Vulcans Falkland Raid
Pontius - think you missed the inference there - I think they were referring to the Royal Navy as the "South African" navy due to it maintaining a position "well to the east of the FI"
Pasir,
Argentine deception techniques made the Black Buck 1 crater appear larger for photo-recce Harrier runs. Simple mud and earth ring on the runway gave the impression that the runway had suffered greater damage.
This crater caused problems with UK forces after the Argentine surrender. RAF News, April 26th 2002, has a piece from retired Air Commodore John Davis. Davis was the first commander of the operations wing at RAF Stanley. In relation to the runway crater from the first Black Buck mission Davis wrote "This rogue crater required a succession of repairs amid what soon became high intensity air operations."
The damage restricted the Argentine air operations and types used. The C-130s continued to use the runway. Other transport types that had been used prior to Black Buck 1, such as the Fokker F.28 Fellowship, were withdrawn from use at Stanley according to the following.
ARIES 82, el transporte de la FAA en el Conflicto del Atlántico Sur
Argentine deception techniques made the Black Buck 1 crater appear larger for photo-recce Harrier runs. Simple mud and earth ring on the runway gave the impression that the runway had suffered greater damage.
This crater caused problems with UK forces after the Argentine surrender. RAF News, April 26th 2002, has a piece from retired Air Commodore John Davis. Davis was the first commander of the operations wing at RAF Stanley. In relation to the runway crater from the first Black Buck mission Davis wrote "This rogue crater required a succession of repairs amid what soon became high intensity air operations."
The damage restricted the Argentine air operations and types used. The C-130s continued to use the runway. Other transport types that had been used prior to Black Buck 1, such as the Fokker F.28 Fellowship, were withdrawn from use at Stanley according to the following.
ARIES 82, el transporte de la FAA en el Conflicto del Atlántico Sur
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One Vulcan....one time...and one bomb hit on the runway and Gongs all around.
Wow....Golly....Gee Whiz!
Not taking away from the crews who stuck their necks way out to accomplish this but when considered from a realistic point of view....the mission did not accomplish much no matter how one tries to argue it.
Some Harriers used properly could have done much more damage and on a more frequent basis.....perhaps at more risk.
What success the raid had to preventing the Argies from using the runway is more due to the Argies than to the Raid itself. Had they wanted to use the runway....it could have been made right within days if not hours....had they been prepared to do so.
If one studies the timeline of the War....there are probably other factors that caused the Argies to do what they did that were more influential than the Vulcan attack.
Wow....Golly....Gee Whiz!
Not taking away from the crews who stuck their necks way out to accomplish this but when considered from a realistic point of view....the mission did not accomplish much no matter how one tries to argue it.
Some Harriers used properly could have done much more damage and on a more frequent basis.....perhaps at more risk.
What success the raid had to preventing the Argies from using the runway is more due to the Argies than to the Raid itself. Had they wanted to use the runway....it could have been made right within days if not hours....had they been prepared to do so.
If one studies the timeline of the War....there are probably other factors that caused the Argies to do what they did that were more influential than the Vulcan attack.
I know....you are quite right......bombing was designed to break the will of the people.....as it did in Britain and Germany during WWII....right?
Just as Bombing was supposed to make land warfare obsolete....and win Wars all by itself....right?
Spare me the insults.....this one raid by one aircraft is being made out to be the most significant event during the whole Falkland War. It is not.
I suggest the RN did much to affect the outcome by the sinking of the Cruiser....and much more than just the one raid.
I also suggest the VC's won by the ground troops....and all those Men that get scant mention despite their great individual contributions deserve some credit too.
Perhaps you might put this one raid into perspective by thinking of the Soldiers and Marines who fixed bayonets and went up hills and mountains to defeat the enemy against great odds.
Use some commonsense.....you reckon the Argies could not figure out the capability the RAF had to do bombing attacks on the Main Land....and know they would be weak and ineffective? The RN was far more a threat with its Submarines than the RAF was with its bomber force if it came to full fledged War instead of a campaign to re-take the Falklands.
You make too much of the effect of bombing.....most Air Forces do....unless we are taking about CAS. Then we have to remind ourselves the Air Force is supporting the Ground Forces and not the other way around.
Compare what the RN and RAF Harriers did compared to the single Vulcan attack....and keep telling me how great the Black Buck Raid was in its contribution to the War overall.
If the RAF had the capability of conducting raids on the Main Land....it probably would have....but you did not. That is the one thing the Black Buck raid was very successful at. It proved to the RAF it did not have the Tanker Assets or Base infrastructure to mount a sustained Bomber Campaign against the Argies......and you know it!
