years even. But call me Dave did not give a toss about intervention back then.
Last edited by gr4techie; 10th Sep 2013 at 12:33.
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The big mistake we made in Iraq and Afghanistan (other than going in) was not partitioning them.
Partitioning solved the Yugoslavia problem. Or going back the Austro Hungary problem.
Iraq should have been divided into three countries. Shia, Sunni and Kurd. As it is the Kurds have formed their own country anyhow. But the Sunnis and Shias will keep killing each other for all eternity. There is a proxy war between KSA (Sunni) and the mad mullahs (Shia) that is being fought out everywhere that there is Islam.
In Afghanistan we had this silly idea of forcing democracy on them. Something they don't need or want. This has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives. We should have split the place up as a federation under the various warlords and supported those who played ball and punished those who didn't. This would have been far faster, far cheaper and would have brought civilisation to the place far sooner.
The only workable solution to Syria is partition. They hate each other far too much to work together any time soon. On the ground they are already partitioned. Kurds in the north. Alawites in Damascus and Homs and along the coast. Sunnis along the Euphrates and in Allepo and the surrounding area.
A big problem is that when the colonialists drew their lines on the map they split up the Kurdish people. Destiny is that they will be reunited and now would be a good time. They are already self governing in Iraq and Syria. What is needed is for Turkey to give up their Kurdish territory to this new country, which is exactly what the Turks don't want. But the reality is that the Kurds have been fighting for a long time now and will continue to fight till they get their state. The Turks would do vastly better in every way if they accepted this.
Partitioning solved the Yugoslavia problem. Or going back the Austro Hungary problem.
Iraq should have been divided into three countries. Shia, Sunni and Kurd. As it is the Kurds have formed their own country anyhow. But the Sunnis and Shias will keep killing each other for all eternity. There is a proxy war between KSA (Sunni) and the mad mullahs (Shia) that is being fought out everywhere that there is Islam.
In Afghanistan we had this silly idea of forcing democracy on them. Something they don't need or want. This has cost us hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives. We should have split the place up as a federation under the various warlords and supported those who played ball and punished those who didn't. This would have been far faster, far cheaper and would have brought civilisation to the place far sooner.
The only workable solution to Syria is partition. They hate each other far too much to work together any time soon. On the ground they are already partitioned. Kurds in the north. Alawites in Damascus and Homs and along the coast. Sunnis along the Euphrates and in Allepo and the surrounding area.
A big problem is that when the colonialists drew their lines on the map they split up the Kurdish people. Destiny is that they will be reunited and now would be a good time. They are already self governing in Iraq and Syria. What is needed is for Turkey to give up their Kurdish territory to this new country, which is exactly what the Turks don't want. But the reality is that the Kurds have been fighting for a long time now and will continue to fight till they get their state. The Turks would do vastly better in every way if they accepted this.
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ENDEX
Barack Obama: I'll put Syria military strikes 'on hold' if Assad surrenders chemical weapons - Middle East - World - The Independent
Looks an awfully relieved chap
Barack Obama: I'll put Syria military strikes 'on hold' if Assad surrenders chemical weapons - Middle East - World - The Independent
Looks an awfully relieved chap
Last edited by NutLoose; 10th Sep 2013 at 14:50.
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Obama is not a lame duck president, he is a dead duck president.
In modern parlance he is Putin's bitch.
This despite the American military being very many more times powerful than the Russian military.
GW Bush was an utterly abysmal and inept president. Obama is much, much worse. A glib orator with absolutely zero substance. A natural non leader. The weakest person to be POTUS in my lifetime.
In modern parlance he is Putin's bitch.
This despite the American military being very many more times powerful than the Russian military.
GW Bush was an utterly abysmal and inept president. Obama is much, much worse. A glib orator with absolutely zero substance. A natural non leader. The weakest person to be POTUS in my lifetime.
Is Obama weak for bombing people or for not bombing them?
As for Putin - seems like Mugabe to me - has lots of fanbois just because he's been there a while and has managed to shaft all his opponents and everyone else in his country. For some of us that's greatness and something to aspire to.
As for Putin - seems like Mugabe to me - has lots of fanbois just because he's been there a while and has managed to shaft all his opponents and everyone else in his country. For some of us that's greatness and something to aspire to.
If better lucky than good can apply to my golf game, maybe it also applies to this sort of thing.
The ironic thing being any credible agreement to safeguard/remove the CW will require some boots on the ground in the middle of a civil war. Likely not US troops, but someone under UN authority will be in harms way.