Some people finally understand the reality behind drone strikes
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Sometimes there is no absolute right or wrong
I have no issues with killing people who are planning to kill others (often innocents) if you can't apprehend them
The nature of violence (legal or not) is that innocent people often suffer as well by just being near-by or due to mis-identification
It is a difficult balance and we have to hope that those who have to take the decisions get them right most of the time
I have no issues with killing people who are planning to kill others (often innocents) if you can't apprehend them
The nature of violence (legal or not) is that innocent people often suffer as well by just being near-by or due to mis-identification
It is a difficult balance and we have to hope that those who have to take the decisions get them right most of the time
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often innocents
Who, then, are the "guilty"?
If we use the expression "innocent" in this context we must ipso facto acknowledge that there are also "guilty" parties involved. Who are thy? And since when in history was death in conflict ever restricted to these "guilty"? Equally it implies a value judgement in each death, some deserved it, some didn't. What are those values and who sets them? The Daily Mail perhaps? (I guess the DM at least thinks so...)
Does this really mean "combatants"? Are they "guilty"? Of what? Doing what the politicos made them do? What the Generals ordered? Is the Mess Steward, as a non-combatant - "guilty"? Or merely by belonging to one of the nations/tribes/factions/ideologies involved. Its a strange way of defining innocence and guilt.
Are the wife and kids who support and feed Mohammed Taliban innocent or guilty?
What defines these phrases?
We frequently hear about "innocent women and children" despite both being sometimes used as combatants - but never of "innocent men". Why not? It ain't rational, that's for sure. Perhaps its a gender thing?
War is all-consuming and has nothing whatsoever to do with innocence and guilt, just involvement - and that can be a very loose connection in that if you are just present you are at least peripherally involved. Not necessarily actively or willingly, but still involved by mere proximity, even as a distant onlooker or neighbour.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 10th Feb 2013 at 13:40.
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Just watched Fox News Sunday....Senator John McCain was on as a guest. When asked about the Drone Program and the controversy that is going on about it currently....his view was transfer the CIA's operations to the DOD. He dismissed any idea of creating the FISA type Court that has been offered by some.
Yes...the Republic is at great risk.
John Boy should have retired a long time ago.
Yes...the Republic is at great risk.
John Boy should have retired a long time ago.
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The nature of violence (legal or not) is that innocent people often suffer as well by just being near-by or due to mis-identification
A perfect example of the skewed logic which led you into places like Afghanistan in the first place, and which has led to you leaving having achieved... well... not very much. That's unless you're doing the body count thing again, and I thought the west had learned the futility of using that as your measure of military success back in the 60's.
Much as I disagree with almost everything SASless has ever written, on this subject he's making some very valid points.
A perfect example of the skewed logic which led you into places like Afghanistan in the first place, and which has led to you leaving having achieved... well... not very much. That's unless you're doing the body count thing again, and I thought the west had learned the futility of using that as your measure of military success back in the 60's.
Much as I disagree with almost everything SASless has ever written, on this subject he's making some very valid points.
Susan,
I am quite pleased to see you are coming around to my point of view finally.
Which is it....am I mellowing or are you?
I am quite pleased to see you are coming around to my point of view finally.
Which is it....am I mellowing or are you?
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SASless,
Given the number of posts you upload, you were destined - sooner or later - to offer something incredibly insightful.
Enjoy your moment in the sun.
Given the number of posts you upload, you were destined - sooner or later - to offer something incredibly insightful.
Enjoy your moment in the sun.
@ SASLess:
From the winkle stand: these questions?
Don't you find it a bit odd that he does this?
The number of US citizens killed was 3 wasn't it? 3 citizens who were associating with the enemy - the old expression if you lay down with dogs, don't be surprised when you end up with fleas comes to mind. So in some respects I don't have a massive amount of sympathy for those three. If you would rather them being captured and tried (justice) - how many casualties would have been acceptable to achieve that? Heathrow Harry hit the nail on the head in post 61. So do I find it odd that in a conflict where tens of thousands have been killed that Obama has taken a decision to kill 3 US citizens associating with the bad guys without trial? No.
