Here it comes: Syria
So what is worse - killing people by leaving their bodies intact but poisoning their systems, or blowing bits off them and poking holes in them so they bleed to death or die from infections and peritonitis?
It's a heck of a lot cleaner to remove intact bodies than retrieve bits of toasted flesh from a crater.
Still not nice to kill your citizens, and we are being a bit hypocritical in many ways.
It's a heck of a lot cleaner to remove intact bodies than retrieve bits of toasted flesh from a crater.
Still not nice to kill your citizens, and we are being a bit hypocritical in many ways.
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So Simon Hughes was on the news saying they were just going to target the storage and production of CW's, pray tell how blowing seven shades of poo out of the site does not contaminate that site and release a cloud of the stuff into the atmosphere to drift downwind?
It would seem to me that the "coalition" may end up releasing more CW's onto the local populace than the incident that caused it in the first place.. That of course is if they haven't already been dispersed.
..
It would seem to me that the "coalition" may end up releasing more CW's onto the local populace than the incident that caused it in the first place.. That of course is if they haven't already been dispersed.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 29th Aug 2013 at 07:53.
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Airborne Aircrew -
One really wonder why around 100,000 people in Syria can die "conventionally" and no-one really cares but when a couple of hundred or so die by chemical we need to start a war...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Russian news agency quoting military source that they are deploying an ASW ship [destroyer/] from the Northern Fleet and the ASW cruiser Moscow from the Black Sea to the Med.
Don't they have to get permission/give notice to the Turks to transit the Bosphorus?
Don't they have to get permission/give notice to the Turks to transit the Bosphorus?
Last edited by ORAC; 29th Aug 2013 at 08:08.
Nutloose,
I have a possible answer to that. As I understand it, Sarin stores very badly; it degrades quite quickly giving it a relatively short shelf life. To get around this, it is typically stored as two separate components that are mixed to produce Sarin and then loaded into whatever delivery system they. Alternatively, the two components are loaded into a shell, bomb, etc, and these are mixed as the weapon is released, dropped, fired - I.E. a binary weapon.
The upshot is that the storage facility probably does not contain Sarin. That said, the chemical precursors aren't very nice, just nowhere near as bad as nerve agent.
I have a possible answer to that. As I understand it, Sarin stores very badly; it degrades quite quickly giving it a relatively short shelf life. To get around this, it is typically stored as two separate components that are mixed to produce Sarin and then loaded into whatever delivery system they. Alternatively, the two components are loaded into a shell, bomb, etc, and these are mixed as the weapon is released, dropped, fired - I.E. a binary weapon.
The upshot is that the storage facility probably does not contain Sarin. That said, the chemical precursors aren't very nice, just nowhere near as bad as nerve agent.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 29th Aug 2013 at 08:26.
So if binary - they may be able to hit the storage facilities and not necessarily release finished sarin?
Assad is certainly getting plenty of time to relocate, hide, move assets...
Assad is certainly getting plenty of time to relocate, hide, move assets...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Sky reporting the MOD as stating that they are deploying 6 Typhoons from CY to Akrotiri in the AD role in a "defensive posture".
This is a rebranding of the 29 Sqn det or an additional detachment?
This is a rebranding of the 29 Sqn det or an additional detachment?
Orac wrote
The Moskva isn't coming from the Black Sea but from the Caribbean. She has been on a goodwill tour of Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua. She is still a long way off!
Russian Warships Dock at Venezuelan Port for Visit | Defense | RIA Novosti
See following for movements
Bosphorus |
See following on the treaty
Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Russian news agency quoting military source that they are deploying an ASW ship [destroyer/] from the Northern Fleet and the ASW cruiser Moscow from the Black Sea to the Med.
Don't they have to get permission/give notice to the Turks to transit the Bosphorus?
Don't they have to get permission/give notice to the Turks to transit the Bosphorus?
MEXICO, August 27 (RIA Novosti) - A Russian naval task force, led by the Moskva missile cruiser, arrived Monday on a visit to the Venezuelan port of La Guaira, local media reported.
The Moskva, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, is accompanied by Udaloy-class destroyer Vice Admiral Kulakov from the Northern Fleet and the Ivan Bubnov tanker.
During the visit, which will last until August 29, the crews of the Russian warships are expected to meet with their Venezuelan colleagues and bestow honors to former President Hugo Chavez, who died of cancer on March 5.
Before the visit to Venezuela, the naval task force stopped at the ports of Cuba and Nicaragua. After August 29, the warships are scheduled to visit Spain and Portugal.
The Moskva, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, is accompanied by Udaloy-class destroyer Vice Admiral Kulakov from the Northern Fleet and the Ivan Bubnov tanker.
