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Leon - SNCO pilots
Sorry, internet has been down, hence slow reply. RE SNCO pilot savings, even given the similar pay amounts, there are 14 levels from base Fg Off to top Flt Lt but 23 levels from base Sgt to top WO. Therefore, progression would appear to be slower and also cheaper at the SNCO level. Moreover, SNCOs would not automatically be entitled to the larger officer SFA (while they continue to exist) and Mess scalings for SNCOs are cheaper than officers scalings.
I'm not sure that this is as simple as pay comparison and I'm sure there are other factors such as longer tour lengths (less Disturbance Allowance claims). Uniform issue is probably a red herring as there has been recent talk of issuing free to officers too (doing away with the tax allowance at the same time). There will also be savings in training as the course could be designed around the current NCA course. Reduced training time, costs etc.
The structure would also be broadly similar to WW2 albeit much smaller, with Flt Lts as Flt Cdrs and Sqns commanded by.......Sqn Ldrs!!!!!
A partly flippant, partly serious suggestion. I'm sure there are flaws but an all officer sqn in the current climate does not appear to match public thinking (too many top brass etc)
I'm not sure that this is as simple as pay comparison and I'm sure there are other factors such as longer tour lengths (less Disturbance Allowance claims). Uniform issue is probably a red herring as there has been recent talk of issuing free to officers too (doing away with the tax allowance at the same time). There will also be savings in training as the course could be designed around the current NCA course. Reduced training time, costs etc.
The structure would also be broadly similar to WW2 albeit much smaller, with Flt Lts as Flt Cdrs and Sqns commanded by.......Sqn Ldrs!!!!!
A partly flippant, partly serious suggestion. I'm sure there are flaws but an all officer sqn in the current climate does not appear to match public thinking (too many top brass etc)
LJ,
An alternative comparison may be:
Recruit snco pilot at age 21. Pay him as a sgt for 10 years, FS for 15 years and MACr for his last 10 years up to retirement at age 55. Spend his whole career as professional aircrew with 34 years piloting either on the front-line or closely related posts. When he is about to retire, employ another 21 year old to replace him. Training pipeline in simple terms = 1 new pilot required every 34 years. Experience level = 12,000 hrs on whatever type, with consumate knowledge of the aircraft, TTP's, etc.. Accept they are specialists in a narrow field and are not going to be used for campaign planning.
Recruit officer pilot at age 21. Pay him as a fg off for 2 years, fl lt for 5 years, sqn ldr for 5 years, wg cdr for 8 years, gp capt until retirement at 55. After his first couple of tours flying, he goes to a ground tour and then has to do a full OCU course before returning as a flt cdr. Likewise, after further ground tours and the cost of staff college, there will be another full OCU course. Training pipeline in simple terms = 1 new pilot required every 3 years. Experience level = 3,000 hrs on type but a much broader outlook on how defence is run and capable of planning wars.
Haven't got time to do the maths right now but overall, the cost of the snco has to be significantly less.
An alternative comparison may be:
Recruit snco pilot at age 21. Pay him as a sgt for 10 years, FS for 15 years and MACr for his last 10 years up to retirement at age 55. Spend his whole career as professional aircrew with 34 years piloting either on the front-line or closely related posts. When he is about to retire, employ another 21 year old to replace him. Training pipeline in simple terms = 1 new pilot required every 34 years. Experience level = 12,000 hrs on whatever type, with consumate knowledge of the aircraft, TTP's, etc.. Accept they are specialists in a narrow field and are not going to be used for campaign planning.
Recruit officer pilot at age 21. Pay him as a fg off for 2 years, fl lt for 5 years, sqn ldr for 5 years, wg cdr for 8 years, gp capt until retirement at 55. After his first couple of tours flying, he goes to a ground tour and then has to do a full OCU course before returning as a flt cdr. Likewise, after further ground tours and the cost of staff college, there will be another full OCU course. Training pipeline in simple terms = 1 new pilot required every 3 years. Experience level = 3,000 hrs on type but a much broader outlook on how defence is run and capable of planning wars.
Haven't got time to do the maths right now but overall, the cost of the snco has to be significantly less.
Last edited by Party Animal; 11th Apr 2013 at 10:00.
You guys are mental or accomplished wind-up artists. With an acknowledged difficulty in retaining pilots and drawing them through into SO2 and SO1 positions are you really suggesting paying the next generation less????
Madness.
Madness.
