N-Word (yet again!)

[CoffmanStarter]

Time to move on I think with this one

[BEagle]

Too much pride is taken in the correcting by the pseudo-offended, holier-than-thou brigade.

Including the F-15 children who banned the use of the words 'head' and 'box' and insisted upon 'locker' (yes, really) and 'container' - because the more normal words were deemed offensive to wimmin.

So we asked them to stop using a word which was highly offensive to female members of our detachment. Mortified, they asked what the word was....

"Bush".



Gibson's sodding dog wasn't a pedigree black lab at all. It was a bit of a mutt, with a white blaze and was dark brown. The same colour as a well-known paint pigment (and Kiwi boot polish) colour of the time.

[Alber Ratman]

Hope Peter Jacksons / Stephen Fry's script when it see's the light of day is accurate to the drama's of the preparation / execution / memory of "Chastise".. The token Yank is already build in and his dramas pre take off / raid fit in nicely with any plot building.. Doesn't matter about the name of the dog, wouldn't even have got a mention in history if his owner had kept it on a lead / tied to a post when it was outside..

[tezzer]

Off thread, but made me smile

Also on TV yesterday, Gillette Soccer Saturday,the presenter, Geoff Shreeves talking about Mario Balotelli got hlfway through calling him the "enfent terrible" and cameout with the "enfent noir". Oops, but made me smile.

[FTE Pruner]

This might change your view on the word in question:

[Old-Duffer]

I had cause to visit the offices of a well known business consultancy in Chicago. The purpose being to discuss a computer software project.

During the debate on something or another, I used the phrase 'fag packet design'; comments which left one or two people horror struck!

Following the next coffee break, I had to apologise for my gaff and explain that in UK a 'fag packet' was a cigarette carton and had nothing to do with one's sexual orientation. I also had to explain that F.P.D was a phrase for something scratched out quickly and without recourse to formal design conventions.

I think it was W S Churchill who commented that: 'the US and Brits were two peoples separated by a common language'.

Old Duffer

[Running_In]

Personally, I have zero problem with the name of the dog being removed from the film and if it's re named in Peter Jackson's film.

The N word is considered by some to be very very offensive. Considering it is hard to underestimate how important the name of the dog is to the story of what was achieved during the dam's raid I really can't understand why people get so excited about it being changed.

No one has a right not to be offended, but you should make an effort when you can not to offend people. It not as if a film like the Dambuster is designed for a niche audience either, it is designed for mass consumption as Peter Jackson's will be. Why not change an insignificant detail if in the 60 since the events attitudes have changed so that it is now considered rather offensive?

[Aileron Drag]

You should not change historical fact. The Ruskies did it, and we despised them for re-writing their history. Now your generation want to do it also.

We called our French enemies 'Frogs' during the Napoleonic wars; we called the Germans 'Krauts' in WW2 and 'Huns' in WW1. Think we should change that?

Black people call each other 'nigger', for pity's sake. Why is everybody so bl**dy sensitive these days? My mates at school called me a "skinny streak of p*ss" because I was 6' 2" and very thin. I found it quite amusing, and insulted them back.

I'm all for respect, but this 'guilt over slavery' thing is way out of control. England destroyed slavery in the early 19th Century, and without the UK's efforts in WW2 our nemesis Adolf would have ended up ruling the world and killing every non-white on the planet.

Get off your pseudo-guilt-horse.

[Milo Minderbinder]

The dog doesn't even have to be named. It could just be generically referred to e.g. "Hello Boy" or "Mutt".......though I can see the latter could cause identification confusion during the test drops

Seriously though......is the dog really important to the story? More of a worry is that the code word for breaching one of the dams was "Nigger". You can't escape the fact that that WAS an important part of the history

[Running_In]

AD

The N word is very loaded. It is very insulting to an awful lot of people. We used the word 'Frogs' against people we were fighting. The 'N' word is linked to mass slavery. That is like comparing apples and pears.

I've got absolutely nothing to feel guilty about, but I am very aware of the fact that there are a great deal of people who would be made to feel very uncomfortable by the use of the N word. Considering that it is a pretty unimportant part of the story I don't see why on earth people don't just think ''times have changed, the N word is pretty offensive now in a way it wasn't in 1940's England, so lets just change it and move on''

It is pretty obvious what black people are doing when using the N word among them selves.

[500N]

"Black people call each other 'nigger', for pity's sake. Why is everybody so bl**dy sensitive these days?"

And a hell of a lot worse.

