Royal Air Force Pilot gets DFC
There's a nice little story surrounding the late Richard Ulric Langworthy DFC AFC and it concerns whether or not his name should be included on the panels of the SH Memorial, at that time being constructed at Odiham. The concern focused on whether Dick, who did not die in an accident or from enemy action, could be added. It was eventually decided that although his death was from natural causes, it happened between signing the aircraft out and signing it back in again: hence he was deemed eligible.
Returning to the main thrust of this Thread and in no way wishing to detract from the exceptional bravery shown, I wonder why there appears never to have been a gallantry award (DFC/AFC) - except SAR - to either a co-pilot or importantly one of the guys or girls down the back. I believe the decision to do away with NCO related awards (DFM/AFM/CGM Flying) in about 1994 has a direct influence on this. On a related subject and again not wishing to detract from the Thread's main topic, the RAF always seems to be very parsimonious in making awards and I know from experience of the system that it does not work as I believed it ought. That is not suggest that we need unfettered dishing out of awards but perhaps a greater realism relative to our army friends.
Congratulations to Flt Lt Gordon DFC.
Old Duffer
PS I think the last 'in enemy action' award to an SH crewman/woman might have been in Gulf War One - 'elementary my dear Watson'!
Returning to the main thrust of this Thread and in no way wishing to detract from the exceptional bravery shown, I wonder why there appears never to have been a gallantry award (DFC/AFC) - except SAR - to either a co-pilot or importantly one of the guys or girls down the back. I believe the decision to do away with NCO related awards (DFM/AFM/CGM Flying) in about 1994 has a direct influence on this. On a related subject and again not wishing to detract from the Thread's main topic, the RAF always seems to be very parsimonious in making awards and I know from experience of the system that it does not work as I believed it ought. That is not suggest that we need unfettered dishing out of awards but perhaps a greater realism relative to our army friends.
Congratulations to Flt Lt Gordon DFC.
Old Duffer
PS I think the last 'in enemy action' award to an SH crewman/woman might have been in Gulf War One - 'elementary my dear Watson'!
Last edited by Old-Duffer; 26th Mar 2013 at 06:54.
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Bravery Awards.
I was unaware that awards for N.C.Os were canned in1994.
Who one earth thought that one up. What a disgrace.
However, 30 blokes on one donk under fire. Well done young man.
D.
Who one earth thought that one up. What a disgrace.
However, 30 blokes on one donk under fire. Well done young man.
D.
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The DFM etc was abolished and the DFC etc made available to all ranks.
Flt Lt Pollard was the co-pilot when he earned his DFC and several crewmen have been awarded various commendations and been MiD however it is entirely appropriate that the aircraft captain gets the main award (as long as he buys the crewmen a beer at exchange drinks!).
Well done to Gordo and everyone else on the list.
Flt Lt Pollard was the co-pilot when he earned his DFC and several crewmen have been awarded various commendations and been MiD however it is entirely appropriate that the aircraft captain gets the main award (as long as he buys the crewmen a beer at exchange drinks!).
Well done to Gordo and everyone else on the list.
I see that a USMC Captain was also awarded the DFC in the latest Operational Honours List. Without digging too deeply into this particular case (given that there is no citation or narrative provided in any OS material) can Ppruners give an indication of how widely/frequently has the DFC been awarded to non-Commonwealth aircrew? I passed on to my US colleagues the good news, stating that it was a rarity - but how many US Sp have been awarded similar gallantry awards in modern times?
I was unaware that awards for N.C.Os were canned in1994.
Who one earth thought that one up. What a disgrace.
Who one earth thought that one up. What a disgrace.
Of course, as Chinny Crewman has pointed out, awards for NCOs (and indeed all other ranks) were not "canned". Instead of a receiving a medal (DSM, MM, DFM etc) they are now entitled to the equivalent cross (DSC, MC, DFC etc) which were formerly only awarded to officers and warrant officers. Personally I think it was bit of a shame as I rather liked the designs of the old medals, particularly the DFM and AFM, but I somehow doubt if Flight Sergeant Bloggs standing in front of HM to receive his AFC is wishing he was getting a medal instead of a cross.
I agree with Old Duffer - the RAF does seem very reticent in putting people forward for medals these days. It was not always thus, during WW2 the DFC was the most commonly awarded gallantry medal, with over 20,000 being awarded, far exceeding any other gallantry medal for all three services. Times change!
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 26th Mar 2013 at 11:08.
