N-Word (yet again!)
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It was not deemed or meant to be a racist slur in it's time context, simply viewed as one now.....
I still don't see people jumping up and down about it's use throughout Blazing Saddles and they are used as a slur..
Or does comedy make it alright?
I still don't see people jumping up and down about it's use throughout Blazing Saddles and they are used as a slur..
Or does comedy make it alright?
Last edited by NutLoose; 7th Jan 2013 at 08:53.
Gentleman Aviator
The biggest 'problem' here is that "Nigger" was the code-word for a breach of the Mohne Dam. It is of vital historical importance.
Does this mean it's OK to offend Siggies and AEOs and even the odd pilot - comme moi - who is fairly fluent in lines and spots......
* *[Smily denoting I'm attempting to be facetious and lighten the mood]
I have to admit (and bear in mind I've completed 2 tours on 617 Sqn) that in the context of a mass audience directed film like this is, the actual name of the dog or the codeword are pretty low in the priority list when compared to the importance of just about everything else in the story. I think the only justification for maintaining absolute historical accuracy by using the dogs name would be to explain the use of the word as the codeword for the successful breach. The 2 must go together otherwise the audience would be left wondering why such an offensive word was used. But as neither of those are that important, I don't see the issue with changing the name to prevent too many focussing on a relatively unimportant fact. There are enough members here and enough documentaries/articles etc where the exact details are recorded that it wont get lost in history.
And why can't we have discussions with opposing views on here without it all getting a bit too personal?
JMHO.
And why can't we have discussions with opposing views on here without it all getting a bit too personal?
JMHO.
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Ok, I'll bite.
Just to advise you all, not all black people in the U.K. call each other N*****, in fact most hate and despise this term, and I am happy to say current most people of all colours and creeds share this view. I am well aware that some American Rap stars became successful and wealthy by exploiting this term in the 80's, this does not make it acceptable in today's society on this side of the pond. This week, another iconic actor has sought to exploit the term in his new film no less than 30 times, and has openly exploited the inference that he can use it, but white journalists cannot. Shame on him, but he is wealthy enough not to care. All of the examples of so called acceptability of the term seem to feature American comedians or films, can you see a trend emerging?
Commentators on this thread are correct when they state that this word was the dogs name, and codeword for the successful raid on the Mohne. As other commentators have stated, these are but two facts, in a mission with a huge number of facts.
Consider this. I have adjacent to me a DVD - a documentary made to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the raid. It includes eyewitness accounts, interviews with the survivors who took part in the raid, as well as an extensive reconstruction of the raid using computer graphics and current ( at the time) aircrew. It runs for around 156 minutes, and nowhere is the name of the pet, for that is all it was, featured, or any of the codewords for a successful raid. Does that detract from a successful story for the masses? At the same time, a computer simulation was launched, with links to the current 617, and supported by them. Does anyone remember a clamour to mention the pet's name then?
Where the term emerged from or it's history is irrelevant to it's use in the original film.
Althenick, what concerns you most, the historical correctness of the story, or the freedom to use any phrase or term you choose, when you choose? Are you prepared for others to promote your most hated terms?
500N seems to have the most clear view on the impact of this term on an audience of sub 25 year olds. And remember, to that age group, the RAF simply consists of handlebar moustaches, goggles and stiff upper lip accents.
Just to advise you all, not all black people in the U.K. call each other N*****, in fact most hate and despise this term, and I am happy to say current most people of all colours and creeds share this view. I am well aware that some American Rap stars became successful and wealthy by exploiting this term in the 80's, this does not make it acceptable in today's society on this side of the pond. This week, another iconic actor has sought to exploit the term in his new film no less than 30 times, and has openly exploited the inference that he can use it, but white journalists cannot. Shame on him, but he is wealthy enough not to care. All of the examples of so called acceptability of the term seem to feature American comedians or films, can you see a trend emerging?
Commentators on this thread are correct when they state that this word was the dogs name, and codeword for the successful raid on the Mohne. As other commentators have stated, these are but two facts, in a mission with a huge number of facts.
