Gloster Javelin
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: St Ives, Cambs
Age: 80
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Javelin Photos
It has been said that the Mk6 and Mk8 Javelins were more effective than the Mk7 and Mk9 Javelins. This was due to them having the American made AI-22 radar which offered a track WHILE scan capability, whereas the Mk 7 and Mk9 were fitted with the British made AI-17 which offered a track OR scan capability. I was wondering if any Javelin crews wished to comment on this?
Also, it is great to see some Javelin photos on this thread. Are there any more out there???
Also, it is great to see some Javelin photos on this thread. Are there any more out there???
Not pictures as such but some videos.
The first link is to a video on on YouTube and I nearly didn't post it for fear it would be over-familiar to people. But it's in keeping with this thread and some may not have seen it I guess, so here it is:
The second is a nice old Pathe film about the introduction of the Mk1 with 46 sqn at Odiham: RAF GETS ANOTHER NEW FIGHTER - British Pathé I smiled at the final line in the commentary about one task of the squadron being to see if there were any ways of improving the aircraft
The third, for the more die-hard Javelin fan, is another Pathe - a rather ponderous silent sequence of a Javelin in a ground-testing silencer pen: TWIN JET SILENCER PEN - British Pathé
The first link is to a video on on YouTube and I nearly didn't post it for fear it would be over-familiar to people. But it's in keeping with this thread and some may not have seen it I guess, so here it is:
The second is a nice old Pathe film about the introduction of the Mk1 with 46 sqn at Odiham: RAF GETS ANOTHER NEW FIGHTER - British Pathé I smiled at the final line in the commentary about one task of the squadron being to see if there were any ways of improving the aircraft
The third, for the more die-hard Javelin fan, is another Pathe - a rather ponderous silent sequence of a Javelin in a ground-testing silencer pen: TWIN JET SILENCER PEN - British Pathé
Last edited by Frostchamber; 15th Nov 2012 at 14:21.
Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember in the early 70s a Javelin failing to take off from Odiham and departing though the hedge, across the Odiham/Hook road and into a field on the other side. The aircraft was virtually undamaged because, as the farmer explained, the hedges had been removed by innumerable Hunters and Javelins beforehand.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember in the early 70s a Javelin failing to take off from Odiham and departing though the hedge, across the Odiham/Hook road and into a field on the other side. The aircraft was virtually undamaged because, as the farmer explained, the hedges had been removed by innumerable Hunters and Javelins beforehand.
Didn't Ray Hannah experience something similar in a Javelin?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The one story I recall involving the Javelin, was Denis Healy, as Defence Minister, making an announcement in the H of C's to the effect that a squadron of Javelins had taken off from HMS ????? (an aircraft carrier on duty in the Indian Ocean) to patrol the borders of S Rhodesia, when Ian Smith declared unilateral independence.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: St Ives, Cambs
Age: 80
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Javelin radar AI-22 v AI-17
Like OK465, I, too, find single aircraft threads extremely interesting hence my request for Javelin crew comment on the attributes provided by having AI-22 equipment on board the Javelin rather than AI-17.
Being a night and all weather fighter (FAW), the Javelin and its pilot and navigator crew were expected to perform intercepts during day time and at night in all weather conditions at very high level all the way down to very low levels Therefore, in extreme weather conditions, the pilot would be concentrating on flying the aircraft and would almost certainly not be in a position to help with visual target acquisition. In such conditions, the task of target acquisition was handled by the navigator using the airborne intercept (AI) radar.
My understanding is that the the AI-22 was, in effect, a dual radar system. It had a search radar and a separate tracking radar which operated at a different frequency. The benefit of this was that if, due to target countermeasures and /or evasion, the tracking radar's lock was broken the navigator could immediately re-acquire the target by looking at the search radar function and, if desired, rapidly slew the tracking radar back on to the target. The other advantage was that by monitoring the search radar the navigator could easily see if his tracking radar was tracking the target or a chaff bundle. Once locked on, the pointing direction of the tracking radar was fed to the pilot's HUD/Gun-sight. By having the search and track functions operating simultaneously, the navigator was better able to maintain situation awareness and achieve uninterrupted view of the target thus making a successful intercept more likely.