As to being silent when your side is in office....how about the Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, and the fecking Media in my country....where the hell are they? Remember how they raised hell over AbuGrahib, Gitmo, Water Boarding? You heard anything out them on Obama ordering Killings?
Not locally (Australia). AbuGrahib, Gitmo and waterboarding were three things that would have a direct impact on the soldier in the field and indirectly on the US and western pro US populations. The propaganda effect of radical Muslims using these three incidents as a recruiting tool and or a rallying call cannot be underestimated. Apart from three more bodies in a country already littered with bodies virtually no impact on the US. That's the difference.
Don't accuse me of being hypocritical on this issue as that just isn't true.
Have you considered you may be too close to the situation to make that appraisal dispassionately?
From the winkle stand: these questions?
Don't you find it a bit odd that he does this?
The number of US citizens killed was 3 wasn't it? 3 citizens who were associating with the enemy - the old expression if you lay down with dogs, don't be surprised when you end up with fleas comes to mind. So in some respects I don't have a massive amount of sympathy for those three. If you would rather them being captured and tried (justice) - how many casualties would have been acceptable to achieve that? Heathrow Harry hit the nail on the head in post 61. So do I find it odd that in a conflict where tens of thousands have been killed that Obama has taken a decision to kill 3 US citizens associating with the bad guys without trial? No.
As to being silent when your side is in office....how about the Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, and the fecking Media in my country....where the hell are they? Remember how they raised hell over AbuGrahib, Gitmo, Water Boarding? You heard anything out them on Obama ordering Killings?
Not locally (Australia). AbuGrahib, Gitmo and waterboarding were three things that would have a direct impact on the soldier in the field and indirectly on the US and western pro US populations. The propaganda effect of radical Muslims using these three incidents as a recruiting tool and or a rallying call cannot be underestimated. Apart from three more bodies in a country already littered with bodies virtually no impact on the US. That's the difference.
Don't accuse me of being hypocritical on this issue as that just isn't true.
Have you considered you may be too close to the situation to make that appraisal dispassionately?
These were the questions I was referring to......and pose them as the current Policy of the Obama Administration makes everything about the Drone Program a "Classified" document including the very Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) Justification Letter. Remember the Fifth Amendment that demands Due Process before the Government can deprive a Citizen of property, freedom, or life....and that it applies to every Citizen no matter where in the World he might be. As there is no Judicial Proceeding in the Drone program process beyond a Lawyer acting as a third crew member in the Control Cab, I would suggest there is very real threat to the Constitutional foundation of government if left unchallenged.
When you add the Secrecy that the Obama Administration has applied to this Drone Program and the Killing of US Citizens....and in effect making Obama (or any President) the Accuser, Prosecutor, Judge, Jury, and Executioner and all done in Secret even including the Office of Legal Counsel Legal Justification....why am I wrong to challenge this?
Do you trust your government to that degree?
Should I trust mine?
Should I just ignore the Constitution as it appears Obama is doing?
Do you trust your government to that degree?
Should I trust mine?
Should I just ignore the Constitution as it appears Obama is doing?
Last edited by SASless; 11th Feb 2013 at 01:50.
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We have convinced over one... at BrainyQuote I'm sure this is not what America intended but I'm sure the Muslims see it this way.
i agree...The Islamists are so tolerant of other Religions and strive for compromise with other faiths and seek peaceful ways to resolve any differences with them.
Yeah....sure....like there has been no conflict for the past Thousand or so years with the Muslims so all this current strife is because of the Drones.
How did I fail to see that?
Yeah....sure....like there has been no conflict for the past Thousand or so years with the Muslims so all this current strife is because of the Drones.
How did I fail to see that?
Last edited by SASless; 11th Feb 2013 at 11:36.
We have convinced over one... at BrainyQuote I'm sure this is not what America intended but I'm sure the Muslims see it this way.