Consider this. I have adjacent to me a DVD - a documentary made to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the raid. It includes eyewitness accounts, interviews with the survivors who took part in the raid, as well as an extensive reconstruction of the raid using computer graphics and current ( at the time) aircrew. It runs for around 156 minutes, and nowhere is the name of the pet, for that is all it was, featured, or any of the codewords for a successful raid. Does that detract from a successful story for the masses? At the same time, a computer simulation was launched, with links to the current 617, and supported by them. Does anyone remember a clamour to mention the pet's name then?
Where the term emerged from or it's history is irrelevant to it's use in the original film.
Althenick, what concerns you most, the historical correctness of the story, or the freedom to use any phrase or term you choose, when you choose? Are you prepared for others to promote your most hated terms?
500N seems to have the most clear view on the impact of this term on an audience of sub 25 year olds. And remember, to that age group, the RAF simply consists of handlebar moustaches, goggles and stiff upper lip accents.
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Whether currently viewed as right or wrong, I think most of the people viewing this forum will agree that it is a matter of historical fact. That fact concerns one of the most historically significant wartime events of the last century. I am 41 years old, and a Sergeant in today's RAF..... I have a 'dark' and somewhat practical, military sense of humour....
The word 'Nigger'' is a historical word, derived from Negro, as in black..... Whilst a historical origin for this word is contentious, I think it is vital that we remember how words meanings and associations have changed over the years...
How many of you have felt so happy and gay on a Friday afternoon...?
After a heavy night on the vino, have you ever woken up feeling Queer?
The modern interpretation of 'old' words can lead to confusion.... Some of these words are still in everyday use.
Sometimes, these words are taken in offence by third parties, without the original participants being aware of the giving or receiving of such offence.
To Deny Nigger his name is close to the suggestion of the denial of the holocaust.... both are facts of the Second World
war......
The word 'Nigger'' is a historical word, derived from Negro, as in black..... Whilst a historical origin for this word is contentious, I think it is vital that we remember how words meanings and associations have changed over the years...
How many of you have felt so happy and gay on a Friday afternoon...?
After a heavy night on the vino, have you ever woken up feeling Queer?
The modern interpretation of 'old' words can lead to confusion.... Some of these words are still in everyday use.
Sometimes, these words are taken in offence by third parties, without the original participants being aware of the giving or receiving of such offence.
To Deny Nigger his name is close to the suggestion of the denial of the holocaust.... both are facts of the Second World
war......
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Althenick, what concerns you most, the historical correctness of the story, or the freedom to use any phrase or term you choose, when you choose? Are you prepared for others to promote your most hated terms?
Excellent question - I am Scottish, like most people I can take the Banter and a few insults ie Porridge Wog. We call the English Sassenachs and the Welsh Sheep Shaggers. If it is said in a jocular Manner then fair enough.
In the '70's we had a Comedy Program over here called Love thy Neighbour - It was extremely racist even by 1970's standards but was also very popular. I suppose this was the case because a fair amount of Afro-Carribeans, Pakistani's, etc were filling up the country even though at the time unemployment was spiraling. I am not trying to defend this - it was wrong. but that was the prevailing attitude.
Now here we have a bloke who I do not beleive for a minute was racist but he called his Dog the N word why? Because at the time it was not regarded as racist. As kid in the '60s We had story books like "Little Black Sambo" My own Grandmother used to make up bedtime stories for myself and Siblings One of them "Kellar Mcginty and Yaki the Paki" had actually been modified (by my parents request) to "Kellar Mcginty and Yakifeet"
In short I dont think we should be changing History for the sake of PC otherwise where would it end.
The SNP (AKA the McNazis - My own name for them) Tried to get the History Curriculum taught in schools to infer that Scotland stood alone until the Americans came into the war in 1941. But hey-ho thats the problem with Nationalist, be they Scottish, British, German or whatever. They dont like something like fact to get in the way of them spinning a good line to the people.
Sorry for Rambling
AL
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There must have been a shift in the thread-wind cause there seems to be a bit of thread drift. this is my contribution;
1. the Dam?darn busters is on Youtube, all glorious 1:59:48 of it,apparantly in original format.