JTO
The single most obvious flaw in all of the pro-SNCO pilots argument. As well as the fact that without all officer (RAF/FAA) sqns you have fewer people for all those annoying staff jobs that still need to be done. Or you put Masters into SO3 jobs, meaning there will be annoying staff jobs for SNCO pilots as well. As well as Party Animal's assumption that the SNCO pilot will stay to 55 - of course they wouldn't be seduced by the airlines, or the NS helicopter industry, or the new privatised SAR force, would they? Just imagine a sgt pilot on the A330, with an A330 type rating and an A330 instrument rating. On sgts pay or on BA/Virgin/BMI (other airlines are available) pay!!
The single most obvious flaw in all of the pro-SNCO pilots argument. As well as the fact that without all officer (RAF/FAA) sqns you have fewer people for all those annoying staff jobs that still need to be done. Or you put Masters into SO3 jobs, meaning there will be annoying staff jobs for SNCO pilots as well. As well as Party Animal's assumption that the SNCO pilot will stay to 55 - of course they wouldn't be seduced by the airlines, or the NS helicopter industry, or the new privatised SAR force, would they? Just imagine a sgt pilot on the A330, with an A330 type rating and an A330 instrument rating. On sgts pay or on BA/Virgin/BMI (other airlines are available) pay!!
are you really suggesting paying the next generation less????
Having said that, has the RAF ever struggled to retain WSOps? Maybe, you have inadvertantly provided another good reason to consider recruiting snco pilots? Perhaps, knowing you can just fly an aircraft for 34 years without all the staff crap to go with it has a lot more of an attraction than being a glorified GD officer who manages a bit of flying during a career? I.e, retention positive, as opposed to telling a 30 year old sqn ldr pilot at the end of his flt cdr tour that he will not go to staff college and therefore will never fly again, as desk jobs have a greater need?
I'm just sayin....
Champagne anyone...?
Perhaps, knowing you can just fly an aircraft for 34 years without all the staff crap
Thanks for the examples - I was begining to think that I'd delivered a coupe de grace. I still remain sceptical about there being any great savings to be made in terms of wages - when the Mrs is watching some tripe on the box I'll try and put some examples together to compare (I may be proved wrong having done this!).
As for going straight through 30 odd years doing flying only, I know of plenty of officers that have done this; refusing promotion and aligning themselves to QFI or QWI skills sets. I suspect that there are probably as many, by percentage, officers as there are NCA that never have a non-flying job (and they are probably as rare as hen's teeth if you discount "flying related" jobs).
I also know of plenty of NCA (Non-Commisioned Aircrew) that have ended up in non-flying ops jobs, station flight safety jobs, FOD prevention jobs, Simulator jobs, ground instructor posts, Air Command, Group and Force Headquarters jobs. So don't be naive to believe being a SNCO/WO will guarantee staying on a flight deck or in a cockpit.
LJ
As for going straight through 30 odd years doing flying only, I know of plenty of officers that have done this; refusing promotion and aligning themselves to QFI or QWI skills sets. I suspect that there are probably as many, by percentage, officers as there are NCA that never have a non-flying job (and they are probably as rare as hen's teeth if you discount "flying related" jobs).
I also know of plenty of NCA (Non-Commisioned Aircrew) that have ended up in non-flying ops jobs, station flight safety jobs, FOD prevention jobs, Simulator jobs, ground instructor posts, Air Command, Group and Force Headquarters jobs. So don't be naive to believe being a SNCO/WO will guarantee staying on a flight deck or in a cockpit.
LJ
Gentleman Aviator
Come on! Can anyone explain to me why it would be significantly cheaper to have SNCO or WO Pilots rather than Officer Pilots in the RAF?
LJ,
There are some good points against, raised above. Maybe another option to calculate is a 16/38 point. Sgt for 10 years followed by FS for the last 6 maybe? Should be able to hold onto them in flying slots for that length of time.
I'm not advocating the RAF and RN go down this route by the way. Just interested in the costings as you raised it earlier. I think for me, the reduced flying training (in simplistic terms) could be the highest factor?
Will be interested to see how it turns out.
There are some good points against, raised above. Maybe another option to calculate is a 16/38 point. Sgt for 10 years followed by FS for the last 6 maybe? Should be able to hold onto them in flying slots for that length of time.
I'm not advocating the RAF and RN go down this route by the way. Just interested in the costings as you raised it earlier. I think for me, the reduced flying training (in simplistic terms) could be the highest factor?
