N-Word (yet again!)
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Witney
Age: 43
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Pig,
I think and therein lies the difference between you and me, I start from the position of liking people until they prove otherwise, not the other way around.
I do know that the N word was used as a code word, but you could call the dog Rover, use the code word Rover and nothing would be taken away from the Story. Like I've said before, unlike ADs examples where the offense caused by the word was part of the story. If Wg Cdr Gibson had named his Dog Ni**er because he was actually a massive racist then it would be entirely proper to keep it's name. He just happened to call it something that was pretty unoffensive in 1940's England, but now actually would upset a lot of people.
500N,
You are of course correct, but in the year 2013, Ni**er and N*gro are quite offensive. The US Senate (I think) recently removed the word 'Lunatic' from US law because it's usage has changed and it is no longer appropriate. Also, where I grew up in Yorkshire there used to be an workhouse for 'idiots' among others. It was more of a legal term in the way that 'special needs' might be used nowadays. I can't think many people would think it was ok to officially describe people with mental handicaps or a low IQ Idiots in 2013 because it was considered ok in 1800's Yorkshire.
I think and therein lies the difference between you and me, I start from the position of liking people until they prove otherwise, not the other way around.
I do know that the N word was used as a code word, but you could call the dog Rover, use the code word Rover and nothing would be taken away from the Story. Like I've said before, unlike ADs examples where the offense caused by the word was part of the story. If Wg Cdr Gibson had named his Dog Ni**er because he was actually a massive racist then it would be entirely proper to keep it's name. He just happened to call it something that was pretty unoffensive in 1940's England, but now actually would upset a lot of people.
500N,
You are of course correct, but in the year 2013, Ni**er and N*gro are quite offensive. The US Senate (I think) recently removed the word 'Lunatic' from US law because it's usage has changed and it is no longer appropriate. Also, where I grew up in Yorkshire there used to be an workhouse for 'idiots' among others. It was more of a legal term in the way that 'special needs' might be used nowadays. I can't think many people would think it was ok to officially describe people with mental handicaps or a low IQ Idiots in 2013 because it was considered ok in 1800's Yorkshire.
Probably a 32 year old with little experience of life, who is destined to be constantly disappointed with people.
The term 'lunatic' came from the observation that psychiatric patients, if they manifest increased symptoms it is usually during the period of a full moon hence the term 'lunatic'. Thankfully we now have far better treatment today than at the time of Bedlam. Just work in an A/E department at the time of a full moon.
The term 'lunatic' came from the observation that psychiatric patients, if they manifest increased symptoms it is usually during the period of a full moon hence the term 'lunatic'. Thankfully we now have far better treatment today than at the time of Bedlam. Just work in an A/E department at the time of a full moon.
Last edited by air pig; 6th Jan 2013 at 22:18.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Witney
Age: 43
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ha ha, Air Pig, now you're just getting personal! I've got just enough life experience thanks, I joined the RAF 10 years ago and I've been a busy boy since.
Aileron Drag,
I'm absolutely not offended that Guy Gibson chose to call his dog Ni**er. When he did that, it wouldn't have been offensive. If he had lived in 1940's rural Georgia then I would find it distasteful. but I doubt it points to anything even slightly sinister.
Also, if someone was writing a history book then of course the name of the dog would be important.
But this isn't a history book, this is a film, produced to tell a story to a mass audience. Most people in the world haven't read the history of 617 Sqn. If Peter Jackson does release a new Dambusters film then what do you think people would talk about if the dog was named 'ni**er'? The heroism of the boys on the raid, of the bloody dog?
Like it or not it would upset a lot of people, and considering it is only the name of the dog a lot of people wouldn't get why it wasn't just changed. The worst part of it is, it would associate the use of the N word with the RAF in the minds of a lot of people.
Aileron Drag,
I'm absolutely not offended that Guy Gibson chose to call his dog Ni**er. When he did that, it wouldn't have been offensive. If he had lived in 1940's rural Georgia then I would find it distasteful. but I doubt it points to anything even slightly sinister.