With AI-17, if radar lock was broken, the radar had to be returned to the sector scan function to re-acquire the target. Under benign operating conditions (straight and level or mild turns) this would not have caused a significant problem and re-lock would / should have been fairly easily achieved. However, in extreme weather and operating conditions and if the target was evading and using chaff and/or jamming the problem would become much more difficult and a successful intercept less likely.
This is my theoretical analysis of the benefits afforded by having AI-22 on board instead of AI-17. But, I was a radar tradesman not a navigator and I really would like to hear from Javelin crew members if this theoretical analysis held up under real operational conditions.
PLUS: Any additional Javelin photos would be welcomed
Being a night and all weather fighter (FAW), the Javelin and its pilot and navigator crew were expected to perform intercepts during day time and at night in all weather conditions at very high level all the way down to very low levels Therefore, in extreme weather conditions, the pilot would be concentrating on flying the aircraft and would almost certainly not be in a position to help with visual target acquisition. In such conditions, the task of target acquisition was handled by the navigator using the airborne intercept (AI) radar.
My understanding is that the the AI-22 was, in effect, a dual radar system. It had a search radar and a separate tracking radar which operated at a different frequency. The benefit of this was that if, due to target countermeasures and /or evasion, the tracking radar's lock was broken the navigator could immediately re-acquire the target by looking at the search radar function and, if desired, rapidly slew the tracking radar back on to the target. The other advantage was that by monitoring the search radar the navigator could easily see if his tracking radar was tracking the target or a chaff bundle. Once locked on, the pointing direction of the tracking radar was fed to the pilot's HUD/Gun-sight. By having the search and track functions operating simultaneously, the navigator was better able to maintain situation awareness and achieve uninterrupted view of the target thus making a successful intercept more likely.
With AI-17, if radar lock was broken, the radar had to be returned to the sector scan function to re-acquire the target. Under benign operating conditions (straight and level or mild turns) this would not have caused a significant problem and re-lock would / should have been fairly easily achieved. However, in extreme weather and operating conditions and if the target was evading and using chaff and/or jamming the problem would become much more difficult and a successful intercept less likely.
This is my theoretical analysis of the benefits afforded by having AI-22 on board instead of AI-17. But, I was a radar tradesman not a navigator and I really would like to hear from Javelin crew members if this theoretical analysis held up under real operational conditions.
PLUS: Any additional Javelin photos would be welcomed
Last edited by Rallyepilot; 21st Nov 2012 at 19:26.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Penang, Malaysia
Age: 78
Posts: 262
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No. 60 Sqn final line-up at RAF Tengah, 1 May 1968, the day after the disbandment parade.
Jav Line-up001 by Janner88, on Flickr
Apologies for the poor quality. I only have a 5" x 3" B&W print to scan from. Negative has long since been lost.
Jav Line-up001 by Janner88, on Flickr
Apologies for the poor quality. I only have a 5" x 3" B&W print to scan from. Negative has long since been lost.
ISTR a story, probably apochryphal, that crews of at least one mark of Javelin that had a rotating rather than nodding emitter all or nearly all had children of one gender, but cannot recall if it was boys or girls, but I think possibly the latter
I thought all marks of Javelin had either AI 17 or AI 21/22 none of which I think had rotating scanners. Certainly the marks I worked on had AI 17 with the clunking side to side scanner which looked like it had been made by the village blacksmith on his day off.
In track mode AI17 stopped its bouncing off the end stops scan, pointed at the target designated by the nav and the radar head rotated, with a beam offset (2 degrees from my fading memory) from the axis of rotation so that the phase of the return amplitude drove the scanner to track the target. The dish didn't rotate, only the central waveguide out.