During the visit, which will last until August 29, the crews of the Russian warships are expected to meet with their Venezuelan colleagues and bestow honors to former President Hugo Chavez, who died of cancer on March 5.
Before the visit to Venezuela, the naval task force stopped at the ports of Cuba and Nicaragua. After August 29, the warships are scheduled to visit Spain and Portugal.
See following for movements
Bosphorus |
See following on the treaty
Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Last edited by TEEEJ; 29th Aug 2013 at 09:38.
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Thanks,
Anyone notice when Sabre rattling and we are going to war talk was going on you couldn't get "Slimy Hague" and "call me Dave" off the Air.
Now their bubble is seemingly getting burst and their plan is falling apart with them having to bow to pressure from Parliament and the Country, they vanish from the Airwaves and shove "round peg in a square hole Clegg" on to the TV to avoid being made to look wrong, and Clegg couldn't even look straight at the camera but avoided eye contact.
Though one feels the only reason Labour are being so against it is they are trying to distance themselves from the own near historical balls up under the name of BLiar.
I know about Binary Weapons Coff, but would they be stored at separate facilities or on site? in which case would a few explosions mix them and disperse them for you?
..
Anyone notice when Sabre rattling and we are going to war talk was going on you couldn't get "Slimy Hague" and "call me Dave" off the Air.
Now their bubble is seemingly getting burst and their plan is falling apart with them having to bow to pressure from Parliament and the Country, they vanish from the Airwaves and shove "round peg in a square hole Clegg" on to the TV to avoid being made to look wrong, and Clegg couldn't even look straight at the camera but avoided eye contact.
Though one feels the only reason Labour are being so against it is they are trying to distance themselves from the own near historical balls up under the name of BLiar.
I know about Binary Weapons Coff, but would they be stored at separate facilities or on site? in which case would a few explosions mix them and disperse them for you?
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 29th Aug 2013 at 11:18.
Not true... If it was Sarin then it becomes more effective, (it evaporates more quickly and gets into the atmosphere), as temperature rises but, similarly, it becomes less persistent, (it is effective for less time)... So emergency workers could walk in quite easily as long as they stay away from any pools of it and the existence of pools would depend on the delivery method - pools would indicate a very primitive delivery.
So Simon Hughes was on the news saying they were just going to target the storage and production of CW's, pray tell how blowing seven shades of poo out of the site does not contaminate that site and release a cloud of the stuff into the atmosphere to drift downwind?
It would seem to me that the "coalition" may end up releasing more CW's onto the local populace than the incident that caused it in the first place.. That of course is if they haven't already been dispersed.
It would seem to me that the "coalition" may end up releasing more CW's onto the local populace than the incident that caused it in the first place.. That of course is if they haven't already been dispersed.
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AA.
Not true... If it was Sarin then it becomes more effective, (it evaporates more quickly and gets into the atmosphere), as temperature rises but, similarly, it becomes less persistent, (it is effective for less time)... So emergency workers could walk in quite easily as long as they stay away from any pools of it and the existence of pools would depend on the delivery method - pools would indicate a very primitive delivery.
AA is correct in saying that Sarin is primarily a non persistent type of nerve agent and it is normally delivered in liquid form or as a gas. I would argue however that the ability to move around completely unprotected would be unwise especially in the immediate aftermath of an attack. As AA said if there were large concentrations of liquid in the vicinity then the local area and the area downwind of the concentration would present a substantial vapour hazard requiring at least the use of a respirator. This is assuming of course that we are talking about the real deal as opposed to the "Bath tub" type.
Not true... If it was Sarin then it becomes more effective, (it evaporates more quickly and gets into the atmosphere), as temperature rises but, similarly, it becomes less persistent, (it is effective for less time)... So emergency workers could walk in quite easily as long as they stay away from any pools of it and the existence of pools would depend on the delivery method - pools would indicate a very primitive delivery.
AA is correct in saying that Sarin is primarily a non persistent type of nerve agent and it is normally delivered in liquid form or as a gas. I would argue however that the ability to move around completely unprotected would be unwise especially in the immediate aftermath of an attack. As AA said if there were large concentrations of liquid in the vicinity then the local area and the area downwind of the concentration would present a substantial vapour hazard requiring at least the use of a respirator. This is assuming of course that we are talking about the real deal as opposed to the "Bath tub" type.
captbod
One did notice that the hospital staff did not have any form of PPE when the causalities were admitted and I suspect that the 'rescuers' were in the same position re equipment. So why were there no reported casualties in the hospitals due to clothing contamination. This leads me to postulate that 'bath tub' Sarin was used which being unstable evaporated and degraded quickly.
