Exploitation of Nazi Aerospace Technology by Britain
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GW may offer more scope for fresh work than do aircraft, which have been widely discussed. EE “closely modelled” Thunderbird I gyro on V2’s A.R.Adams, Good Company, BAC, 76, P142. Start with S.R.Twigge, Early Devt of GW in UK,1940-60, Harwood, 1993, and go to RAF Museum/Cosford which has much to show.
Thread Starter
LJ
Oh, dear - you shouldn't have gone there - Kammler's UFO - apparently based on spinning Mercury at high speed causing it to create 'levitational fields'
The idea was dreamt up in the 1990s by a Czech writer (successful publisher in spite of being widely discredited), and conflated with some experimental flying wing designs.
Thanks for the various links, which I shall pass on. Unfortunately RAE archives at TNA are a bit 'gappy' due to numerous reorganisations, the formation of DERA and then Qinetic, many records were lost or destroyed.
Guided Weapons seems to be a bit more fruitful...
Oh, dear - you shouldn't have gone there - Kammler's UFO - apparently based on spinning Mercury at high speed causing it to create 'levitational fields'
The idea was dreamt up in the 1990s by a Czech writer (successful publisher in spite of being widely discredited), and conflated with some experimental flying wing designs.
Thanks for the various links, which I shall pass on. Unfortunately RAE archives at TNA are a bit 'gappy' due to numerous reorganisations, the formation of DERA and then Qinetic, many records were lost or destroyed.
Guided Weapons seems to be a bit more fruitful...
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 23rd Jan 2013 at 10:14.
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As someone mentioned, Op SURGEON was the UK codename for the UK's exploitation of German scientists in this area. If you look it up on the world's favourite internet encyclopaedia there is a short article about it. One of the sources in the further reading is a paper written by Prof Matt Uttley:
Matt was the Dean of King's College at JSCSC Shrivenham, so if you have access to him or Shriv you can get hold of the article without paying for it. I'm sure his bibliography would provide a huge amount of other sources, unlike mine when I was at College which was just an exercise in listing vaguely related books that served to eat up the necessary word count!
Roger D
Matthew Uttley "Operation 'Surgeon' and Britain's post-war exploitation of Nazi German aeronautics", Intelligence and National Security, Volume 17, Number 2, June 2002, pp. 1-26(26) Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group
Roger D
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Sorry - I posted about Luft46 when I was on the fly and should have taken the time to add that perhaps the site's originators could maybe help.
Eric 'Winkle' Brown wrote 'Wings of the Luftwaffe', which details his post-War experiences of flying many types. Worth a look.
Eric 'Winkle' Brown wrote 'Wings of the Luftwaffe', which details his post-War experiences of flying many types. Worth a look.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the useful posts - I have managed to get a fund of information, although the paper produced by Matt Uttley is particularly useful:
Matthew Uttley (2002): Operation ‘Surgeon’ and Britain's post-war
exploitation of Nazi German aeronautics, Intelligence and National Security, 17:2, 1-26
Now separately, I discovered a Messerschmitt Me 262 Performance report on Feb 1945 (provided from a private archive) - on how to mod/upgrade the exisiting platform. I've never seen reference to this proposed mod '5 Zustand' - and I have to say, what a smart aircraft. It proposes using the existing fuselage ('Rumpf') but upgrading the engine installation to wing-root mounted HeS 011a, uses a dramatic 45 deg swept wing, and suggests a V tail as an alternative. Calculations and wind-tunnel information suggests 120 km/hr improvement over all altitudes, peaking out at M.92 at 6,000 m. I've tried posting it here - for some reason it won't upload the format. Has anyone ever heard of this variant before?
Matthew Uttley (2002): Operation ‘Surgeon’ and Britain's post-war
exploitation of Nazi German aeronautics, Intelligence and National Security, 17:2, 1-26
Now separately, I discovered a Messerschmitt Me 262 Performance report on Feb 1945 (provided from a private archive) - on how to mod/upgrade the exisiting platform. I've never seen reference to this proposed mod '5 Zustand' - and I have to say, what a smart aircraft. It proposes using the existing fuselage ('Rumpf') but upgrading the engine installation to wing-root mounted HeS 011a, uses a dramatic 45 deg swept wing, and suggests a V tail as an alternative. Calculations and wind-tunnel information suggests 120 km/hr improvement over all altitudes, peaking out at M.92 at 6,000 m. I've tried posting it here - for some reason it won't upload the format. Has anyone ever heard of this variant before?
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 1st Feb 2013 at 13:41.
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ME 262 Dokuments
Last edited by hval; 1st Feb 2013 at 19:02.
Read Jane's Nick Cook's The Hunt for Zero one and mentioned is one Hans Kammler, one of the most camera shy Nazi who started off as a mere (aeronautical?) engineer grad working menial tasks in their Ministry of Works or Labor and rose up the ladder.
The Skoda motor works got involved in whatever secret aerospace projects Kammler was looking at. Also the allied 'T' Forces discovered list as long as your arm with futuristic projects (at the time) either in the planning or experimentation stage found such as lasers to shoot down aircraft, devices to stop enemy vehicles engines from a distance, amongst others.