Argie unpreparedness is not an RAF victory except by default maybe.
For your consideration and critique.....as I know nothing of the author.
Did one of the follow on Vulcan crew's actually forget to arm their load of bombs as reported in the linked reference thus making 21 rather small but deep holes in the ground?
Sharkey's World: Black Buck - The Truth of the Matter
Just as Bombing was supposed to make land warfare obsolete....and win Wars all by itself....right?
Spare me the insults.....this one raid by one aircraft is being made out to be the most significant event during the whole Falkland War. It is not.
I suggest the RN did much to affect the outcome by the sinking of the Cruiser....and much more than just the one raid.
I also suggest the VC's won by the ground troops....and all those Men that get scant mention despite their great individual contributions deserve some credit too.
Perhaps you might put this one raid into perspective by thinking of the Soldiers and Marines who fixed bayonets and went up hills and mountains to defeat the enemy against great odds.
Use some commonsense.....you reckon the Argies could not figure out the capability the RAF had to do bombing attacks on the Main Land....and know they would be weak and ineffective? The RN was far more a threat with its Submarines than the RAF was with its bomber force if it came to full fledged War instead of a campaign to re-take the Falklands.
You make too much of the effect of bombing.....most Air Forces do....unless we are taking about CAS. Then we have to remind ourselves the Air Force is supporting the Ground Forces and not the other way around.
Compare what the RN and RAF Harriers did compared to the single Vulcan attack....and keep telling me how great the Black Buck Raid was in its contribution to the War overall.
If the RAF had the capability of conducting raids on the Main Land....it probably would have....but you did not. That is the one thing the Black Buck raid was very successful at. It proved to the RAF it did not have the Tanker Assets or Base infrastructure to mount a sustained Bomber Campaign against the Argies......and you know it!
Argie unpreparedness is not an RAF victory except by default maybe.
For your consideration and critique.....as I know nothing of the author.
Did one of the follow on Vulcan crew's actually forget to arm their load of bombs as reported in the linked reference thus making 21 rather small but deep holes in the ground?
Sharkey's World: Black Buck - The Truth of the Matter
Last edited by SASless; 6th Jan 2013 at 14:11.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
T asless, I suggest you read the earlier thread with comments by the SAM Battery Commander who was on the spot. Also by an informed Argentinian author.
The point about terror bombing is fear itself. As you suggest, the actuality becomes quite humdrum. In the case of the Argentine mainland the civil populace had NOT experienced any bombing raid of any kind. Had the mainland been raided then they would have seen how relatively unaffected the majority of the population would have been.
The videos of Shock and Awe show that.
Once raids take place then history shows that the resolve of the civilian populace hardens not weakens.
The point about terror bombing is fear itself. As you suggest, the actuality becomes quite humdrum. In the case of the Argentine mainland the civil populace had NOT experienced any bombing raid of any kind. Had the mainland been raided then they would have seen how relatively unaffected the majority of the population would have been.
The videos of Shock and Awe show that.
Once raids take place then history shows that the resolve of the civilian populace hardens not weakens.
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SASless. It would be great if you could point out exactly where anyone has suggested that the RAF won the Falkland War with a single Vulcan raid whilst also suggesting that ground war was a just a bit of a side show.
I doubt you will, because no one has suggested that. You're just being a b*llend for the sake of it.
The fact the some marines were brave doesn't mean that Black Buck didn't have any impact. It just sophistry from someone who would rather swallow razor blades than admit that an Air Force might have contributed something not in support of the Army or Navy. It really puzzles me.
And a victory by default is still a victory. Winning with style is great, but winning is winning is winning. I'd love to hear your argument against that...
I doubt you will, because no one has suggested that. You're just being a b*llend for the sake of it.
The fact the some marines were brave doesn't mean that Black Buck didn't have any impact. It just sophistry from someone who would rather swallow razor blades than admit that an Air Force might have contributed something not in support of the Army or Navy. It really puzzles me.
And a victory by default is still a victory. Winning with style is great, but winning is winning is winning. I'd love to hear your argument against that...
If the RAF had hit the Main Land....the most effective result would have been "political"....as the whole "Malvinas" thing was a construct by Gallateri to divert attention away from his regime's failures. He sought to capitalize on the "Nationalistic Spirit" of the People by kicking off what he had hoped would be a quick Diplomatic surrender by the Brits.
He miscalculated on several levels....starting with Miss Maggie and more importantly....the British Army, Royal Navy, Marines, and Air Force.
I submit....the Black Buck Raids should have been targeted at the Main Land....as it would have had much greater effect in altering the Argies strategy and deployment of forces.
He miscalculated on several levels....starting with Miss Maggie and more importantly....the British Army, Royal Navy, Marines, and Air Force.
