Some people finally understand the reality behind drone strikes
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If an American is engaged in direct combat with American (or Allied) forces, i.e, pulling a trigger, laying an IED, etc, and gets a lead headache, then I'm fine with that.
An American being rocketed riding in a pick-up several hundred miles from any action and it starts to become more difficult if such an action is taken. Intel has been mentioned. Is it correct?
al Alawaki (sp?) is dead. No problem for me personally that he got offed. But did his 16 year old son deserve it?
The implications of an "informed high official" making the decision without due process is a very steep, slippery slope.
Prior to it being done overseas, it hadn't been done.
What's to stop the action from occurring inside the U.S., say along the wide open Southern border? Again, the goal posts get continually moved, so I don't think that outcome is a stretch.
The President is not a judge. He doesn't get the power to execute an American because he says so. Or shouldn't anyway.
If this one is allowed to continue, why can't the next one take it just another step? And so on.
An American being rocketed riding in a pick-up several hundred miles from any action and it starts to become more difficult if such an action is taken. Intel has been mentioned. Is it correct?
al Alawaki (sp?) is dead. No problem for me personally that he got offed. But did his 16 year old son deserve it?
The implications of an "informed high official" making the decision without due process is a very steep, slippery slope.
Prior to it being done overseas, it hadn't been done.
What's to stop the action from occurring inside the U.S., say along the wide open Southern border? Again, the goal posts get continually moved, so I don't think that outcome is a stretch.
The President is not a judge. He doesn't get the power to execute an American because he says so. Or shouldn't anyway.
If this one is allowed to continue, why can't the next one take it just another step? And so on.
Last edited by brickhistory; 7th Feb 2013 at 17:23.
State Run Media....defined.
MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, PBS, NPR, NYT, WaPo, LATimes....for a start.
Fox News (not the Commentary shows) at least ask the questions unlike the State Run Media who guard and protect Obama and the Progressive Agenda.
You folks have the Guardian and BBC who cling very tightly to the Left in your country.
As ya'll may recall.....we had "Slam Dunk!" intelligence on WMD in Iraq.....right?
You want the same people that said that deciding whether to put their Thumb pointing up or down?
That is why the Due Process requirement is in the Bill of Rights folks.
Sometimes we may not like it....but that concept goes to the very core of our Freedom. If we give this up....where does it end?
MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, PBS, NPR, NYT, WaPo, LATimes....for a start.
Fox News (not the Commentary shows) at least ask the questions unlike the State Run Media who guard and protect Obama and the Progressive Agenda.
You folks have the Guardian and BBC who cling very tightly to the Left in your country.
As ya'll may recall.....we had "Slam Dunk!" intelligence on WMD in Iraq.....right?
You want the same people that said that deciding whether to put their Thumb pointing up or down?
That is why the Due Process requirement is in the Bill of Rights folks.
Sometimes we may not like it....but that concept goes to the very core of our Freedom. If we give this up....where does it end?
Last edited by SASless; 7th Feb 2013 at 17:27.
It's impossible. Obama couldn't have ordered an assassination. Executive Order 12333, signed by President Regan in 1981 states that 'No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination'. That's on my web site so it must be true. So it can't have been an assassination.
Unitary action might be a different thing. I should Google that.
Unitary action might be a different thing. I should Google that.
Its a tad depressing that certain our brethren seem to have afforded themselves greater rights and protections purely as a consequence through their birthright. They get lawyered up with their Bill of Rights etc etc, whilst everyone else has to make do frontier law.
S'funny how everthing all seemed fine and dandy right up until the point a few of their countrymen got killed.
S'funny how everthing all seemed fine and dandy right up until the point a few of their countrymen got killed.
Whilst I admire people standing up for their rights, I do also tire of hearing the continuous "it's my rights" bleat. Not necessarily aimed at any comments here, but taken to excess, it starts to look like a lot of people expect so much on a plate.
Yeah, good people shouldn't be killed or tortured, but at the other end of the spectrum Human Rights is becoming a sheild for all sorts of bad guys to abuse.
Discuss.
Yeah, good people shouldn't be killed or tortured, but at the other end of the spectrum Human Rights is becoming a sheild for all sorts of bad guys to abuse.
Discuss.
Having a set of laws that limits government can be awkward at times but I would not want it any other way.
If you read the posts....the angst is over the lack of Due Process....not the objective of whacking Terrorists.
We do have the Death Penalty in most States and under Federal Law as well....so whacking some of our own goes on frequently but only after a Fair Trial and Automatic Appeal to a higher Court.