2. is the stbd acting creature in post 21 rated higher than that to port, as the letters on its chair are bigger
1. the Dam?darn busters is on Youtube, all glorious 1:59:48 of it,apparantly in original format.
2. is the stbd acting creature in post 21 rated higher than that to port, as the letters on its chair are bigger
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From "Running In"
***************
Photo Planet,
Usage of the N word has changed to the point that it is about up there with the most offensive words you can use. It has fallen out of common parlance so it would be difficult to suggest to think of a scenario where you could use it innocently and accidentally cause offense unless you were spectacularly naive.
Also, no one is denying that the Dog was called Ni**er. It was called Ni**er, I don't dispute that. What I have suggested is that in 2013 it would absolutely not be appropriate to call the dog Ni**er in a remake of the Dambusters because of the offense it would cause to a great number of people.
The story is that the man leading raid was an emotionally repressed, brilliant 24 year old who had a very strong bond with his dog. It was killed before he went into action and out of affection for it he included it's name as a code word.
The name of the dog is irrelevant, if it was called Digger, Nigsy, Rover, anything, the telling of the story is the same. Just with out the massive hot potato that is using the N word.
***************
You know what? I would prefer it if there was no remake of the film "The Dambusters"... as no remake is necessary. The facts are properly represented, their achievements correctly apportioned. The fact that we, the British, by our combined endeavour with our allies, defeated the Nazis, who weren't too keen on the Jews or the Negros, or the Poles, all of whom were represented with honour and glory within the Allied Armed Forces.
And, if the director Peter Jackson has quite finished with his Hobbits, maybe he should consider leaving this piece of British history well alone.....
***************
Photo Planet,
Usage of the N word has changed to the point that it is about up there with the most offensive words you can use. It has fallen out of common parlance so it would be difficult to suggest to think of a scenario where you could use it innocently and accidentally cause offense unless you were spectacularly naive.
Also, no one is denying that the Dog was called Ni**er. It was called Ni**er, I don't dispute that. What I have suggested is that in 2013 it would absolutely not be appropriate to call the dog Ni**er in a remake of the Dambusters because of the offense it would cause to a great number of people.
The story is that the man leading raid was an emotionally repressed, brilliant 24 year old who had a very strong bond with his dog. It was killed before he went into action and out of affection for it he included it's name as a code word.
The name of the dog is irrelevant, if it was called Digger, Nigsy, Rover, anything, the telling of the story is the same. Just with out the massive hot potato that is using the N word.
***************
You know what? I would prefer it if there was no remake of the film "The Dambusters"... as no remake is necessary. The facts are properly represented, their achievements correctly apportioned. The fact that we, the British, by our combined endeavour with our allies, defeated the Nazis, who weren't too keen on the Jews or the Negros, or the Poles, all of whom were represented with honour and glory within the Allied Armed Forces.
And, if the director Peter Jackson has quite finished with his Hobbits, maybe he should consider leaving this piece of British history well alone.....
Last edited by Photoplanet; 8th Jan 2013 at 00:36.
Photoplanet
If you think changing the name of Guy Gibson's dog is akin to denying the holocaust then maybe you need help! I was going to write that perhaps we could all agree that a film that pays tribute to the heroism of the Dambusters was a good thing but clearly that consensus isn't about to happen.
Meanwhile back in the real world away from the insular Daily Mail reading, UKIP voting planet some of you inhabit, the 'N' word is highly offensive and would/could easily be changed without detracting from the real story which was that of a daring raid undertaken at extreme risk to the aircrew involved.
By the way I watched the recent BBC documentary narrated by Martin Shaw and he made the point that some of the original film was itself inaccurate in parts. For me it doesn't matter if the story is told in an effective way as long it conveys the undoubted bravery of the men of 617 squadron.
BBK
If you think changing the name of Guy Gibson's dog is akin to denying the holocaust then maybe you need help! I was going to write that perhaps we could all agree that a film that pays tribute to the heroism of the Dambusters was a good thing but clearly that consensus isn't about to happen.
