Some people finally understand the reality behind drone strikes
DP,
There is no oversight of the entire program back in Washington. That is the point of our argument here. Obama refuses to release anything to the Congress....at least up and until someone leaked a Letter that discussed the Office of Legal Counsel Legal Opinion that formed the Justification Letter. To date...no one outside the White House has seen the actual Justification Letter or they have it has only been in the past two or three days and access was limited to a very few Members of the Intelligence Over Sight Committee.
You worry about the lack of oversight in far off Yemen.....our concern is about the entire program.
Thus, it would appear you have joined those of us who are in favor of all of this being examined by those our system of government says are supposed to be doing that oversight.....the Congress.
As to "Redneck Politics".....this comes pretty close to defining that term.
All About Rednecks
There is no oversight of the entire program back in Washington. That is the point of our argument here. Obama refuses to release anything to the Congress....at least up and until someone leaked a Letter that discussed the Office of Legal Counsel Legal Opinion that formed the Justification Letter. To date...no one outside the White House has seen the actual Justification Letter or they have it has only been in the past two or three days and access was limited to a very few Members of the Intelligence Over Sight Committee.
You worry about the lack of oversight in far off Yemen.....our concern is about the entire program.
Thus, it would appear you have joined those of us who are in favor of all of this being examined by those our system of government says are supposed to be doing that oversight.....the Congress.
As to "Redneck Politics".....this comes pretty close to defining that term.
All About Rednecks
Last edited by SASless; 12th Feb 2013 at 18:04.
our concern is about the entire program
Yemen and Afghanistan are one thing, Pakistan quite another. Your unilateral and unlawful actions in this country have provoked deep resentment from the population at large and may even have undermined the country's fragile leadership. These myopic and incremental military gains may actually end up widening the instability in the region (and bring some bona fide WMDs into play).
Talking of Rednecks, if GWB had ordered these strikes during his term in office, would you have complained so vehemently? Or would you have cut the good ol' boy some slack, let him do what he thunk was right?
How much more clear can one be.....when I post right here for you to read.....several occasions where I said something along the lines of ..."President Obama (or any other President)....".
It does appear you don't read anything you disagree with or you would not be asking the questions you just did.
Either that or you are so prejudiced in your views that nothing said is going to breach that firewall you have against comments anyone who holds even a slightly different view of things than you do.
Just like in discussing Gun Control with a Brit....who cannot grasp the fact UK Law and US Law are very much different...there is no way to penetrate that kind of hard head. Must be the same with this Drone thing.
What is it with you Bush haters.....you still hurting over the way "English Bob" got his ass kicked by the Sheriff?
It does appear you don't read anything you disagree with or you would not be asking the questions you just did.
Either that or you are so prejudiced in your views that nothing said is going to breach that firewall you have against comments anyone who holds even a slightly different view of things than you do.
Just like in discussing Gun Control with a Brit....who cannot grasp the fact UK Law and US Law are very much different...there is no way to penetrate that kind of hard head. Must be the same with this Drone thing.
What is it with you Bush haters.....you still hurting over the way "English Bob" got his ass kicked by the Sheriff?
Last edited by SASless; 12th Feb 2013 at 19:57.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 60
Posts: 664
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Only inasmuch at it impinges on the rights of US citizens.
As this is what the thread seemed to be about. Certainly what it has become about.
Happy to discuss the drone campaign in another thread if you'd like. But for now, I am discussing an American President ordering the state-committed murders of American citizens with no more than a "trust me."
The attempts to bring up and blame Bush seem to be futile as, to the best of my knowledge, he didn't order the killing of Americans via RPAs.
Those Americans who weren't killed while fighting against US or Allied forces seem to have gotten a trial.
Obama, on the other hand, has been trigger happy via Executive Order, against US citizens.
And Europe loves him. Yet the ghost of Bush is resurrected.
Either that or you are so prejudiced in your views that nothing said is going to breach that firewall you have against comments anyone who holds even a slightly different view of things than you do.
Is this 'Europe Loves Obama' a story Fox has been running of late? (I jest). I think its fair to say our love affair with the man is long over, certainly here in the UK. We like you have finally sussed him out - a mouth + trousers ex-lawyer, just like Blair. I'm a firm believer that a country gets the leader it deserves...
Brick,
Of course the Brits are having some of the very same exact concerns and controversy as we are in the USA.
They have been thrashing this around for at least two years while they have doubled the size of their Drone Fleet and have carried out 350 strikes of their own.
Naturally, they don't mention this but I am quite sure it is only because we have been discussing the US Drone Program.