AA is correct in saying that Sarin is primarily a non persistent type of nerve agent and it is normally delivered in liquid form or as a gas. I would argue however that the ability to move around completely unprotected would be unwise especially in the immediate aftermath of an attack. As AA said if there were large concentrations of liquid in the vicinity then the local area and the area downwind of the concentration would present a substantial vapour hazard requiring at least the use of a respirator. This is assuming of course that we are talking about the real deal as opposed to the "Bath tub" type.
Hey, people, do I detect a touch of old fashioned democracy clicking in over the last 24 hours?
Jaw jaw is better than war war .................
my old mate Winston said that to me some time back.
Jaw jaw is better than war war .................
my old mate Winston said that to me some time back.
AA
Wasn't that Roosevelt or maybe Truman who also said 'walk softly and carry a big stick'
my old mate Winston said that to me some time back
I think so, but he/ they didn't say it in my hearing.
However the first Duke of Wellington told me that
"if it is not essential to change, then it is essential not to change" ....... almost the definition of a conservative, which I used to be.
However the first Duke of Wellington told me that
"if it is not essential to change, then it is essential not to change" ....... almost the definition of a conservative, which I used to be.
Here is a copy of the JIC report as published today.
Lord West the former Defence Minister on Sky demanding substantive evidence.
/www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/235094/Jp_115_JD_PM_Syria_Reported_Chemical_Weapon_Use_with_annex.p df
I am now trying to gey my brain to see something clearly:
If Syria never signed the international protocol, what illegal thing have they done if they used chemical weapons, but didn't use it in a war against another nation? No, I don't think using poison gas on the citizens is right, nor moral, but I'd like a few more data points for understanding.
As noted by others, the last two years have seen plenty of dead citizens using conventional munitions. Is that illegal is some way?
Here's a thought: is it really "illegal" for there to be a civil war within a country? Think about that: no few nations have been born, or changed, for better and for worse thanks to a war within their own borders, both with and without international participation.
If Syria never signed the international protocol, what illegal thing have they done if they used chemical weapons, but didn't use it in a war against another nation? No, I don't think using poison gas on the citizens is right, nor moral, but I'd like a few more data points for understanding.
As noted by others, the last two years have seen plenty of dead citizens using conventional munitions. Is that illegal is some way?
Here's a thought: is it really "illegal" for there to be a civil war within a country? Think about that: no few nations have been born, or changed, for better and for worse thanks to a war within their own borders, both with and without international participation.
Captbod,
Yes, Sarin is non-persistent, regardless of what the journos say. It's very volatile and in the Syrian heat would not remain in liquid form for more than about half an hour - even in the cold it will only last some 7-10 hours.
NutLoose,
I'm Courtney, not Coff, Mate.
I wasn't trying to be patronizing, sorry. As to your point, even if the precursors were stored on the same site, they still need to be mixed effectively. Blowing up storage tanks wouldn't do that very well. In any event, extreme heat helps break down most nerve agents.
AirPig,
Re the "bath tub" Sarin. The Russians decided that the Sarin used in the Aleppo CW attack back in March was not factory made as it did not appear to contain stabilizers. They used that 'fact' to claim that it had been made by the rebels. But those stabilizers are only there to extend the shelf life, not to make it more persistent. Again, given the temperatures, victims' contaminated clothing only poses a threat for around 30 minutes with Sarin. We also saw a lot of water being sprayed around in the videos of the latest attack. Water breaks Sarin down very effectively. So I don't think there was too much risk to unprotected rescuers and doctors, but I don't think that can be used to assess where it came from.
Yes, Sarin is non-persistent, regardless of what the journos say. It's very volatile and in the Syrian heat would not remain in liquid form for more than about half an hour - even in the cold it will only last some 7-10 hours.
NutLoose,
I'm Courtney, not Coff, Mate.
I wasn't trying to be patronizing, sorry. As to your point, even if the precursors were stored on the same site, they still need to be mixed effectively. Blowing up storage tanks wouldn't do that very well. In any event, extreme heat helps break down most nerve agents.AirPig,
Re the "bath tub" Sarin. The Russians decided that the Sarin used in the Aleppo CW attack back in March was not factory made as it did not appear to contain stabilizers. They used that 'fact' to claim that it had been made by the rebels. But those stabilizers are only there to extend the shelf life, not to make it more persistent. Again, given the temperatures, victims' contaminated clothing only poses a threat for around 30 minutes with Sarin. We also saw a lot of water being sprayed around in the videos of the latest attack. Water breaks Sarin down very effectively. So I don't think there was too much risk to unprotected rescuers and doctors, but I don't think that can be used to assess where it came from.