Will be interested to see how it turns out.
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At the end of the day the costs for SNCO v Officer pilot can be quibbled over forever, but they are really very similar and when compared to total aircraft costs the difference is infinitesimal.
Of course pilots who spend 12 months officer training then do hardly any flying is extremely wasteful. I'm sure the army are all over it.
Of course pilots who spend 12 months officer training then do hardly any flying is extremely wasteful. I'm sure the army are all over it.
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SNCO Aircrew costs vs Commissioned Costs
I've thought for a long time that....
...all aircrew categories open to SNCO but not direct entry, so recruited from existing SNCOs (air or ground) and ground trades cpls with a +ve promotion recommendation. Thus straight into flying training and no officer (or direct entry sgt) training costs. Direct entry commissioned aircrew available but much smaller, and so easily met, recruitment targets allowing a major re-modelling of UASs (but VSOs at the top have a huge loyalty to the existing and long standing UAS system). Most JP posts wouldn't matter if FOFL or SNCO.
Significantly fewercommissioned aircrew would remove some remaining requirement for as many commissioned ground jobs, re-invigorating the responsibilities and status of SNCOs and WOs generally. A good thing.
Commissioned officers, generally, are expensive. Long training with reasonable failure rate and are the still an unknown quantity for years, with further expense of failures.
...all aircrew categories open to SNCO but not direct entry, so recruited from existing SNCOs (air or ground) and ground trades cpls with a +ve promotion recommendation. Thus straight into flying training and no officer (or direct entry sgt) training costs. Direct entry commissioned aircrew available but much smaller, and so easily met, recruitment targets allowing a major re-modelling of UASs (but VSOs at the top have a huge loyalty to the existing and long standing UAS system). Most JP posts wouldn't matter if FOFL or SNCO.
Significantly fewercommissioned aircrew would remove some remaining requirement for as many commissioned ground jobs, re-invigorating the responsibilities and status of SNCOs and WOs generally. A good thing.
Commissioned officers, generally, are expensive. Long training with reasonable failure rate and are the still an unknown quantity for years, with further expense of failures.
Last edited by LeggyMountbatten; 11th Apr 2013 at 18:23. Reason: typos
If we were talking about running an airline I can see how this would work. But I wonder what the differences would be on a modern front line squadron where there is a lot more to being a pilot, a captain et al, than just being a qual'd pilot. There are leadership issues too. Detachments operating in remote areas, etc. You get my drift.
"Nocker" Pilot Myth Busted
Right, this has taken me frikkin' ages! I have modelled direct entry NCA and Officers for comparison and done it to 22 years in accordance with the new Future Armed Forces Pension Scheme (FAFPS) which starts in 2015. At that 22 year point they either retire, promote or go PAS.
Flying Pay - same for both Officers and SNCOs
After OCU 5135
After 4 year 8712
After 8 years 13855
After 12 years 16308
Flying Training - same for both
EFT 26 weeks
BJFT 40 weeks
AJT 36 weeks
FJ OCU – 6 months
Officer Annual pay
Officer Cadet during first 7 months of training -15823
Pilot Officer - 24861 (Level 5 only)
Flying Officer - 29882 – 33030 (5 Levels)
Flight Lieutenant - 38295 – 45541 (9 Levels)
NCA Annual pay
Recruit during first six months of training (9 weeks RTS and 11 weeks NCAITC) -14286
Recruit during remainder of flying training - 27868
(on OCU) Sergeant - 33083 – 37298 (7 Levels)
Flight Sergeant - 37323 – 43684 (9 Levels)
Master Aircrew - 42501 – 47220 (7 Levels)
Direct Entry NCA Example
Year 1 – 7143+13934 = 21077
Year 2 – 27868 (wings awarded at end of year and starts as Sgt)
Year 3 – 33083 (OCU completed at end of year and FP starts)
Year 4 – 33939 + 5135 = 39074
Year 5 – 34800 + 5135 = 39935
Year 6 – 35238 + 5135 = 40373
Year 7 – 35925 + 5135 = 41060 (start 2nd Tour)
Year 8 – 36611 + 8712 = 45323
Year 9 – 37298 + 8712 = 46010
Year 10 – 37298 + 8712 = 46010 (end of 2nd Tour and promotes Flt Sgt)
Year 11 – 37323 + 8712 = 46035
Year 12 – 38224 + 13855 = 52079 630064
Year 13 – 39138 + 13855 = 52993 (end of 3rd Tour)
Year 14 – 40044 + 13855 = 53899
Year 15 – 40954 + 13855 = 54809
Year 16 – 41860 + 16308 = 58168 (end of 4th Tour)
Year 17 – 42464 + 16308 = 58772
Year 18 – 43068 + 16308 = 59376
Year 19 – 43684 + 16308 = 59992 (end of 5th Tour)
Year 20 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992
Year 21 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992
Year 22 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992 (Retire or PAS?)
