If Scotland Declares UDI..........

[OutlawPete]

I wasn't in the north east during the periods of downturn that have been illustrated above. During that time I was raising a young family on an airbase in the south of England. Glad that I had the umbrella of AMQ's as I watched friends and colleagues who owned property become consumed by negative equity and high interest rates.

A period of time that I hope no part of the UK ever sees again. Despite my leanings towards preserving the union, more and more I see better social and economic ideas emerging from Hollyrood. Cameron, Osborne and co are letting us down.

[TomJoad]

Yes 1992 was a bad year for home owners in the UK- I had a good friend who lived and owned a house in Peterborough when interest rates hit 14%. It was beans on toast for a long while. Having said that a lot of people where being rather ambitious with the mortgages they had taken out - too much viewing a house as a speculative measure rather than a home. Hopefully we now live in more sensible times. Although the government remains keen to interfere with the housing market.

[TT2]

Housing?

Yes, Harry, I remember it very well in Aberdeen. Folks just handing the keys in to banks / estate agents / whatever. Wee downturn on the oil price and its the contractrers first to go..........mortgaged to the hilt. Quite terrible.

I was quite lucky being shacked up with a research chemist, myself, flying and engineering and had adopted a fixed rate loan for the mortgage - I think it was about 13.3%. Jeez, "A property owning democracy"

Even the memory of that woman makes me kowk - having previously lived in Germany where property loans were set at government level at about 1.5%
And the other clown, "Get on your bikes to get a job" How do get a bike with no money? Steal one? Great, drives the crime figures up.

Pratt.......how about a wee bit of government investment to have the unemployed get paid to build cycles for the unemployed - some of them surely would use them for the purpose supplied.

[Icanseeclearly]

I see Robertson (SNP defence spokesman) has now stated that we could share a fast jet fleet.

Could this work? I can't think of anywhere this happens, how would deployments work? Etc etc etc

[Courtney Mil]

we could share a fast jet fleet

Could we indeed? That's terribly kind of Robertson. Who's fleet would that be, I wonder?

Icanseeclearly, the points you raise pretty much make it a non-starter. What if the fleet is required by one partner for an operation that the other partner is not involved in or objects to?

I think Robertson is showing us a gaping hole in his understanding of mitiary aviation.

[Heathrow Harry]

he's probably thinking of the Hertz option - call up and have one delivered to your home for a day's rental.......................

[TT2]

Hertz?

Actually, quite a sensible suggestion - after all, wars don't happen just at the drop of a hat. But, all things considered, who would want to invade or declare war on Scotland. Bit daft really.........they'd lose the source of deep fried Mars Bars.

[Heathrow Harry]

Only the English .......................... why I've never been sure.............

[Biggus]

What incentive would there be for the rest of the UK to "share" a fast jet fleet with an independent Scotland?

It seems to me that a lot of SNP policies rely on continuing to "share" something (currency, central bank, welfare system ( BBC News - Scottish independence: 'Retain welfare set-up for transitional period' ), etc, with the rest of the UK after independence.

This raises a couple of questions in my mind. How "independent" would an independent Scotland really be, and as I said earlier, what incentive is there for a UK government to meet the SNP's wish list of items (horse trading over a variety of options maybe, including Faslane for example)?

Someone said earlier, I think it was a purely personal opinion, that if the rest of the UK didn't meet their terms, an independent Scotland would refuse to take on any of the national debt - which strikes me as a form of blackmail, a nice way for two nations who share a common border to start off their relationship (not!), and also a move that may effect Scotland's credit rating with the rest of the world?

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by Biggus

What incentive would there be for the rest of the UK to "share" a fast jet fleet with an independent Scotland?


This raises a couple of questions in my mind. How "independent" would an independent Scotland really be, and as I said earlier, what incentive is there for a UK government to meet the SNP's wish list of items (horse trading over a variety of options maybe, including Faslane for example)?

Someone said earlier, I think it was a purely personal opinion, that if the rest of the UK didn't meet their terms, an independent Scotland would refuse to take on any of the national debt - which strikes me as a form of blackmail, a nice way for two nations who share a common border to start off their relationship (not!), and also a move that may effect Scotland's credit rating with the rest of the world?