Do you have the Death Penalty in the UK?
Does your government whack your own if they are considered Terrorists....or does that only happen on Sunday's?
If you read the posts....the angst is over the lack of Due Process....not the objective of whacking Terrorists.
We do have the Death Penalty in most States and under Federal Law as well....so whacking some of our own goes on frequently but only after a Fair Trial and Automatic Appeal to a higher Court.
Do you have the Death Penalty in the UK?
Does your government whack your own if they are considered Terrorists....or does that only happen on Sunday's?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
S'funny how everthing all seemed fine and dandy right up until the point a few of their countrymen got killed.
There were cases, IIRC correctly during WWII, where challenges on the way foreign nationals were treated went all the way up to the Supreme Court. Verdict, non-US citizens have no rights or protection under the Constitution.
However US citizens do, And the courts zealously protect them.
BO and his administration may regret both playing fast and loose with their rights - and talking about it.
This isn't just inditement territory, looked what happened to Nixon, and that just a burglary of a dentist's office.
Last edited by ORAC; 7th Feb 2013 at 18:06.
After Roosevelt ordered the Internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry at the start of WWII....the Supreme Court ruled he was in violation of the law. Roosevelt ignored the Ruling.
Sadly, the Supreme Court does not have the ability to enforce its decisions....the system relies upon the President to ensure the Nation's Laws are enforced.
There is the real stumbling block....when the President thumbs his nose at the court....only the People can force him to obey the law....but that would require the reason for the ignoring of the Court be of sufficient alarm to the People that the Military or some capable force act to remove the President from Office.
We really don't want to go there....as it with Obama being who and what he is....that would the start of the Second American Revolution.
Sadly, the Supreme Court does not have the ability to enforce its decisions....the system relies upon the President to ensure the Nation's Laws are enforced.
There is the real stumbling block....when the President thumbs his nose at the court....only the People can force him to obey the law....but that would require the reason for the ignoring of the Court be of sufficient alarm to the People that the Military or some capable force act to remove the President from Office.
We really don't want to go there....as it with Obama being who and what he is....that would the start of the Second American Revolution.
Does your government whack your own if they are considered Terrorists.
More recently, in 2005 a Brazilian citizen was mistakenly shot dead by police the day after the bombings in London. Suffice to say it provoked a considerable furore in the media and across the political spectrum. I believe he was afforded roughly the same rights in death (independent enquiry, criminal proceedings against the police service involved, public inquest, apology & compensation to the family etc) as a Brit would have in such circumstances.
As in the US there are strict checks and balances here regarding domestic terrorist operations. Unlike the US, its evident we have a higher threshold regarding operations outside our borders, as those more closely involved have already noted on this thread. I also think we are more circumspect in discussing operations (with the possible exception of one of our more famous Apache pilots of Las Vegas fame), and may have better opsec (few if any kill videos from UK forces come to light on Ytube). People can't complain about what they don't know about.
Last edited by dead_pan; 7th Feb 2013 at 21:14.
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Courtney Mil and SASless
How super to see some really meaningful posts from both of you.
The problem I have is that given today's arms technology being so easily available to the bad guys I don't see how really well organised, trained and equipped terrorists can be dealt with by the good guys if said good guys are restricted to trying to bring them to court.
How super to see some really meaningful posts from both of you.
The problem I have is that given today's arms technology being so easily available to the bad guys I don't see how really well organised, trained and equipped terrorists can be dealt with by the good guys if said good guys are restricted to trying to bring them to court.
Last edited by John Farley; 7th Feb 2013 at 21:51.
Points to ponder....the current main issue is the fact the Government is classifying everything to do with the Drone program including the Legal Justification Document that sets forth the Government's recording the Legal basis for them to be able to Kill a US Citizen without Judicial Due Process as required by the Constitution.
After that small hurtle they have to then justify killing anyone else.
Congress has the duty of oversight over the Executive Branch and Military and as the Obama Administration up until last night has steadfastly refused to produce that Document for the review by Congress. The President has the duty to report Presidential Findings that authorize Covert Activities to Congress under the existing Federal Law. It is not voluntary....it is mandatory he do this. He has not and refuses yet today.
The Senate Intelligence Committee held the Confirmation hearing for the new CIA Director today and a great deal of time was spent discussing the Drone program and its legal justification.
The Senators stated that only a select few of the Committee were granted access to the Legal Document and that other supporting documents had not been provided by the Department of Justice despite President Obama's assurance that all documents re the Legal Justification would be provided. So it appears the Obama Administration is still playing games with Congress.