I guess Dead Pan and the others who are so critical of the US program have absolutely no concerns about their own Drone Program or they would have brought them up.
I guess they see no problem with their killing people with their Drones despite having so much problem with our doing so. I guess there is no danger of their strikes causing resentment by those targeted or supporting those who were the targets as the Brits have a very effective PR program to undercut such reactions to the attacks.
Now I know....since I have broached this UK thing....we shall be told how perfect their program works, how they only hit the intended target and never cause collateral killings of innocent people.
I find it very interesting the concerns about lack of over sight should be mentioned in the linked article.....damn where have I heard that recently?
Yet more drone secrets « Drone Wars UK
Of course the Brits are having some of the very same exact concerns and controversy as we are in the USA.
They have been thrashing this around for at least two years while they have doubled the size of their Drone Fleet and have carried out 350 strikes of their own.
Naturally, they don't mention this but I am quite sure it is only because we have been discussing the US Drone Program.
I guess Dead Pan and the others who are so critical of the US program have absolutely no concerns about their own Drone Program or they would have brought them up.
I guess they see no problem with their killing people with their Drones despite having so much problem with our doing so. I guess there is no danger of their strikes causing resentment by those targeted or supporting those who were the targets as the Brits have a very effective PR program to undercut such reactions to the attacks.
Now I know....since I have broached this UK thing....we shall be told how perfect their program works, how they only hit the intended target and never cause collateral killings of innocent people.
I find it very interesting the concerns about lack of over sight should be mentioned in the linked article.....damn where have I heard that recently?
The MoD’s culture of secrecy and its refusal to accept scrutiny and public accountability is another disaster waiting to happen. It is not enough for the MoD to write about the need for public debate and understanding in policy documents on the one hand, and then refuse information to allow such understanding on the other. There is a great deal of public interest in the use of armed drones and the MoD must release information that would allow such debate and understanding to happen.
Yet more drone secrets « Drone Wars UK
Last edited by SASless; 12th Feb 2013 at 20:19.
Oh come on - you're going to have to better than this. Its not exactly the most incisive of investigative journalism:
Perhaps you should heed your own advice and actually read some of the earlier posts on this thread from those who are evidently more closely involved with UK UAV ops:
(my highlights BTW)
For my money a more informed and believable source than some half-ar5ed Wordpress site.
Over the past few years we have seen plenty of examples of the disastrous consequences when certain groups claim the privilege of exemption from scrutiny and accountability - bankers and their profligate ‘sub-prime’ loans policy, MPs and their expenses, being just two that jump to mind
Two's In, you are correct that ROE documents will not see the light of day but the broad principals of UK UAV / RPAS operation are in open forum. In essence the UK operates armed UAVs in an identical manner to manned platforms. Primary mission remains ISTAR with the ability to provide an armed response if required and only when strict conditions are met.
At all times the absolute avoidance of non-combatant deaths is paramount - even if that means dumping the weapon in an empty field if the situation changes mid-flight. 'Courageous Restraint' means our guys on the ground may have to fend for themselves if the correct conditions are not met. The level of scrutiny is incredible.
The UK only conducts live missions above Afghanistan. It does not participate, co-operate or facilitate any other type of operation. UK law means that it cannot participate in any 'kill-chain' that its own RoE would preclude.
At all times the absolute avoidance of non-combatant deaths is paramount - even if that means dumping the weapon in an empty field if the situation changes mid-flight. 'Courageous Restraint' means our guys on the ground may have to fend for themselves if the correct conditions are not met. The level of scrutiny is incredible.
The UK only conducts live missions above Afghanistan. It does not participate, co-operate or facilitate any other type of operation. UK law means that it cannot participate in any 'kill-chain' that its own RoE would preclude.
For my money a more informed and believable source than some half-ar5ed Wordpress site.
So where you doing these 350 hits then DP.....Belfast?
So....the locals really don't know who sent the Hell Fire missile as a wedding party gift then?
Belfast SAS, you are dead nuts on as far as eliminating the opposition by means other than accepted norms of the day. Or perhaps their actions were the accepted norms of the day.
Residents of ole blightymstealing the high ground to pontificate from is a bit disingenuous to say the least.
Residents of ole blightymstealing the high ground to pontificate from is a bit disingenuous to say the least.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: hotels
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From a Bruce Feirstein article ... it's title begins "Mr. July ..." if you are interested in the whole thing.
This is the standard "silver bullet" dilemma that's been with us since the first ICBM went operational.
But there really is no dilemma. Hunt down the enemy and kill him.