I submit....the Black Buck Raids should have been targeted at the Main Land....as it would have had much greater effect in altering the Argies strategy and deployment of forces.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
We had no wish to escalate what was a small territorial dispute. I presume you would have targeted the leadership in Bagdad on the same principle?
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The discussion of how best to attack the runway needs some qualified input. The angle selected was to deny minimum clear width for operational use by fast jets and that was a straightforward geometric solution determined by stick spacing at the minimum permitted release interval for the weapon and aircraft.
In the case of the Vulcans' first raid it was unfortunate that the along track error was so great that only the first bomb in the stick hit the far side of the runway but it did do considerable damage as has already been mentioned.
One should not detract from the skills and determination involved in this mission even though the runway was not cut as hoped - it was always calculated that the over target requirement to achieve a high probability of success was way more than the resources available. Just be content that an effort was made using equipment and personnel who would otherwise have been unable to do anything useful and they actually achieved something worthwhile in this conflict and in the process showed determination and resourcefulness that we should be proud of. I cannot believe that the Argies were not gobsmacked to find that they were vulnerable to attack from heavy bombers from Ascension Island.
In the case of the Vulcans' first raid it was unfortunate that the along track error was so great that only the first bomb in the stick hit the far side of the runway but it did do considerable damage as has already been mentioned.
One should not detract from the skills and determination involved in this mission even though the runway was not cut as hoped - it was always calculated that the over target requirement to achieve a high probability of success was way more than the resources available. Just be content that an effort was made using equipment and personnel who would otherwise have been unable to do anything useful and they actually achieved something worthwhile in this conflict and in the process showed determination and resourcefulness that we should be proud of. I cannot believe that the Argies were not gobsmacked to find that they were vulnerable to attack from heavy bombers from Ascension Island.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Official History of the Falklands Campaign - Vol II, Page 280-281
"The significance of the Vulcan raids remained controversial. It was an expensive and cumbersome way of delivering bombs but it reduced the demands on the Sea Harriers. The hole in the middle of the runway was probably as much as could have been achieved and it precluded Stanley's use by the more capable Argentine aircraft. Perhaps most importantly it drew Argentine attention to the vulnerability of their mainland bases. This led to the redeployment of their Mirage III* to the defence of the mainland bases and away from support of offensive operations against the Task Force."
[*the only radar equipped Mirage in their inventory.]
May 1st, signal from Woodward to Fieldhouse.
.....Indicating that he was now converted to the possibilities of the Vulcan, he continued:
.....When they appreciated the role played by the Vulcan the Argentine Commanders also had to contemplate that the same aircraft might be used against the mainland. The threat to the mainland became a theme in Argentine planning from this time.
Falklands - The Air War - Page 146, Grupo 8 de Caza:
"The FAA was worried that the next Vulcan target might be rather more ambitious and it was thus decided to withdraw most of the Grupo 8 Mirages to Comodoro Rivadavia to protect the CdoFAS Headquarters. No more long-range missions were flown for some weeks..... At Comodoro Rivadavia the the Mirages stood constant alert and, in the subsequent weeks, regularly patrolled the Argentine-Chile border zone. Incidents such as the Sea King affair at Punta Arenas did nothing to reassure the FAA that an attack would not come from west of the Andes and, accordingly, Mirage activity was increased."
"The significance of the Vulcan raids remained controversial. It was an expensive and cumbersome way of delivering bombs but it reduced the demands on the Sea Harriers. The hole in the middle of the runway was probably as much as could have been achieved and it precluded Stanley's use by the more capable Argentine aircraft. Perhaps most importantly it drew Argentine attention to the vulnerability of their mainland bases. This led to the redeployment of their Mirage III* to the defence of the mainland bases and away from support of offensive operations against the Task Force."
[*the only radar equipped Mirage in their inventory.]
May 1st, signal from Woodward to Fieldhouse.
.....Indicating that he was now converted to the possibilities of the Vulcan, he continued:
I would prefer to rely on Vulcan high level work for this task [keeping Stanley airfield down], escorted by Harriers if needs be. Nevertheless the fact has to be faced that the Args have considerable land based air resources and we have only 20 SHAR; to gain control over the air, considerable risks will have to be taken.
The Argentine Response.....When they appreciated the role played by the Vulcan the Argentine Commanders also had to contemplate that the same aircraft might be used against the mainland. The threat to the mainland became a theme in Argentine planning from this time.
