French Air Force with Civil Registrations...Question?
Thread Starter
French Air Force with Civil Registrations...Question?
Hi all?
Sometimes here at my job we have to deal with some French Air Force/COTAM tech-stops, and sometimes we still have this doubt:
Almost every FPL issued has on its Reg Remark field, a registration as for example:
F-RAIE, RAIM, F-ZZZx, ZZZY, etc...but however on the plane itself the tale number/reg for example is 62-IS, IL, etc...
And even when talking with the crews its those numbers and letters on the tail/fuselage they prefer for us to use on traffic forms, mvt's, etc...
So here it goes my question...if there is no place in the plane where we can see those civil marks, and even the crew use the ones painted on the tail/fuselage when questioned, whats the purpose of these "F-" civil ones?
And why the purpose of this very unique policy for the FAF/COTAM planes?
Tanx in advance...JF
Sometimes here at my job we have to deal with some French Air Force/COTAM tech-stops, and sometimes we still have this doubt:
Almost every FPL issued has on its Reg Remark field, a registration as for example:
F-RAIE, RAIM, F-ZZZx, ZZZY, etc...but however on the plane itself the tale number/reg for example is 62-IS, IL, etc...
And even when talking with the crews its those numbers and letters on the tail/fuselage they prefer for us to use on traffic forms, mvt's, etc...
So here it goes my question...if there is no place in the plane where we can see those civil marks, and even the crew use the ones painted on the tail/fuselage when questioned, whats the purpose of these "F-" civil ones?
And why the purpose of this very unique policy for the FAF/COTAM planes?
Tanx in advance...JF
Last edited by JanetFlight; 7th Dec 2012 at 21:07.
The "civil registration" is not that but instead is a radio callsign. The "last two" of the callsign usually relate to the letters in the code so that 62-IS might have the callsign F-RAIS for example.
I'm sure that one of our French colleagues will be able to explain the system much more eloquently.
I'm sure that one of our French colleagues will be able to explain the system much more eloquently.
if there is no place in the plane where we can see those civil marks, and even the crew use the ones painted on the tail/fuselage when questioned, whats the purpose of these "F-" civil ones?
Another one here:
F-ZWUG Armée de l'Air (French Air Force) Airbus A330-223 - Planespotters.net Just Aviation
Last edited by wiggy; 7th Dec 2012 at 20:29.
F-Z... is usually a `test` aircraft,even temporary...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A British military aircraft used to use a similar system. IIRC it would me Mike ABCD or RAFAIR NNNN. These are State (ie Nation State) designations. Royal Navy I think would use NAVAIR.
These designators or RT callsigns are internationally agreed. The 4 numbers allocated could refer to a specific route with overflight rights and really are no different from civil aircraft flight numbers.
These designators or RT callsigns are internationally agreed. The 4 numbers allocated could refer to a specific route with overflight rights and really are no different from civil aircraft flight numbers.
F-Z... is usually a `test` aircraft,even temporary...
)???
Last edited by wiggy; 7th Dec 2012 at 21:27.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
You are confusing the aircraft registered serial number with the base/unit code which is displayed on the tail. The base/unit code will change if the aircraft is reassigned to a new unit, the aircraft serial number is assigned during manufacture and stays with the aircraft for life.
Link to website on French aircraft here. Specific link to FAF aircraft here.
Aircraft Serial Numbering System(s):
French Air Force aircraft carry French military serial numbers which are usually based on the manufacturers construction number for the airframe concerned. There is thus no overall numbering sequence, but a numbering sequence from 01 or 1 for each individual type. For example, MS.760 Paris 92 shares the same number as N.2501 Noratlas 92.
Unit/Base Aircraft Code System(s):
Most AdlA aircraft carry tactical code numbers of the form xx-AA, eg: Mirage 2000D 3-XE, where the first number denotes the Escadre (Wing), the first letter indicates the Escadron (Squadron) and the second letter denotes the individual aircraft.
Link to website on French aircraft here. Specific link to FAF aircraft here.
Aircraft Serial Numbering System(s):
French Air Force aircraft carry French military serial numbers which are usually based on the manufacturers construction number for the airframe concerned. There is thus no overall numbering sequence, but a numbering sequence from 01 or 1 for each individual type. For example, MS.760 Paris 92 shares the same number as N.2501 Noratlas 92.
Unit/Base Aircraft Code System(s):
Most AdlA aircraft carry tactical code numbers of the form xx-AA, eg: Mirage 2000D 3-XE, where the first number denotes the Escadre (Wing), the first letter indicates the Escadron (Squadron) and the second letter denotes the individual aircraft.
[I am not a spotter, honest]
It is F-W... that is the sequence for test aircraft.
F-Z... denotes "State owned", and as well as Ade'lA, ALAT and FN aircraft you also see it on Gendermarie, Douanes, Coast Guard equivalent etc
[/I am not a spotter, honest]
It is F-W... that is the sequence for test aircraft.
F-Z... denotes "State owned", and as well as Ade'lA, ALAT and FN aircraft you also see it on Gendermarie, Douanes, Coast Guard equivalent etc
[/I am not a spotter, honest]
So here it goes my question...if there is no place in the plane where we can see those civil marks, and even the crew use the ones painted on the tail/fuselage when questioned, whats the purpose of these "F-" civil ones?
And why the purpose of this very unique policy for the FAF/COTAM planes?
And why the purpose of this very unique policy for the FAF/COTAM planes?