Nick Cook had gone to Wenceleas Mine in Poland and whatever its called , and discovered what could have been remains of a strange structure that could imply either what was a nuclear reactor or housing / test platform for a saucer shape craft.
Ah its friday night must stop reading too much and head down the pub
The Skoda motor works got involved in whatever secret aerospace projects Kammler was looking at. Also the allied 'T' Forces discovered list as long as your arm with futuristic projects (at the time) either in the planning or experimentation stage found such as lasers to shoot down aircraft, devices to stop enemy vehicles engines from a distance, amongst others.
Nick Cook had gone to Wenceleas Mine in Poland and whatever its called , and discovered what could have been remains of a strange structure that could imply either what was a nuclear reactor or housing / test platform for a saucer shape craft.
Ah its friday night must stop reading too much and head down the pub
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Chopper. It's 'The Hunt for Zero point'.
If you want to waste 90 minutes in a similar vein, watch 'Billion dollar secret ' (also by Nick Cook) on Youtube.
It's 100% drivel and quite tainted my previos enjoyment of his book.
The book makes him sound like a knowledgable resercher.
The film like a blithering idiot.
If you want to waste 90 minutes in a similar vein, watch 'Billion dollar secret ' (also by Nick Cook) on Youtube.
It's 100% drivel and quite tainted my previos enjoyment of his book.
The book makes him sound like a knowledgable resercher.
The film like a blithering idiot.
Last edited by AtomKraft; 1st Feb 2013 at 19:42.
I stopped reading "the hunt for zero point" when started going on about a mysterious "henge" that no one had ever seen the like of before...
Last edited by iRaven; 1st Feb 2013 at 22:46.
Apart from those that had targets in Eastern Europe to memorise and they looked very familiar!
It's the concrete base structure of a bl00dy cooling tower at a power station. Nazi/alien technology structure - my arse!
It's the concrete base structure of a bl00dy cooling tower at a power station. Nazi/alien technology structure - my arse!
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iRaven
Well, you did better than me. I lapped up 'The Hunt for Zero point' with nary a murmer, although there are some quite nutty bits in it. (The stuff about anti-gravity engines powering the B-2 raised an eyebrow, for example).
I only tumbled what a nut he was when I saw 'Billion Dollar Secret' which manages to spend 90 minutes padding out large periods of nutty speculation. To be fair theres a couple of interesting nuggets in it- but precisely NOTHING new.
I suppose I must have swallowed some of it as I'm still intrigued by the idea of gravity being lowered above spinning superconductors or by the chapter on Viktor Schauberger.
The stuff on the 'Hutcheson effect' was intersting too, but I now wonder if it's all being 'puffed up' by Mr. Cooks overactive imagination.
It would be nice to know the veracity of some of the content...
Well, you did better than me. I lapped up 'The Hunt for Zero point' with nary a murmer, although there are some quite nutty bits in it. (The stuff about anti-gravity engines powering the B-2 raised an eyebrow, for example).
I only tumbled what a nut he was when I saw 'Billion Dollar Secret' which manages to spend 90 minutes padding out large periods of nutty speculation. To be fair theres a couple of interesting nuggets in it- but precisely NOTHING new.
I suppose I must have swallowed some of it as I'm still intrigued by the idea of gravity being lowered above spinning superconductors or by the chapter on Viktor Schauberger.
The stuff on the 'Hutcheson effect' was intersting too, but I now wonder if it's all being 'puffed up' by Mr. Cooks overactive imagination.
It would be nice to know the veracity of some of the content...
Nope its all bunkum as far I'm concerned. The "henge" above was supposed to contain this mythical "Bell" Nazi weapon - but it most definately is the base of a cooling tower!
The book is full of conspiracy theory just like other theories:
- Faked Apollo moon landings
- Nazi bases in Antartica
- Missing U-boats taking Hitler away
- Manchurian candidates and the Catcher in the Rye
The only thing that I do believe in is that of "Occam's Razor" - ie. normally, the simplest explanations are what they really are! Just like my cooling tower base!
iRaven
The book is full of conspiracy theory just like other theories:
- Faked Apollo moon landings
- Nazi bases in Antartica
- Missing U-boats taking Hitler away
- Manchurian candidates and the Catcher in the Rye
The only thing that I do believe in is that of "Occam's Razor" - ie. normally, the simplest explanations are what they really are! Just like my cooling tower base!
iRaven
Have you not considered, iRaven, that the henge might simply have been pressed into service as the base for a cooling tower, either to disguise it or because the East Germans thought 'Ach, ve do not know vat ziss iss, but - if Archimedes will stop the comedy attempt at writing out our accents- we will make use of this remarkably convenient structure which is just the right size and in just the right place'?
And might I respectfully suggest that if you haven't considered that possibility, you haven't drunk enough?
And might I respectfully suggest that if you haven't considered that possibility, you haven't drunk enough?
Thread Starter
Oh dear, as I warned before - don't open the Kammler Box - it will let out all the Holocaust deniers, Nazi supremacists, conspiracy theorist....the works!