There is no reasoning with some people (in all walks of life) so don't expect rational reasoning from them. Its like trying to explain to a PETA activist how lovely bacon is - you're wasting your breath. Its not that you don't explain, but that they are not interested in hearing.
Last edited by GrahamO; 11th Feb 2013 at 11:57.
Back to the real issue.....
Brennan: Due Process Not Necessary to Kill Americans for Potential Future Actions
Brennan: Due Process Not Necessary to Kill Americans for Potential Future Actions
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SaS
The current US Gov't picks and chooses which laws it
will abide by and when.
I sometimes wonder where or even if it will stop.
What's next, taking out fugitives with drones within the US ????
I don't see that as too far fetched based on what is currently
going on.
After all, they are already using drones to try to track
that rogue cop down, lets just say he is in a very remote area,
well armed, the choice is send in people who may get wounded
or killed or pop him with a missile where no one has to go into
harms way ???
Again, I don't see that as too far fetched based on what is
currently going on.
The current US Gov't picks and chooses which laws it
will abide by and when.
I sometimes wonder where or even if it will stop.
What's next, taking out fugitives with drones within the US ????
I don't see that as too far fetched based on what is currently
going on.
After all, they are already using drones to try to track
that rogue cop down, lets just say he is in a very remote area,
well armed, the choice is send in people who may get wounded
or killed or pop him with a missile where no one has to go into
harms way ???
Again, I don't see that as too far fetched based on what is
currently going on.
As I mentioned before....in my State we have an "Outlaw" statute which when used makes the individual made an "Outlaw"....authorizes any citizen to arrest or kill the Outlaw. The two occasions I remember it being used....the "Outlaws" walked into Police Stations and surrendered very politely.
It takes a Court to determine whether that status is to be applied....and if the Court agrees....then the Outlaw becomes an open target to anyone that sees him. The old saying of "Dead or Alive" applies.
It takes a Court to determine whether that status is to be applied....and if the Court agrees....then the Outlaw becomes an open target to anyone that sees him. The old saying of "Dead or Alive" applies.
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As a Brit i find it both amusing and deeply sad that US citizens can get so upset about "one of their own" being killed in this fashion but not give a tinkers cuss about anybody else.
How can they wonder why so many look down on the US and its activities and sometimes rightly or wrongly take violent objection to such, when such contempt for others is routinely displayed?
How can they wonder why so many look down on the US and its activities and sometimes rightly or wrongly take violent objection to such, when such contempt for others is routinely displayed?
What we care about is seeing the Law is complied with....not the end result.
If you care to check it....within the borders of the USA everyone is afforded those same rights no matter the Nationality or Immigration status.
What I find odd is how a supposedly civilized people could not see the importance of the government being required to comply with the law.
We all know one Man's Terrorist is another Man's Freedom Fighter and I can see where that would apply to Drones and other killing done by Governments.
During the Nuremberg Trials....one of our Jurists stated clearly that War Crimes applied to any Nation or Individual who committed them. I suppose the SAS Op in Gibraltar all those years ago could have been one of those acts that gave rise to questions about Process too.
How many extra -Judicial killings were British Forces, Security Organizations, and Police forces involved with in Northern Ireland?
Can we say it is only the US Drone program that has engendered some hard feelings around the World?
People harp about Gitmo.....and conveniently forget the UK's actions along the same line.
If one wishes to argue from the Higher Moral Ground it helps if you are in fact standing upon a Hill and not down in the gutter where you put the other folks.
If you care to check it....within the borders of the USA everyone is afforded those same rights no matter the Nationality or Immigration status.
What I find odd is how a supposedly civilized people could not see the importance of the government being required to comply with the law.
We all know one Man's Terrorist is another Man's Freedom Fighter and I can see where that would apply to Drones and other killing done by Governments.
During the Nuremberg Trials....one of our Jurists stated clearly that War Crimes applied to any Nation or Individual who committed them. I suppose the SAS Op in Gibraltar all those years ago could have been one of those acts that gave rise to questions about Process too.
How many extra -Judicial killings were British Forces, Security Organizations, and Police forces involved with in Northern Ireland?