Total Cost for NCA so far => £1,055,912
Direct Entry Officer
Year 1 – 9230+10358 = 19588 (Graduate as Plt Off)
Year 2 – 29882 (promote to Fg Off)
Year 3 – 30672 (OCU completed at end of year and FP starts)
Year 4 – 31458 + 5135 = 36593
Year 5 – 32239 + 5135 = 37374
Year 6 – 33030 +5135 = 38165
Year 7 – 38295 + 5135 = 43430 (start 2nd Tour and promotes Flt Lt)
Year 8 – 39321 + 8712 = 48033
Year 9 – 40359 + 8712 = 49071
Year 10 – 41401 + 8712 = 50113 (start 3rd Tour – OCU Instructor)
Year 11 – 42431 + 8712 = 51143
Year 12 – 43469 + 13855 = 57324
Year 13 – 44499 + 13855 = 58354 (start 4th Tour)
Year 14 – 45024 + 13855 = 58879
Year 15 – 45541 + 13855 = 59396
Year 16 – 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (start 5th Tour)
Year 17 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 18 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 19 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (Start 6th Tour)
Year 20 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 21 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 22 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (Retire, PAS or promote?)
Total Cost for Direct Entry Officer so far => £1,081,372
The Officer Stream is £25,460 more expensive or ~20 minutes in a Typhoon!!
As for SFA costs - a Sgt's house is significantly cheaper than that for a Flt Lt. Therefore, it is likely that they are more costly to Defence as they have a bigger subsidy.
Therefore, I would call the myth about SNCO Pilots being massively cheaper than Officer Pilots on a like-for-like entry basis - well and truly busted!
LJ
Flying Pay - same for both Officers and SNCOs
After OCU 5135
After 4 year 8712
After 8 years 13855
After 12 years 16308
Flying Training - same for both
EFT 26 weeks
BJFT 40 weeks
AJT 36 weeks
FJ OCU – 6 months
Officer Annual pay
Officer Cadet during first 7 months of training -15823
Pilot Officer - 24861 (Level 5 only)
Flying Officer - 29882 – 33030 (5 Levels)
Flight Lieutenant - 38295 – 45541 (9 Levels)
NCA Annual pay
Recruit during first six months of training (9 weeks RTS and 11 weeks NCAITC) -14286
Recruit during remainder of flying training - 27868
(on OCU) Sergeant - 33083 – 37298 (7 Levels)
Flight Sergeant - 37323 – 43684 (9 Levels)
Master Aircrew - 42501 – 47220 (7 Levels)
Direct Entry NCA Example
Year 1 – 7143+13934 = 21077
Year 2 – 27868 (wings awarded at end of year and starts as Sgt)
Year 3 – 33083 (OCU completed at end of year and FP starts)
Year 4 – 33939 + 5135 = 39074
Year 5 – 34800 + 5135 = 39935
Year 6 – 35238 + 5135 = 40373
Year 7 – 35925 + 5135 = 41060 (start 2nd Tour)
Year 8 – 36611 + 8712 = 45323
Year 9 – 37298 + 8712 = 46010
Year 10 – 37298 + 8712 = 46010 (end of 2nd Tour and promotes Flt Sgt)
Year 11 – 37323 + 8712 = 46035
Year 12 – 38224 + 13855 = 52079 630064
Year 13 – 39138 + 13855 = 52993 (end of 3rd Tour)
Year 14 – 40044 + 13855 = 53899
Year 15 – 40954 + 13855 = 54809
Year 16 – 41860 + 16308 = 58168 (end of 4th Tour)
Year 17 – 42464 + 16308 = 58772
Year 18 – 43068 + 16308 = 59376
Year 19 – 43684 + 16308 = 59992 (end of 5th Tour)
Year 20 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992
Year 21 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992
Year 22 - 43684 + 16308 = 59992 (Retire or PAS?)