Kammler was a particularly unsavoury character. Yes, he was an Engineer – indeed had a PhD – but typified the brutally efficient bureaucrat that permitted Endloessung - the ‘Final Disposition (Solution)’ to be carried out. He oversaw the V2 barrage and in Dec 45 he was put in charge, inter alia, of fighter production, which was basically ‘make more Me 262s’. Goering, during his interrogation, made no reference to Kammler, but did elude the fanciful production figures of c 3000 Me 262s per month!
According to Werner von Braun, when interrogated by US CIC in Garmisch in May 1945 (now the site of the George Marshall Centre for Security Studies), Kammler indicated that he was going to disguise himself as a Benedictine month (from nearby Ettallerkloster) and make his escape and meet up with SS elements near Prague. There are reports that he was killed near Prague or took his own life; suffice to say, in spite of his role in designing Auschwitz, heading the strategic weapons programme etc, he was never actively sought after WWII by any party, because he was dead. Ends.
The Henge and Bell stories emerged out of febrile imagination of a demented Czech writer in the 1990s, along with the bonkers stories about NAZIs in Antarctica. So much complete and utter tripe has been written (and continues to be circulated about the latter subject) that the Scott Polar Research Institute published a paper in 2006 convincingly debunking this nonsense. But they would say that, wouldn’t they?
Summerhayes & Beeching (2006):’Hitler’s Antarctic base: the myth and the reality’ in Polar Record 43 (224): 1-21 (2007).I
Back to the image of a rather nice-looking Me 262 (and thanks to Hval for finding a link - scroll down):
Herbert Thiess : Unterirdische Fluzeugfabrik Oberammergau : Me 262 Leistungssteigerung
Kammler was a particularly unsavoury character. Yes, he was an Engineer – indeed had a PhD – but typified the brutally efficient bureaucrat that permitted Endloessung - the ‘Final Disposition (Solution)’ to be carried out. He oversaw the V2 barrage and in Dec 45 he was put in charge, inter alia, of fighter production, which was basically ‘make more Me 262s’. Goering, during his interrogation, made no reference to Kammler, but did elude the fanciful production figures of c 3000 Me 262s per month!
According to Werner von Braun, when interrogated by US CIC in Garmisch in May 1945 (now the site of the George Marshall Centre for Security Studies), Kammler indicated that he was going to disguise himself as a Benedictine month (from nearby Ettallerkloster) and make his escape and meet up with SS elements near Prague. There are reports that he was killed near Prague or took his own life; suffice to say, in spite of his role in designing Auschwitz, heading the strategic weapons programme etc, he was never actively sought after WWII by any party, because he was dead. Ends.
The Henge and Bell stories emerged out of febrile imagination of a demented Czech writer in the 1990s, along with the bonkers stories about NAZIs in Antarctica. So much complete and utter tripe has been written (and continues to be circulated about the latter subject) that the Scott Polar Research Institute published a paper in 2006 convincingly debunking this nonsense. But they would say that, wouldn’t they?
Summerhayes & Beeching (2006):’Hitler’s Antarctic base: the myth and the reality’ in Polar Record 43 (224): 1-21 (2007).I
Back to the image of a rather nice-looking Me 262 (and thanks to Hval for finding a link - scroll down):
Herbert Thiess : Unterirdische Fluzeugfabrik Oberammergau : Me 262 Leistungssteigerung
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 3rd Feb 2013 at 08:11.
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Of course German aerospace engineering skills had been exploited by Britain as much as by Americans after the war..
http://www.artefactsconsortium.org/P...ank5,6WEBF.pdf
Royal Aeronautical Society | Society News | OBITUARY - DR JOHANNA WEBER
Johanna Weber was a mathematician who, over a period of 36 years, in collaboration with her colleague and contemporary, Dietrich Küchemann, laid the foundations for the world-leading position that the UK now enjoys in the aerodynamic design of civil aircraft wings. In turn, this wing design capability has contributed to the rise of Airbus to stand beside Boeing as one of the world’s two dominant manufacturers of civil aircraft, with the consequent benefit to the European industry and economy. Many others have played their part in this success but, without the combination of Küchemann’s vision and Weber’s mathematical prowess, the advances in UK design capability between the 1940s and 1970s would probably not have occurred
says the Royal Aeronautical Society..
http://www.artefactsconsortium.org/P...ank5,6WEBF.pdf
Royal Aeronautical Society | Society News | OBITUARY - DR JOHANNA WEBER
Johanna Weber was a mathematician who, over a period of 36 years, in collaboration with her colleague and contemporary, Dietrich Küchemann, laid the foundations for the world-leading position that the UK now enjoys in the aerodynamic design of civil aircraft wings. In turn, this wing design capability has contributed to the rise of Airbus to stand beside Boeing as one of the world’s two dominant manufacturers of civil aircraft, with the consequent benefit to the European industry and economy. Many others have played their part in this success but, without the combination of Küchemann’s vision and Weber’s mathematical prowess, the advances in UK design capability between the 1940s and 1970s would probably not have occurred
says the Royal Aeronautical Society..