Even using the word "black" gets sideways looks nowadays,
yet Aboriginies use it all the time - as well as white !!!

[500N]

"The 'N' word is linked to mass slavery."


And before that Portuguese and before that, it's original source, Latin !!!

So let's get the facts straight on where it came from.

[Running_In]

500N

I said it was linked to mass slavery, which it is.

The etymology of the N word is pretty irrelevant.

[air pig]

Running_In, have you a PC axe to grind here, the name is a fact of history, grow up and get over yourself. The biggest proponents of slavery were some of people of Arabic extraction and the British did indeed try to stop it. Slavery still exists today in sexual exploitation, Chinese snakehead gangs and even recent cases in the UK about slavery in involving paedophiles and travellers.

[Aileron Drag]

Running_In,

I'm trying to find an example to illustrate my 'problem' with re-writing history, because the reality might offend someone.

1. American civil war. One Confederate officer saying to another (in a filmed epic), "Jeez, Jethrow, you wanna move them canon? Why not git them there ethnic minority gentlemen to help yuh?"

2. 1942 - Warsaw. SS Colonel to Gestapo Chief. "Ach I vill finish vith this ghetto once und fur alles. By tomorrow, every follower of das ancient und noble religion of Moses vill be dead!"

That is what you are doing - changing history because you wish it had not happened. Because it 'offends'.

Man, life is offensive.

[Running_In]

Air Pig,

From my point of view, considering how offensive the N word is to some people the ones who need to get over them selves are the one who are getting their knickers in a twist over the possibility of it not being used in this context. Considering how unimportant it is to the story, I don't see the problem.

AD,

You are absolutely wrong.

In both of your examples you are removing the words in question from a context where the inherent racism is vital to the telling of the story. I know you've had to go to extremes to make your point but of course I wouldn't support either of those changes.

The world is offensive, but that isn't an excuse to go around offending people if you can avoid it. The world is also very violent, but people on the whole avoid being violent if they can.

In the context of the name of the dog, the potential for offense from such a minor detail is pretty great, which makes it in my opinion a good candidate to be quietly changed. Peoples usage of words changes. If in an alternate reality the dog had been called 'C**t Flaps' and since the 1940 those words had adopted the offensive nature they hold today, then I'm pretty sure most people would think.. fair enough, call it Rover. If it was the name of a major character or they had been flying the Avro 'Ni**er' Mk. 3A or attacking the 'Ni**er' Damn then it would be a lot more difficult. The fact is it is the name of bl**dy dog. I assume you'd be just as hacked off in your quest for absolute historical accuracy if they didn't get the number plates on the 617 Sqn wagons correct aswell?

[500N]

"I said it was linked to mass slavery, which it is.

The etymology of the N word is pretty irrelevant."


Yes, LINKED to slavery, but has been in use a lot longer than
slavery was around.

This is the "Gay" thread all over again.

Nigger, Negro were in use well before slighting black people.

PC BS IMHO.

[air pig]

The dogs name 'Nigger' was the actual code word for the breeching of the Mohne Dam, as Dinghy (after Squadron Leader HM 'Dinghy' Young DFC and bar) was for the breech in the Sorpe dam, so how you can take the word out is a mystery to me, or have you not read the history of Op Chastise and 617 Squadron.

I still believe you have a pc axe to grind, as I said get over yourself, at this point you could be making a fool of yourself. I'm offended that some people that I can think of in this world still consume oxygen but life is for living and is far too short to be on a crusading horse like this. History is history despite the fact you don't like it. I do despise everyone equally until they have proven to me that they are a friend.

500N I'm with you in this, this stinks of pc bulls**t and a load of old shoe repairers.

[Aileron Drag]

" I assume you'd be just as hacked off in your quest for absolute historical accuracy if they didn't get the number plates on the 617 Sqn wagons correct as well?"

.........No, not that pedantic, but you're challenging me. I'd be very cheesed off if they used Halifaxes rather than Lancasters, so -- oh hell, yes, I would object to any historical inaccuracy.

The biggest 'problem' here is that "Nigger" was the code-word for a breach of the Mohne Dam. It is of vital historical importance.

I cannot overstate the argument that slavery originated, as Air Pig has said, in the Arab nations (and indeed the West African - 'negro' - tribes). We - we, the Brits, sailed out in ships and ended the slave trade. WE ended it. The Royal Navy ended the slave trade.

Now, a 32 year old Briton is ashamed that a VC holder called his dog 'Nigger' in 1943.

O tempora, o mores.

[jwcook]

Whats wrong with being offended?

I think that about covers it.