Also, if someone was writing a history book then of course the name of the dog would be important.
But this isn't a history book, this is a film, produced to tell a story to a mass audience. Most people in the world haven't read the history of 617 Sqn. If Peter Jackson does release a new Dambusters film then what do you think people would talk about if the dog was named 'ni**er'? The heroism of the boys on the raid, of the bloody dog?
Like it or not it would upset a lot of people, and considering it is only the name of the dog a lot of people wouldn't get why it wasn't just changed. The worst part of it is, it would associate the use of the N word with the RAF in the minds of a lot of people.
Last edited by Running_In; 7th Jan 2013 at 12:33.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a film set in Yorkshire in 1810, I would have the Manager calling the inmates "idiots".
Can you imagine the gent in his 1810 starched collar referring to the inmates as the "special needs" group.
I absolutely despair at your, frankly, pathetic ideas of political correctness; at your contempt for the history of your country. You and your fellow-travellers are truly our new enemy. Bah!
You disgust me - off to bed.
PS - just read that you are RAF. Do you not KNOW how many ops you've been on? Sorry the recruitment standard has dropped so low.
Good night.
Can you imagine the gent in his 1810 starched collar referring to the inmates as the "special needs" group.
I absolutely despair at your, frankly, pathetic ideas of political correctness; at your contempt for the history of your country. You and your fellow-travellers are truly our new enemy. Bah!
You disgust me - off to bed.
PS - just read that you are RAF. Do you not KNOW how many ops you've been on? Sorry the recruitment standard has dropped so low.
Good night.
Last edited by Aileron Drag; 6th Jan 2013 at 22:24.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Witney
Age: 43
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AD,
No one is making a film about 1810's Yorkshire, and yes of course I would have the manager calling the inmates 'idiots' in that kind of film.
I would have a slave master on a slave ship calling his cargo 'Ni**er'.
Just not the dog in a remake of this particular film.
No one is making a film about 1810's Yorkshire, and yes of course I would have the manager calling the inmates 'idiots' in that kind of film.
I would have a slave master on a slave ship calling his cargo 'Ni**er'.
Just not the dog in a remake of this particular film.
Last edited by Running_In; 6th Jan 2013 at 22:25.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Running In
Like people are offended by the word "Black"
yet I come back from up north where they use
"black", "white", "whitey", "full blood" and
half caste" without a thought - and that is
from Aboriginal mouths !!!
I am sure blacks in America use similar terms.
Apply the rule to all and I might think about it.
Oh, BTW, I don't use the term nigger anyway
because it doesn't describe anything in my life.
Like people are offended by the word "Black"
yet I come back from up north where they use
"black", "white", "whitey", "full blood" and
half caste" without a thought - and that is
from Aboriginal mouths !!!
I am sure blacks in America use similar terms.
Apply the rule to all and I might think about it.
Oh, BTW, I don't use the term nigger anyway
because it doesn't describe anything in my life.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Witney
Age: 43
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Night AD, I'd have to go upstairs and check my number ones.. but of course that's only the ones I can tell you about!
500N
Again, I'm not from a back ground where people hold their tongues and I don't work somewhere where people hold their tongues either. I'm not expecting to go through life not being offended either.
There is a big big difference between people private conversations and a film intended for mass consumption. A film about Operation Chastise is not going to be a gritty urban drama. It is most likely going to be along the lines of 'isn't it breath taking what these young men and the people who supported them achieved' and showing the reality of what they went though. I think that bloody-mindedly insisting the name of the dog not be changed would make that the most memorable part of the film. Most people would just think that the guy who led the Dambusters was a racist. They are not going to go home after the film and fire up google and research cultural attitudes to the N word in 1940's Britain.
500N
Again, I'm not from a back ground where people hold their tongues and I don't work somewhere where people hold their tongues either. I'm not expecting to go through life not being offended either.