The Nominee said before the committee it is his belief that Prosecution in Court is the best method of handling the Terrorists as it sets a higher moral standard than merely killing them and thus losing advantage of being able to interrogate them for actionable intelligence.
This Drone thing is not a simple issue.
The legal issues alone are quite significant, the image presented to the World by using extra-judicial means to dispatch suspected or known Terrorists causes problems with public opinion and tends to serve as a recruiting incentive to many that would otherwise not take up arms against us.
There are Operational benefits to the Drones but there are down sides to be considered as well.
The World has changed since the Geneva Accords were adopted and technology has allowed us an advantage over Terrorist groups what would otherwise be safe from attack due to their location in safe havens beyond our reach by other more conventional means. As the Terrorists are generally non-state illegal combatants utilizing Law Enforcement procedures and Courts does not tend to be very feasible in every case.
Over the next year or so we shall see a lot of attention to the Drone Program as the current Administration has lost their normal blind support by fellow Democrats....and for sure have little support by the Republicans on certain aspects of the program and absolutely none on how it has refused to cooperate in meeting legal obligations to report to Congress.
That problem is purely Obama's own making along with his Attorney General who remember is in Criminal and Civil Contempt of Congress over his false testimony and refusal to provide documents to Congress dealing with the ATF Fast and Furious Operation that involved the Feral Guvmint running guns to the Mexican Drug Cartels in a program that has resulted in hundreds of dead Mexicans and at least one if not more US Law Enforcement Officers.
After that small hurtle they have to then justify killing anyone else.
Congress has the duty of oversight over the Executive Branch and Military and as the Obama Administration up until last night has steadfastly refused to produce that Document for the review by Congress. The President has the duty to report Presidential Findings that authorize Covert Activities to Congress under the existing Federal Law. It is not voluntary....it is mandatory he do this. He has not and refuses yet today.
The Senate Intelligence Committee held the Confirmation hearing for the new CIA Director today and a great deal of time was spent discussing the Drone program and its legal justification.
The Senators stated that only a select few of the Committee were granted access to the Legal Document and that other supporting documents had not been provided by the Department of Justice despite President Obama's assurance that all documents re the Legal Justification would be provided. So it appears the Obama Administration is still playing games with Congress.
The Nominee said before the committee it is his belief that Prosecution in Court is the best method of handling the Terrorists as it sets a higher moral standard than merely killing them and thus losing advantage of being able to interrogate them for actionable intelligence.
This Drone thing is not a simple issue.
The legal issues alone are quite significant, the image presented to the World by using extra-judicial means to dispatch suspected or known Terrorists causes problems with public opinion and tends to serve as a recruiting incentive to many that would otherwise not take up arms against us.
There are Operational benefits to the Drones but there are down sides to be considered as well.
The World has changed since the Geneva Accords were adopted and technology has allowed us an advantage over Terrorist groups what would otherwise be safe from attack due to their location in safe havens beyond our reach by other more conventional means. As the Terrorists are generally non-state illegal combatants utilizing Law Enforcement procedures and Courts does not tend to be very feasible in every case.
Over the next year or so we shall see a lot of attention to the Drone Program as the current Administration has lost their normal blind support by fellow Democrats....and for sure have little support by the Republicans on certain aspects of the program and absolutely none on how it has refused to cooperate in meeting legal obligations to report to Congress.
That problem is purely Obama's own making along with his Attorney General who remember is in Criminal and Civil Contempt of Congress over his false testimony and refusal to provide documents to Congress dealing with the ATF Fast and Furious Operation that involved the Feral Guvmint running guns to the Mexican Drug Cartels in a program that has resulted in hundreds of dead Mexicans and at least one if not more US Law Enforcement Officers.
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It's not about bringing them to court, it's about BO's administration allegedly contravening the 'Bill of Rights'.
This matters a lot more to our colonial friends, the Bill of Rights is enshrined in the American consciousness - it's what America was built on and it's considered as immutable by most.
This has the potential to open other cupboards with unwelcome contents, Sh!tstorm coming methinks.
This matters a lot more to our colonial friends, the Bill of Rights is enshrined in the American consciousness - it's what America was built on and it's considered as immutable by most.
This has the potential to open other cupboards with unwelcome contents, Sh!tstorm coming methinks.
A former Federal Judge offers his opinion.