But at the same time, I'm reminded of an interview I did in the summer of 1999 with a B-2 Stealth bomber pilot at Whiteman Air Force Base near Knob Noster, Mo.
Noting the seeming invincibility of the B-2, I asked what he thought would be the Air Force's greatest challenge in the future.
Well before the age of drones, the bomber pilot's answer was prescient. "I
worry about antiseptic warfare, when you remove the blood component and can wage war without fear of taking any casualties.
I'm concerned that our leaders won't fully understand the consequences of what they're doing, because what seems cheap and clean is anything but."
Our enemies are real. But so are the moral questions and long-term political implications of drone strikes.
Noting the seeming invincibility of the B-2, I asked what he thought would be the Air Force's greatest challenge in the future.
Well before the age of drones, the bomber pilot's answer was prescient. "I
worry about antiseptic warfare, when you remove the blood component and can wage war without fear of taking any casualties.
I'm concerned that our leaders won't fully understand the consequences of what they're doing, because what seems cheap and clean is anything but."
Our enemies are real. But so are the moral questions and long-term political implications of drone strikes.
But there really is no dilemma. Hunt down the enemy and kill him.
Your unilateral and unlawful actions
That you have bought the line the Paki politicos are selling awards you the "I wear a dunce cap as a fashion statement" prize for the week.
I have a bit of experience in this matter, and in that theater of operations.
There was a huge difference betweeen the extremely tight RoE and restrictions on armed UAV's in play when Musharaffef was in charge, and the significantly looser rules in place since he left. The Pakistani government is complicit in every single UAV strike the US makes in Pakistan, absente one or two that were gross errors along the Afghan border where Pakistani troops got hit, based on the evolving agreements on acceptable use of their airspace. Were old Musharref still in office, we'd not even be having this discussion.
I am not sure how recently you were in theater, dead pan. How much mil/pol work have you done with the Pakistanis?
As to "redneck" politicos, the use of drone strikes in Afghanistan and Pakistan has increased four or five fold since I was in theater back in the first Bush administration. I don't know if one should "blame" President Obama, but it is a signature of recent Democratic Party presidents that use of silver bullets appeals to them. (Mind you, Rummy was of a like mind in his day, working for Bush).
Clinton and his use of high tech yet politically lame cruise missiles, in the 90's, and Obama's continued endorsement, and expansion, of armed UAV's strike me as no mere coincidence.
Some of you folks are talking out your arses, and noisily at that.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 13th Feb 2013 at 20:05.
Tea and Medals all around.....next thing you know some Pentagon Gophers will be picking up Gongs for serving the frigging Tea to the Lawyers monitoring the Drone Program under the reasoning the drones (the people....not the aircraft) were combat essential and gallantly stayed awake while on shift directly due the efforts of the Tea Brigade.
Pentagon creates new medal for cyber, drone wars - Business - Boston.com
Pentagon creates new medal for cyber, drone wars - Business - Boston.com
There was a huge difference betweeen the extremely tight RoE and restrictions on armed UAV's in play when Musharaffef was in charge, and the significantly looser rules in place since he left.
Did I detect a hint in one of your earlier posts that you felt the RoE had be loosened too far? Be honest now.
The Pakistani government is complicit in every single UAV strike the US makes in Pakistan
BTW you didn't answer the unlawful bit.
Interesting comment by the B2 pilot, although UAVs ops are yet another world apart. UAV actions are at the micro level - one missile for one man, or at most a couple of individuals if they happen to be near to each other. At this level intelligence and target identification are absolutely key. UAV operators can only do so much when they are staring down the equivalent of a straw (your words - or something similar - I believe).
Last edited by dead_pan; 13th Feb 2013 at 22:23.
DP,
Careful....you don't want to violate OpSec here......that is always a red hot concern amongst your colleagues who attend this forum.
Careful....you don't want to violate OpSec here......that is always a red hot concern amongst your colleagues who attend this forum.
DP,
Trying to talk sense to Obama is a Fool's Errand as the egotistical SOB just isn't going to listen to anyone that differs with him. That holds true on Foreign and Domestic Policy.
Pew Polls is singing your song now too.
Pakistani Disapproval of U.S. Leadership Soars in 2012
Trying to talk sense to Obama is a Fool's Errand as the egotistical SOB just isn't going to listen to anyone that differs with him. That holds true on Foreign and Domestic Policy.
Pew Polls is singing your song now too.
Pakistani Disapproval of U.S. Leadership Soars in 2012
Last edited by SASless; 14th Feb 2013 at 16:32.