There is a big big difference between people private conversations and a film intended for mass consumption. A film about Operation Chastise is not going to be a gritty urban drama. It is most likely going to be along the lines of 'isn't it breath taking what these young men and the people who supported them achieved' and showing the reality of what they went though. I think that bloody-mindedly insisting the name of the dog not be changed would make that the most memorable part of the film. Most people would just think that the guy who led the Dambusters was a racist. They are not going to go home after the film and fire up google and research cultural attitudes to the N word in 1940's Britain.
Last edited by Running_In; 6th Jan 2013 at 22:33.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RI
"Like it or not it upset a lot of people, and considering it is only the name of the dog a lot of people wouldn't get why it wasn't just changed."
A lot of people ? Name your source because I have never seen
any ref to research.
" The worst part of it is, it would associate the use of the N word with the RAF in the minds of a lot of people."
That is called HISTORY - FACTS. What is wrong with it being
associated with the RAF ? FFS, it was a different era, WGAF
why it was used, it was used.
"in the minds of a lot of people"
Only those who know the history of 617 / Dambusters.
95%+ of kids wouldn't even know what the Dambuster's were
and might even scratch their heads if WWII was mentioned.
"Like it or not it upset a lot of people, and considering it is only the name of the dog a lot of people wouldn't get why it wasn't just changed."
A lot of people ? Name your source because I have never seen
any ref to research.
" The worst part of it is, it would associate the use of the N word with the RAF in the minds of a lot of people."
That is called HISTORY - FACTS. What is wrong with it being
associated with the RAF ? FFS, it was a different era, WGAF
why it was used, it was used.
"in the minds of a lot of people"
Only those who know the history of 617 / Dambusters.
95%+ of kids wouldn't even know what the Dambuster's were
and might even scratch their heads if WWII was mentioned.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Witney
Age: 43
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't need to find a source to say that the N word is considered to be a very offensive word by a lot of people.
Again, because it is not a documentary. It is a feature film. It is ok to tweak minor details if it adds to the experience.
by 'in the minds of a lot of people' I meant the millions of people who don't really know too much about 617 Sqn but do know that they want to go and see a war film made by a famous director.
Again, because it is not a documentary. It is a feature film. It is ok to tweak minor details if it adds to the experience.
by 'in the minds of a lot of people' I meant the millions of people who don't really know too much about 617 Sqn but do know that they want to go and see a war film made by a famous director.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,072
Received 2,940 Likes
on
1,252 Posts
Running In, next tome you are near the Church in Witney, look up the Spire at the monkey for me and wonder why.
Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Jan 2013 at 22:50.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,072
Received 2,940 Likes
on
1,252 Posts
I believe it was frightened by people, escaped from the fair ran up the Spire and fell, the town added it as a guilty gesture. That's what I was told when I lived there.
The other one is
On top of St. Marys church on the green is a monkey climbing real high. It is said that the church used to use a monkey to ring the bell and it has been built as a tribute to him. Stand with your back to the Leys and look up. You will see him. But beware! the graves to the left of you is the graveyard of hundreds of bodies (behind the metal gate in the middle of the wall, with no recognition plaque!) that died of the black plague.
The other one is
On top of St. Marys church on the green is a monkey climbing real high. It is said that the church used to use a monkey to ring the bell and it has been built as a tribute to him. Stand with your back to the Leys and look up. You will see him. But beware! the graves to the left of you is the graveyard of hundreds of bodies (behind the metal gate in the middle of the wall, with no recognition plaque!) that died of the black plague.
Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Jan 2013 at 22:54.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Witney
Age: 43
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm joining the dots, but if you're saying Witney used to have a black man who rung the bells and they put a monkey on top of the spire then I don't have a problem with that.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,072
Received 2,940 Likes
on
1,252 Posts
No what I am saying is there are various different tales, because the story has been changed over history to suit the time. And the true facts can be lost.
still better than the Hartlepool monkey, they hung that one as a French Spy
still better than the Hartlepool monkey, they hung that one as a French Spy
Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Jan 2013 at 23:01.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Witney
Age: 43
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My contribution to this discussion is all based on the very narrow context of what to call the dog in a potential remake of the dambusters and whether or not they should use the name on TV when they show the original film.