Total Cost for NCA so far => £1,055,912
Direct Entry Officer
Year 1 – 9230+10358 = 19588 (Graduate as Plt Off)
Year 2 – 29882 (promote to Fg Off)
Year 3 – 30672 (OCU completed at end of year and FP starts)
Year 4 – 31458 + 5135 = 36593
Year 5 – 32239 + 5135 = 37374
Year 6 – 33030 +5135 = 38165
Year 7 – 38295 + 5135 = 43430 (start 2nd Tour and promotes Flt Lt)
Year 8 – 39321 + 8712 = 48033
Year 9 – 40359 + 8712 = 49071
Year 10 – 41401 + 8712 = 50113 (start 3rd Tour – OCU Instructor)
Year 11 – 42431 + 8712 = 51143
Year 12 – 43469 + 13855 = 57324
Year 13 – 44499 + 13855 = 58354 (start 4th Tour)
Year 14 – 45024 + 13855 = 58879
Year 15 – 45541 + 13855 = 59396
Year 16 – 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (start 5th Tour)
Year 17 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 18 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 19 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (Start 6th Tour)
Year 20 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 21 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849
Year 22 - 45541 + 16308 = 61849 (Retire, PAS or promote?)
Total Cost for Direct Entry Officer so far => £1,081,372
The Officer Stream is £25,460 more expensive or ~20 minutes in a Typhoon!!
As for SFA costs - a Sgt's house is significantly cheaper than that for a Flt Lt. Therefore, it is likely that they are more costly to Defence as they have a bigger subsidy.
Therefore, I would call the myth about SNCO Pilots being massively cheaper than Officer Pilots on a like-for-like entry basis - well and truly busted!
LJ
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The Officer Stream is £25,460 more expensive or ~20 minutes in a Typhoon!!
As for SFA costs - a Sgt's house is significantly cheaper than that for a Flt Lt. Therefore, it is likely that they are more costly to Defence as they have a bigger subsidy.
Therefore, I would call the myth about SNCO Pilots being massively cheaper than Officer Pilots on a like-for-like entry basis - well and truly busted!
LJ[/QUOTE]
Hang on - a few way points missed there to reach a sweeping conclusion Anyway 10/10 for effort. Now how about sorting out the grand unified theory, you seam to have time on your hand Leon 
As for SFA costs - a Sgt's house is significantly cheaper than that for a Flt Lt. Therefore, it is likely that they are more costly to Defence as they have a bigger subsidy.
Therefore, I would call the myth about SNCO Pilots being massively cheaper than Officer Pilots on a like-for-like entry basis - well and truly busted!
LJ
[/QUOTE]Hang on - a few way points missed there to reach a sweeping conclusion
Anyway 10/10 for effort. Now how about sorting out the grand unified theory, you seam to have time on your hand Leon
Wensleydale, they (Lightning II) won't need to as the loadie on board the Voyager will just punch buttons on the Mission Planning System and out will pop the answers and the jets will be on their way home.
Oh, silly me - I forgot that the MPS is not fit for purpose and Voyager isn't cleared to tank, but that doesn't matter because the Voyager can't go anywhere near an operational theatre as it has no defensive aids.
Oh, silly me - I forgot that the MPS is not fit for purpose and Voyager isn't cleared to tank, but that doesn't matter because the Voyager can't go anywhere near an operational theatre as it has no defensive aids.
Which, the MAA might be interested to learn, has never been rigorously tested....
Meanwhile, the mission software (which works just fine) in another tanker is already being updated with future ops in mind - e.g. the use of non-database expeditionary airfields, FARPs and even aircraft carriers as en-route AAR abort options....
The aim being to make the system as intuitive as possible so that it will not require highly experienced personnel to work with it.
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Stichbitch
Bit off topic but, Nutloose, you must be thinking of another Spitfire.. not the RR one that left BBMF, the only time that crashed was on landing at East Midlands..with no fatalities..
Bit off topic but, Nutloose, you must be thinking of another Spitfire.. not the RR one that left BBMF, the only time that crashed was on landing at East Midlands..with no fatalities..
was in a Harvard.. It didn't crash at East Mids BTW, it had the gear inadvertently retracted whilst rolling down the runway... It had another one incidentally where it ended up on it's nose departing Woodvale to join the fledgling BBMF in 1957. It should be back soon from repair.
The RR Mk14 did however crash when it failed to pull out of a loop during a display in 92 at Woodford killing the pilot, that is currently partially rebuilt and in storage at East Mids..
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/f...rivalsmall.jpg
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Apr 2013 at 23:38.