Meanwhile back in the real world away from the insular Daily Mail reading, UKIP voting planet some of you inhabit, the 'N' word is highly offensive and would/could easily be changed without detracting from the real story which was that of a daring raid undertaken at extreme risk to the aircrew involved.
By the way I watched the recent BBC documentary narrated by Martin Shaw and he made the point that some of the original film was itself inaccurate in parts. For me it doesn't matter if the story is told in an effective way as long it conveys the undoubted bravery of the men of 617 squadron.
BBK
Last edited by BBK; 8th Jan 2013 at 08:19.
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Simple solution use the word and as I think C4 did, put a warning at the start the film contains words used in a historical context and not intended to offend... Job done
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What I find funny is that the same people who are taking the.. "well if you're offended, tough" line are the ones who are going out of their way to be offended by something so innocuous.
Whatever they do I won't be offended. If they call the dog the N word in the end then fine, that was it's name after all. If they don't, then fine I absolutely see why they would make that decision.
I'm still surprised by the lengths some people will go to find offense. I've got to say, in my experience the worst offenders in the outrage / how dare you offend me camp are rarely the oft mentioned 'PC brigade', it's usually the ones in Uniform who can't see the irony of them getting their knickers in such a twist.
Whatever they do I won't be offended. If they call the dog the N word in the end then fine, that was it's name after all. If they don't, then fine I absolutely see why they would make that decision.
I'm still surprised by the lengths some people will go to find offense. I've got to say, in my experience the worst offenders in the outrage / how dare you offend me camp are rarely the oft mentioned 'PC brigade', it's usually the ones in Uniform who can't see the irony of them getting their knickers in such a twist.
Last edited by Running_In; 8th Jan 2013 at 09:26.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I am presently reading the Bulldog Drummond omnibus. The last two books have used both N words in their traditional and derogatory context. I have heard no clamour for re-issued books to be censored.
In context these stories bear evidence of attitudes of the time. That is entirely different from the simple, and contemporary, naming of a pet.
In context these stories bear evidence of attitudes of the time. That is entirely different from the simple, and contemporary, naming of a pet.
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Non PC words.
I recall a few years ago on an American game/quiz show Whoopi Goldburg got her n*ickers severely twisted and stormed off stage because the answer to a tea (drink) related question was Plantation. Does this mean that any word used during the slavery era is forbidden?
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I'm all for sticks and stones however:
I imagine that this film will be on world wide release and introduce an enormous number of (ignorant) people to the Royal Air Force and Great Britain's efforts during the Second World War.
If the objective is to achieve the completely undeserved vilification of the late Wing Commander, (and by association, the RAF in general), by a huge number of admittedly ignorant people, then may I suggest that not changing a dog's name will be an extremely efficient way to achieve this.
Of course one could claim some kind of minor "moral" victory in standing by one's principles and not changing it. But wouldn't it be better to try to educate some of the masses rather than encouraging them to give the entire subject a wide berth?
Who knows, they may even feel more inclined to vote for greater defence spending.
I imagine that this film will be on world wide release and introduce an enormous number of (ignorant) people to the Royal Air Force and Great Britain's efforts during the Second World War.
If the objective is to achieve the completely undeserved vilification of the late Wing Commander, (and by association, the RAF in general), by a huge number of admittedly ignorant people, then may I suggest that not changing a dog's name will be an extremely efficient way to achieve this.
Of course one could claim some kind of minor "moral" victory in standing by one's principles and not changing it. But wouldn't it be better to try to educate some of the masses rather than encouraging them to give the entire subject a wide berth?
Who knows, they may even feel more inclined to vote for greater defence spending.
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For what it's worth, I think that the inclusion of the dog is almost irrelevant. Other than intimating that the Sqn Boss liked his dog so much that the codeword for success was the dog's name, it adds little to the story. Not enough - IMHO - to include the dogs actual name; that said, I'm glad that the original film was not censored, but I think that is a different matter.
My suggestion would be for Gibson to have a pet camel and for the codeword for success to be 'HUMPED'.
Duncs
My suggestion would be for Gibson to have a pet camel and for the codeword for success to be 'HUMPED'.
Duncs