I don't think they should use the N word in either case, unless the film is on TV after 9pm.
I'm not talking about pieces produced for historical accuracy. I'm not asking for the facts to be lost in history.
I don't think they should use the N word in either case, unless the film is on TV after 9pm.
I'm not talking about pieces produced for historical accuracy. I'm not asking for the facts to be lost in history.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: troon
Age: 61
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All
I hate people that try to re-write history no matter how small the detail. The Dog's name was NIGGER - deal with it!
Low Observable
I notice you're location is "West Wessex" - Cornwall or Devon I presume. If that is the case then I wish you all the best for the forthcoming nuptuals with your Sister/Mother/Daughter/Sheep* - Just joking and I hope you aren't too offended 
As for me - Being a Porridge Wog and as such has paid more Hommage to Bacchus tonight than was wise. I shall be mopping up the Alcohol with a Jockistani National Delicacy - Known to all up here as a "Darkie's Walluper Supper"
*Delete as or if appropriate - I think polligamy is legal down there?
Oh and BTW - If they do remake that Brilliant film then in the interests of PC I suggest they call the Dog "Digger" - A pretty inocuous name I think with only a slight possibility of upsetting the Ausies - Nah scrub that!
I hate people that try to re-write history no matter how small the detail. The Dog's name was NIGGER - deal with it!
Low Observable
(I am getting married in March, a marriage that was illegal where I live until the late 1960s) and overt social discrimination.
As for me - Being a Porridge Wog and as such has paid more Hommage to Bacchus tonight than was wise. I shall be mopping up the Alcohol with a Jockistani National Delicacy - Known to all up here as a "Darkie's Walluper Supper"
*Delete as or if appropriate - I think polligamy is legal down there?
Oh and BTW - If they do remake that Brilliant film then in the interests of PC I suggest they call the Dog "Digger" - A pretty inocuous name I think with only a slight possibility of upsetting the Ausies - Nah scrub that!
I do wonder who is most upset by the N-word. Or by the omission of said word! Most people in the world will understand the choice NOT to name the dog Nigger in the new film. It will only be a small minority who would really argue to keep it in...or out for that matter.
Last edited by PENKO; 7th Jan 2013 at 00:05.
The name of the dog is insignificant compared to the significant achievements of the boffins and aircrew in enabling and executing the raid.
The movie, like it of not, needs to make money. Why would any sane producer jeapardise this for an insignificant detail. Yes I do understand it was the code name, but it could have equally been marbles, Timmy, John, tennis racquet, whatever. That's the whole idea. Pick an insignificant word disassociated with the plan to not give the game away.
Maybe the people getting their panties in a twist could invest their own time putting the money and talent together to make their own movie, then they can call the dog whatever they like.
The movie, like it of not, needs to make money. Why would any sane producer jeapardise this for an insignificant detail. Yes I do understand it was the code name, but it could have equally been marbles, Timmy, John, tennis racquet, whatever. That's the whole idea. Pick an insignificant word disassociated with the plan to not give the game away.
Maybe the people getting their panties in a twist could invest their own time putting the money and talent together to make their own movie, then they can call the dog whatever they like.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My, what a great advert for our armed forces: people taking time out of their lives to justify using racist language, and calling those who disagree pathetic.
If you're so hell bent on historical accuracy, do your best to understand the full context behind the UK's involvement and leadership in mass slavery. How one can somehow shrug this off as 'contextual' or 'of its time', then get on a po-faced high horse when someone suggests that racist language is a bad thing is beyond me.
If you're so hell bent on historical accuracy, do your best to understand the full context behind the UK's involvement and leadership in mass slavery. How one can somehow shrug this off as 'contextual' or 'of its time', then get on a po-faced high horse when someone suggests that racist language is a bad thing is beyond me.