During WWII, it was fairly common for several members of a crew to be decorated at the conclusion of a tour of - say - bomber ops but with the majority of bomber aircrew probably being NCOs the 20000/6000 DFC/DFM 'split' was biased heavily in favour of the officers. However, as far as 'immediate' awards were concerned ie those awarded for specific acts, it appears possible that the allocation was rather more fairly made but I have no statistics for that.
At the end of GW1, I had a fairly frank exchange of views with quite a senior cove, over the allocation of gallantry awards, where aircrew flying the equivalent of a bomber tour in the face of some pretty hefty AAA, received nothing (I appreciate that there was essentially no airborne threat) but it still wasn't right. My argument about the similarities between 'then and now' cut no ice with him.
Apparently, somewhere deep in the National Archives, there is a paper which explores why certain RAF personnel were awarded the VC but several others, with a remarkably similar profile of operational flying, received 'only' a bar or further bar to their DSO. In my own records, I have details of army personnel cited for the VC who got either an MID or - disgracefully - nothing. In 1942, an RAF officer, cited for a VC, had the recommendation documents marked; 'to be awarded DSO if found to be alive'.
Perhaps the only good things to be said about the way our system works is that few, if any, who don't deserve an award get one but sadly many who do deserve an award, receive nothing.
Old Duffer
At the end of GW1, I had a fairly frank exchange of views with quite a senior cove, over the allocation of gallantry awards, where aircrew flying the equivalent of a bomber tour in the face of some pretty hefty AAA, received nothing (I appreciate that there was essentially no airborne threat) but it still wasn't right. My argument about the similarities between 'then and now' cut no ice with him.
Apparently, somewhere deep in the National Archives, there is a paper which explores why certain RAF personnel were awarded the VC but several others, with a remarkably similar profile of operational flying, received 'only' a bar or further bar to their DSO. In my own records, I have details of army personnel cited for the VC who got either an MID or - disgracefully - nothing. In 1942, an RAF officer, cited for a VC, had the recommendation documents marked; 'to be awarded DSO if found to be alive'.
Perhaps the only good things to be said about the way our system works is that few, if any, who don't deserve an award get one but sadly many who do deserve an award, receive nothing.
Old Duffer
OD,
During the Philippine Insurrection, circa 1898, my Grandfather who was a Private in the US Army, was nominated for the Medal of Honor but wound up receiving the DSC.
He went out under direct enemy fire to retrieve wounded soldiers who had been hit during an ambush and were still lying in the open. He went out three times and dragged the wounded to safety.
If one looks at the MOH Award Citations for that War....if he had been an Officer he would surely have been awarded the MOH.
Gramps said in a letter to his Platoon Leader that he was honored to be nominated but suggested he felt quite safe doing what he had as the Tango's were aiming at him. I know where I got my sense of humor from.
It is not just the RAF that has questionable policies/history re Awards for Gallantry.
During the Philippine Insurrection, circa 1898, my Grandfather who was a Private in the US Army, was nominated for the Medal of Honor but wound up receiving the DSC.
He went out under direct enemy fire to retrieve wounded soldiers who had been hit during an ambush and were still lying in the open. He went out three times and dragged the wounded to safety.
If one looks at the MOH Award Citations for that War....if he had been an Officer he would surely have been awarded the MOH.
Gramps said in a letter to his Platoon Leader that he was honored to be nominated but suggested he felt quite safe doing what he had as the Tango's were aiming at him. I know where I got my sense of humor from.
It is not just the RAF that has questionable policies/history re Awards for Gallantry.
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Uniquely two members of my old TA squadron were awarded the MC on the same Herrick list about five years ago. There was considerable surprise as it was expected that the "ration" would have been one.
Distinguished flying undoubtedly but, as one who used to have all Tri-Service recommendations for Honours and Awards pass across my desk, I must admit to a degree of surprise that a CGC was not considered even more appropriate recognition in the circumstances.
A very large helicopter and very large cojones.
Jack
A very large helicopter and very large cojones.
Jack
Interesting point Jack. I haven't followed all the gazettes carefully since the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross was instituted - have there in fact been any awards to the RAF to date?
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 26th Mar 2013 at 22:46.
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I remembered reading of one and just checked Wiki which I know
doesn't list all but this is the one I was thinking of.
Squadron Leader MacFarlane, Iain James McKechnie, Sierra Leone, 2001
doesn't list all but this is the one I was thinking of.
Squadron Leader MacFarlane, Iain James McKechnie, Sierra Leone, 2001