I was under the impression that they were issued to ease the process of obtaining diplomatic clearances and overflights?
DH
In the olden days the RAAF used used "civil style" call signs being VM-xxx* as distinct from civil regn of VH-yyy.
These were allocated by squadron and used for ATC purposes. EG. No.10 Sqn P-2's were VM-XD[x} where the last letter indicated the crew.
Tactical call-signs were used for exercises or training.
All stopped one day and squadron call-signs became the norm
*Nothing was painted on individual aircraft in that format.
These were allocated by squadron and used for ATC purposes. EG. No.10 Sqn P-2's were VM-XD[x} where the last letter indicated the crew.
Tactical call-signs were used for exercises or training.
All stopped one day and squadron call-signs became the norm
*Nothing was painted on individual aircraft in that format.
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I seem to remember (dim distant past of 50 odd years ago) the Israeli AF (certain types anyhow) bore civil registration markings. I think we (Visiting Aircraft Servicing Flight) at Akrotiri occasionally handled IAF Noratlas aircraft in a camouflage paint scheme carrying what seemed like a civil aircraft registration (4X- something). Word around the section at the time suggested this was principally to ease the process of obtaining overflight/landing permissions etc. Perhaps a similar situation ?
*Nothing was painted on individual aircraft in that format.
The Navy Goonies did have the radio callsigns painted on the fins. Eg A65-23 was VJ-ORA, A65-43 was VJ-ORB. Didn't see any others though.
Last edited by BBadanov; 9th Dec 2012 at 00:14.
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here you got your answer:
Aéronefs militaires
F-Mxxx Armée de Terre
sauf F-MJxx Gendarmerie
F-Rxxx Armée de l'air
F-Sxxx Armée de l'air
F-Txxx Armée de l'air
F-Uxxx Armée de l'air
F-Xxxx Marine nationale
F-Yxxx Marine nationale
F-Zxxx Direction générale de l'Armement
sauf F-ZBAA à F-ZBLZ Douanes
sauf F-ZBMA à F-ZBZZ Sécurité Civile
Aéronefs militaires
F-Mxxx Armée de Terre
sauf F-MJxx Gendarmerie
F-Rxxx Armée de l'air
F-Sxxx Armée de l'air
F-Txxx Armée de l'air
F-Uxxx Armée de l'air
F-Xxxx Marine nationale
F-Yxxx Marine nationale
F-Zxxx Direction générale de l'Armement
sauf F-ZBAA à F-ZBLZ Douanes
sauf F-ZBMA à F-ZBZZ Sécurité Civile
Thread Starter
Hi all and tanx to all, for all your inputs and contributions.
However one doubt remains...is it those civil markings the official ones and also the ones in wich we should use to identify the plane itself, or the tail/fuselage markings, or all of those civil ones (except the Airbus, Falcons, Cessnas, etc wich use them painted on the outside) are a kind of FPL's fictional purpose?
As i said those civil ones are only depicted on the FPL's, and not on the plane itself, and when questioned the crews about that doubt, most of them dont know also wich civil reg. its attributed to their own planes, they only know it if they see the FPL's or besides that, they still identify their planes with the usual "Numbers+Letters" tail/fuselage markings.
As an airport authority and management we still dont know wich ones are the official ones to use in messages, mvt's, traffic forms, etc?
And being myself an airline pilot too, but without flying due personal issues for some years, i think remembering my ground air law instructors on the ATC issues, that we always should use in the reg.marking field at the FPL the ones painted in the fuselage/tail, mainly due to the safety concerns in case of a crash, accident, etc, to ease identify the plane wich crashed or got missed...
With my best regards...tanx again...JF
However one doubt remains...is it those civil markings the official ones and also the ones in wich we should use to identify the plane itself, or the tail/fuselage markings, or all of those civil ones (except the Airbus, Falcons, Cessnas, etc wich use them painted on the outside) are a kind of FPL's fictional purpose?
As i said those civil ones are only depicted on the FPL's, and not on the plane itself, and when questioned the crews about that doubt, most of them dont know also wich civil reg. its attributed to their own planes, they only know it if they see the FPL's or besides that, they still identify their planes with the usual "Numbers+Letters" tail/fuselage markings.
As an airport authority and management we still dont know wich ones are the official ones to use in messages, mvt's, traffic forms, etc?
And being myself an airline pilot too, but without flying due personal issues for some years, i think remembering my ground air law instructors on the ATC issues, that we always should use in the reg.marking field at the FPL the ones painted in the fuselage/tail, mainly due to the safety concerns in case of a crash, accident, etc, to ease identify the plane wich crashed or got missed...
With my best regards...tanx again...JF
Last edited by JanetFlight; 9th Dec 2012 at 05:38.
"Diplomatic Clearances"
As Dep Def Attache somewhere really nice I used to submit DipClears on behalf of ASCOT Ops and others. As I recall the reg no of the a/c was not important (airframes get changed) it was the Flight Number/callsign which was key.
My host nation often picked us up for using 'ASCOT xxxx' and 'RR xxxx' interchangeably.
Batco
As Dep Def Attache somewhere really nice I used to submit DipClears on behalf of ASCOT Ops and others. As I recall the reg no of the a/c was not important (airframes get changed) it was the Flight Number/callsign which was key.
My host nation often picked us up for using 'ASCOT xxxx' and 'RR xxxx' interchangeably.
Batco
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