Agreed, Faslane would certainly be used as a bargaining chip. The process that you described Biggus is exactly what would take place - in fact it is really what the referendum is about - namely a mandate for the Scottish government to enter into negotiations with Westminster to form what is referred to as "the settlement". And yes it will certainly be a bargaining process (if it ever takes places) where both sides will come to the table with an agenda of items they wish to preserve and things they will be happy to surrender in order to maintain others. For example what value would Westminster place on continued use of Faslane in its present form, what value would Westminster place on continued access to the Scottish low flying areas and the ranges such as Cape Wrath? What impact would the loss of the Scottish regiments have on the UK's Land capability? I certainly do not know, but I would imagine that these alone may provide some topic for negotiations. In the non defence realm Scotland exports its excess electrical energy to England and France via the grid's interconector - only the other year when the severe drought hit England there was some serious thought given to building a similar "water interconector" to provide water to Southern Britain from Scotland. Some of these trading cards will fall but some will fly and out of the negotiations would no doubt emerge some novel and creative arrangements. After all who would have thought we would ever see the UK loaning the French use of our aircraft! Once the settlement has been agreed between Westminster and the Scottish government my understanding is that it would in turn be put to the people to approve or "send them back to think again". Although happy to be corrected on that point. So yes you are absolutely correct on that a bargaining process over share of the national debt and disposition of assets.

[Courtney Mil]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

For example what value would Westminster place on continued use of Faslane in its present form

By all accounts, that's a complete no-no. Or are you suggesting the SNP anti-nuclear sance is negotiable? Not much of a core principle if it is.

[Fareastdriver]

only the other year when the severe drought hit England there was some serious thought given to building a similar "water interconector" to provide water to Southern Britain from Scotland

The people that dreamt that up believed it would be easy. They thought that they only need to build a pipeline; the water would then flow downhill to England.

[Biggus]

You could just collect water in Scotland..........









freeze dry it.......









ship it down to England in trucks.........








then add water to re-hydrate it!!!! Simples!!!

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by Fareastdriver

The people that dreamt that up believed it would be easy. They thought that they only need to build a pipeline; the water would then flow downhill to England.

The engineering and financial challenges are indeed significant but I do not believe that The Institute of Mechanical Engineers who commissioned the feasibility study would have " thought that they only need to build a pipeline; the water would then flow downhill to England",

Having said that one design solution put forward by the University of Strathclyde did make use of gravity fall running alongside existing national rail infrastructure combined with a pumped grid. The biggest challenge arises from the high specific gravity of water and associated frictional losses which occur in pumping it over large runs. In layman terms water weighs a lot. However, if the effects of climate change are persistent then the economical imperatives for maintaining a drought free south of England become rather more convincing - the IMechE's National Water Grid may yet look compelling.

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by Courtney Mil

By all accounts, that's a complete no-no. Or are you suggesting the SNP anti-nuclear sance is negotiable? Not much of a core principle if it is.

Courtney of course it is negotiable! The SNP are fully aware of the difficulty loss of the Faslane facility would bring. The UK government would seek an agreement for a phased withdrawal say over 5-10 years in return for x, y, z.
How bad does the SNP want a currency union, how badly do they need a phased rundown of the benefits system until such time as an independent Scotland can build the infrastructure and system records, how badly do they , and the UK for that matter, need defence cooperation. Everything is negotiable of course it is.

You know, when we put aside the negativity and hostility that this thread has engendered (bantar aside) is there actually any doubt in anyone's mind that if (and it remains a big if in my opinion) Scotland pursues independence
that the former states of the UK would not remain the closest of allys sharing common concerns and aims.

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by Biggus

You could just collect water in Scotland..........

freeze dry it.......

ship it down to England in trucks.........

then add water to re-hydrate it!!!! Simples!!!

Was considered Biggus and does actually appear as a contingency measure in the UK's National Resilience plans (minus of course the freezing and re-hydrating).

[Courtney Mil]

Originally Posted by Tom Joad

Coyrtney of course it is negotiable!

Goodness. Is there no political party that won't sell their principles for their own purposes? Mr Disillusioned! CND and Greenpeace will be queuing up for jobs there next.

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by Courtney Mil

Goodness. Is there no political party that won't sell their principles for their own purposes? Mr Disillusioned! CND and Greenpeace will be queuing up for jobs there next.

Sorry Courtney - I had a negligent discharge there, pressed the button too early - My reply was incomplete

But yes you are absolutely right politics is no gentlemen's game

[CoffmanStarter]

Evening chaps ... What's the SNP's stance on BBQ fuel ... Gas or Charcoal

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by CoffmanStarter

Evening chaps ... What's the SNP's stance on BBQ fuel ... Gas or Charcoal

Coffman oil of course (the Scottish variety)

But hey you don't BBQ marsbars you fry them deeply