Can we say it is only the US Drone program that has engendered some hard feelings around the World?
People harp about Gitmo.....and conveniently forget the UK's actions along the same line.
If one wishes to argue from the Higher Moral Ground it helps if you are in fact standing upon a Hill and not down in the gutter where you put the other folks.
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To complain re due process only when the target is a US citizen or is within the borders of the US may seem to be somewhat self indulgent to those non US citizens within the borders of other countries, who through no fault of their own are impacted by US action.
It is not lawful due process being observed that i take issue with. To acknowledge your last, perhaps having "been there done it" as you claim and somewhat suffered the consequences of said actions the British view may offer a useful insight into why displaying a certain distain for others is not healthy.
PS i do like your rather partisan "water boarding is not torture" to justify a lack of similar enthusiastic pursuit of Bush et al.
It is not lawful due process being observed that i take issue with. To acknowledge your last, perhaps having "been there done it" as you claim and somewhat suffered the consequences of said actions the British view may offer a useful insight into why displaying a certain distain for others is not healthy.
PS i do like your rather partisan "water boarding is not torture" to justify a lack of similar enthusiastic pursuit of Bush et al.
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Sasless
Your country an mine are both firmly in the gutter. I think we call it the special relationship
There are sad things, funny things and ironies on both sides.
Is it funny or sad that many of the folks on your side of the water who are desperate for the rule of law to prevail are the very same folks who funded The IRA for at least two decades..........so they could murder police, soldiers and civilians as democracy wasn't in their favour!
I wonder how many of the same people also believed the Brits 'invaded' the Falklands in '82' and that the Falklanders all spoke Spanish.
Although I believe you to not be in the above group, I do feel it took 911 to make many Americans wake up to reality (the last of the IRA support dried up at this point), and now for various reasons you have 'upset' folks from my side of the pond trying to to kill folks on your side (and mine).
Your country an mine are both firmly in the gutter. I think we call it the special relationship
There are sad things, funny things and ironies on both sides.
Is it funny or sad that many of the folks on your side of the water who are desperate for the rule of law to prevail are the very same folks who funded The IRA for at least two decades..........so they could murder police, soldiers and civilians as democracy wasn't in their favour!
I wonder how many of the same people also believed the Brits 'invaded' the Falklands in '82' and that the Falklanders all spoke Spanish.
Although I believe you to not be in the above group, I do feel it took 911 to make many Americans wake up to reality (the last of the IRA support dried up at this point), and now for various reasons you have 'upset' folks from my side of the pond trying to to kill folks on your side (and mine).
As Water Boarding does not result in permanent injury, physical injury, or damage to limbs, eyes, or internal organs....I see it falling short of Torture. I also have stated clearly that I would use standard interrogation methods rather than harsh methods.
An example, my Mate who supervised DOD Investigators in Gitmo, related an account of observing a pair of Interrogators telling a hard core Al Qaeda Terrorist...."I am your worst nightmare!". Now recall, the Terrorist had been fighting against Coalition Troops for years, had lived in absolute squalor, hidden in Caves, walked all over the desert and mountains of Afghanistan, endured bombings, being hunted by Drones, Apaches, AC-130's, the CIA, SpecOps forces, and opposing local forces. The Terrorist knew the limits the Gitmo staff could go to, had been trained in coping with interrogations, stress positions, loss of sleep and all that.
That Interrogator really thought he was the guy's worst nightmare?
Don't waste your time with the "Ya'll supported the IRA!" horse ****. In Boston and places like that it happened....just as it did in most anywhere there was a strong Irish Community around the World. That your side was supporting the other side seems not an issue to you so lets move on to the issues at hand. You also recall we made it illegal to do so and prosecuted those that got caught. The law was slow in changing and the prosecutions may not have been as we would have liked....but the law did change. It changed before 9-11 as I seem to recall.
I know I did reporting on anything to do with the IRA when I worked for the Government as it was on our list of interests. You also have to recall the entire US Government was very negligent in understanding the potential Terrorist organizations had right on up to 911 which was a great shock to almost every Intelligence and Law Enforcement Agency in the country.