A recent Poll shows more than 63% of those polled reject the notion Killing American Citizens by Drone Attack as was done is wrong. As the Obama Administration is forced to provide their Justification issued by the OLC...one which they have Classified and refused to give to Congress or the Public...they are going to look very bad. No one, Liberal or Conservative, likes the idea of a government ignoring the Fifth Amendment protections that require Due Process.
For a guy that is all concerned about Social Justice....Mr. Obama sure doesn't give a **** about it when he gives himself the power to kill Americans, and others as well.
I wonder if the Nobel folks regret granting him the Peace Prize?
President Obama gives himself permission to kill | Fox News
A recent Poll shows more than 63% of those polled reject the notion Killing American Citizens by Drone Attack as was done is wrong. As the Obama Administration is forced to provide their Justification issued by the OLC...one which they have Classified and refused to give to Congress or the Public...they are going to look very bad. No one, Liberal or Conservative, likes the idea of a government ignoring the Fifth Amendment protections that require Due Process.
For a guy that is all concerned about Social Justice....Mr. Obama sure doesn't give a **** about it when he gives himself the power to kill Americans, and others as well.
I wonder if the Nobel folks regret granting him the Peace Prize?
President Obama gives himself permission to kill | Fox News
Last edited by SASless; 8th Feb 2013 at 10:59.
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"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." – Winston Churchill
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." – Winston Churchill
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.
Martin Niemöller
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SASLess wrote "State Run Media....defined.
MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, PBS, NPR, NYT, WaPo, LATimes....for a start".
do you mean the US Govt actually owns these mdia companies, or appoints their boards or their staff or has a secret way (Black Helicopters!!) of orderingthem what to do
Or is it just thatyou don't agree with their opinions?
just curious as your definition seems raving lunacy to the rest of us
MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, PBS, NPR, NYT, WaPo, LATimes....for a start".
do you mean the US Govt actually owns these mdia companies, or appoints their boards or their staff or has a secret way (Black Helicopters!!) of orderingthem what to do
Or is it just thatyou don't agree with their opinions?
just curious as your definition seems raving lunacy to the rest of us
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Well, if you give a kid his high school diploma cum laude at age 12 it's pretty naiive to expect him to carry on working for the next 6 years as though he still had to earn it on merit.
Can't imagine what the Ñobel people were smoking when they came up with that!
Can't imagine what the Ñobel people were smoking when they came up with that!
No...it doesn't matter....not at all.
If you don't mind being who you are killing.
Did we really have to kill the 16 year old Brother of Alwaki?
He was in a remote place in Yemen...was he that much of an "imminent threat" that we needed to drop a Hellfire Missile on his head?
He was an American Citizen and was not granted Due Process as he was entitled to by the Fifth Amendment of the Bill of Rights.
If we ignore the Rules of War....we face prosecution for War Crimes, Murder, and other charges.
So how do we treat the Drone Pilots here....take the view that "Orders are Orders!"?
We are asking the President to prove he is giving Legal Orders....and why should he refuse to show Congress how he came up with the idea that the Fifth Amendment does not apply. Why is that OLC Justification so sensitive that it cannot be published for the entire World to read?
If you are righteous, complying with the Law of the Land, then what have you got to hide?
They know their case will not bear scrutiny and that is why they do not want it examined by the Judicial System.
That should scare the pants off you....as how do you know your name might not pop up on the list someday? You won't know it until you get whacked....as they Feral Guvmint isn't going to tell you, they won't haul you into a Court, they won't advertise their decision.
We elect Presidents....not coronate a King every four years.
If you don't mind being who you are killing.
Did we really have to kill the 16 year old Brother of Alwaki?
He was in a remote place in Yemen...was he that much of an "imminent threat" that we needed to drop a Hellfire Missile on his head?
He was an American Citizen and was not granted Due Process as he was entitled to by the Fifth Amendment of the Bill of Rights.
If we ignore the Rules of War....we face prosecution for War Crimes, Murder, and other charges.
So how do we treat the Drone Pilots here....take the view that "Orders are Orders!"?
We are asking the President to prove he is giving Legal Orders....and why should he refuse to show Congress how he came up with the idea that the Fifth Amendment does not apply. Why is that OLC Justification so sensitive that it cannot be published for the entire World to read?
If you are righteous, complying with the Law of the Land, then what have you got to hide?
They know their case will not bear scrutiny and that is why they do not want it examined by the Judicial System.
That should scare the pants off you....as how do you know your name might not pop up on the list someday? You won't know it until you get whacked....as they Feral Guvmint isn't going to tell you, they won't haul you into a Court, they won't advertise their decision.
We elect Presidents....not coronate a King every four years.