Falklands - The Air War - Page 146, Grupo 8 de Caza:
"The FAA was worried that the next Vulcan target might be rather more ambitious and it was thus decided to withdraw most of the Grupo 8 Mirages to Comodoro Rivadavia to protect the CdoFAS Headquarters. No more long-range missions were flown for some weeks..... At Comodoro Rivadavia the the Mirages stood constant alert and, in the subsequent weeks, regularly patrolled the Argentine-Chile border zone. Incidents such as the Sea King affair at Punta Arenas did nothing to reassure the FAA that an attack would not come from west of the Andes and, accordingly, Mirage activity was increased."
Last edited by ORAC; 6th Jan 2013 at 15:05.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Soddim, and of course the attack speed. A lower speed would have resulted in a smaller interval at a potentially greater vulnerability to the delivery aircraft.
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Pontius - the effect of attack speed on stick spacing is a given; however, the Vulcan was not capable of reducing vulnerability by increasing speed. In the event it was fortunate that the Argies did not devote more attention to Brain Hanrahan's 10 o'clock news broadcast the night before the raid. He said that the carrier's crew were busy loading bombs on the Harriers - knowing that the Vulcan was already airborne perhaps coloured my view but I would have thought that the only reason for loading bombs was to drop them and where else but Stanley Airfield.
I presume you would have targeted the leadership in Bagdad on the same principle?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Just to add a couple more snippets about the roles of the Victor, VC-10 and Nimrod R1 from the official history....
The Official History of the Falklands Campaign - Vol 2, pages 236-237. (South Georgia)
Enormous efforts were made using a Victor aircraft supported by multiple air-to-air refuelling to obtain maritime Radar Reconnaissance (MRR) on the location of Argentine ground forces and whether any shipping was concealed in inlets and coastal waters. There were doubts within the Task Group about this approach, with some concern that a Victor flight might simply alert the enemy or that the aircraft might be obliged to divert to Brazil. Taking account of these concerns Beetham and Nott concluded that a sortie was only to be mounted is this was the only way Yound could get decent intelligence on South Georgia. Young, pleased to get whatever information was on offer, was keen and so, on 20 April, the first Victor MRR was flown. The aircraft was airborne for nearly 15 hours, requiring 7 tankers, and became the first to overfly occupied British territory. Again no shipping was detected in the vicinity of South Georgia. Further sorties were planned for 22 and 24 April and in due course successfully completed.
Pages 397-398 (Chile)
It was now agreed that a Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft would be accepted at the airfield on San Felix, a remote island off the coast of Chile. From San Felix the aircraft the aircraft could make several very valuable sorties, refuelling at night in the Chilean air base at Concepcion on the mainland coast, and then flying in Chilean airspace and out into the South Atlantic. The aircraft would be able to collect useful information from outside the cover of Argentine radar, and transmit it to the Task Force. The Nimrod would be supported by a VC-10. The first sortie was flown early on the morning of Sunday 9 May, a second on 15 May and a third 2 days later......
The Official History of the Falklands Campaign - Vol 2, pages 236-237. (South Georgia)
Enormous efforts were made using a Victor aircraft supported by multiple air-to-air refuelling to obtain maritime Radar Reconnaissance (MRR) on the location of Argentine ground forces and whether any shipping was concealed in inlets and coastal waters. There were doubts within the Task Group about this approach, with some concern that a Victor flight might simply alert the enemy or that the aircraft might be obliged to divert to Brazil. Taking account of these concerns Beetham and Nott concluded that a sortie was only to be mounted is this was the only way Yound could get decent intelligence on South Georgia. Young, pleased to get whatever information was on offer, was keen and so, on 20 April, the first Victor MRR was flown. The aircraft was airborne for nearly 15 hours, requiring 7 tankers, and became the first to overfly occupied British territory. Again no shipping was detected in the vicinity of South Georgia. Further sorties were planned for 22 and 24 April and in due course successfully completed.
Pages 397-398 (Chile)
It was now agreed that a Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft would be accepted at the airfield on San Felix, a remote island off the coast of Chile. From San Felix the aircraft the aircraft could make several very valuable sorties, refuelling at night in the Chilean air base at Concepcion on the mainland coast, and then flying in Chilean airspace and out into the South Atlantic. The aircraft would be able to collect useful information from outside the cover of Argentine radar, and transmit it to the Task Force. The Nimrod would be supported by a VC-10. The first sortie was flown early on the morning of Sunday 9 May, a second on 15 May and a third 2 days later......
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SASLess, you miss the point that there was a complete similarity between FI and GW1. In both cases the mission was to recover territory that had been invaded. In GW2 the mission was entirely different.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Soddim, I take your point but suggest that a 240 kt attack would have achieved a tighter stick than one at 360 kt - guessing at speeds - but it would have led to a significant increase in time between detection and release.