It took 9-11 to wake us up.
Think back over all the attacks we had suffered and how pitiful our response was to those that had attacked us.
The IRA sadly was just another group that was not targeting US interests and thus had a lower priority than some others.
I absolutely agree about the downsides to the killing of people and the public opinion damage it can do. I also suggest that is a false premise as well....to the extent we have to apply the same standard to the Terrorists, Islamists, and others who butcher innocents as a method of furthering their goals.
At least we do attempt to target the Terrorists and not the Innocent. That innocent people get killed is just a sad reality of warfare. We cannot ever eliminate that from happening.
Again, if you want to point fingers about killing the innocent....remember Bloody Sunday then tell me about how the collective British hands are clean.
When you try for a Tit for Tat small minded fight....nothing gets accomplished....which pretty much sums up the current war on Terrorism. They hit us....we hit them....they hit us again....we hit them again.
Perhaps we can all agree the current strategy just isn't working for any number of reason.
You have any better ideas on how to do it....and end the World of the scourge of Islamic Terrorism?
A quick aside....read the news about the killing of Medical Aid workers in Nigeria? People working to end Polio in Northern Nigeria being murdered by radical Islamists with ties to other Terrorist groups to include Al Qaeda.
How do you deal with that.....group hugs and a chorus of Kumbaya?
An example, my Mate who supervised DOD Investigators in Gitmo, related an account of observing a pair of Interrogators telling a hard core Al Qaeda Terrorist...."I am your worst nightmare!". Now recall, the Terrorist had been fighting against Coalition Troops for years, had lived in absolute squalor, hidden in Caves, walked all over the desert and mountains of Afghanistan, endured bombings, being hunted by Drones, Apaches, AC-130's, the CIA, SpecOps forces, and opposing local forces. The Terrorist knew the limits the Gitmo staff could go to, had been trained in coping with interrogations, stress positions, loss of sleep and all that.
That Interrogator really thought he was the guy's worst nightmare?
Don't waste your time with the "Ya'll supported the IRA!" horse ****. In Boston and places like that it happened....just as it did in most anywhere there was a strong Irish Community around the World. That your side was supporting the other side seems not an issue to you so lets move on to the issues at hand. You also recall we made it illegal to do so and prosecuted those that got caught. The law was slow in changing and the prosecutions may not have been as we would have liked....but the law did change. It changed before 9-11 as I seem to recall.
I know I did reporting on anything to do with the IRA when I worked for the Government as it was on our list of interests. You also have to recall the entire US Government was very negligent in understanding the potential Terrorist organizations had right on up to 911 which was a great shock to almost every Intelligence and Law Enforcement Agency in the country.
It took 9-11 to wake us up.
Think back over all the attacks we had suffered and how pitiful our response was to those that had attacked us.
The IRA sadly was just another group that was not targeting US interests and thus had a lower priority than some others.
I absolutely agree about the downsides to the killing of people and the public opinion damage it can do. I also suggest that is a false premise as well....to the extent we have to apply the same standard to the Terrorists, Islamists, and others who butcher innocents as a method of furthering their goals.
At least we do attempt to target the Terrorists and not the Innocent. That innocent people get killed is just a sad reality of warfare. We cannot ever eliminate that from happening.
Again, if you want to point fingers about killing the innocent....remember Bloody Sunday then tell me about how the collective British hands are clean.
When you try for a Tit for Tat small minded fight....nothing gets accomplished....which pretty much sums up the current war on Terrorism. They hit us....we hit them....they hit us again....we hit them again.
Perhaps we can all agree the current strategy just isn't working for any number of reason.
You have any better ideas on how to do it....and end the World of the scourge of Islamic Terrorism?
A quick aside....read the news about the killing of Medical Aid workers in Nigeria? People working to end Polio in Northern Nigeria being murdered by radical Islamists with ties to other Terrorist groups to include Al Qaeda.
How do you deal with that.....group hugs and a chorus of Kumbaya?