Never worked on AI22, but it had the reputation of better range, and more versatile, but less reliable in RAF service.
Never worked on AI22, but it had the reputation of better range, and more versatile, but less reliable in RAF service.
Last edited by Fitter2; 20th Nov 2012 at 12:52.
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Buckley
Age: 79
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bouncing off the end stops
I was at Seletar from '66 until '68, initially servicing AI17 in 390MU. The results of 'bouncing off the end stops' were clearly visible in the tears around the fixing nuts. It too a while before the management agreed to buy a torque wrench so they could be tightened correctly. End of tears.
AI17 was old in '66. Parts, especially the magnetron were labelled 1946 (same as the khaki drill) and the IF strips were so of spec. they were impossible to align. It took a purchase of some 66 ohm resistors and a test installation and demonstration to show what was wrong, but it also took a further 6 months for 'authorised' parts to arrive from the UK.
Power supplies were being rewired totally because they were totally decrepid. There was a young guy called Ramasamy Rajaratnam who took it upon himself to produce a rewiring harness from scratch. Fantastic job with one exception, and the trick was to get a pair of wires changed over between him finishing the job and putting it under power.
I was always surprised to see them fly and hoped I would never be offered a flight in one of them. I think they were all sold to the Singapore Government in 1969, virtually at scrap value for training Singapore airmen.
John
AI17 was old in '66. Parts, especially the magnetron were labelled 1946 (same as the khaki drill) and the IF strips were so of spec. they were impossible to align. It took a purchase of some 66 ohm resistors and a test installation and demonstration to show what was wrong, but it also took a further 6 months for 'authorised' parts to arrive from the UK.
Power supplies were being rewired totally because they were totally decrepid. There was a young guy called Ramasamy Rajaratnam who took it upon himself to produce a rewiring harness from scratch. Fantastic job with one exception, and the trick was to get a pair of wires changed over between him finishing the job and putting it under power.
I was always surprised to see them fly and hoped I would never be offered a flight in one of them. I think they were all sold to the Singapore Government in 1969, virtually at scrap value for training Singapore airmen.
John
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: St Ives, Cambs
Age: 80
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bouncing off the end stops
John,
I, too, worked at 390 MU in the mid 60s! Unfortunately, I was assigned to the DME bench - Rebecca 4 and 8 - which I found to be rather brain numbing.
Before being posted to Singapore I did some work on AI-17 at Leeming and Waterbeach hence my interest in the Javelin. I thought it was a great looking aircraft with bags of character. True, it probably couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, but when it came to performing night and/or all-weather interceptions of bomber size aircraft it proved to be a marked improvement over the Meteor NF11/14 which it replaced.
Anyway, I agree with you that AI-17 was a dogs breakfast and going by some of the ex-Javelin aircrew I have had the privilege of talking to, it was inferior to the American built AI-22 which was fitted to the even marks of Javelin.
Wasn't Singapore great in the 60s.
I, too, worked at 390 MU in the mid 60s! Unfortunately, I was assigned to the DME bench - Rebecca 4 and 8 - which I found to be rather brain numbing.
Before being posted to Singapore I did some work on AI-17 at Leeming and Waterbeach hence my interest in the Javelin. I thought it was a great looking aircraft with bags of character. True, it probably couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag, but when it came to performing night and/or all-weather interceptions of bomber size aircraft it proved to be a marked improvement over the Meteor NF11/14 which it replaced.
Anyway, I agree with you that AI-17 was a dogs breakfast and going by some of the ex-Javelin aircrew I have had the privilege of talking to, it was inferior to the American built AI-22 which was fitted to the even marks of Javelin.
Wasn't Singapore great in the 60s.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This link East Anglian Film Archive: Battle Formation: The Story of the Royal Air Force Coltishall, 1959 has some nice Javelin footage. A few might also recognise an ex RAF pilot for whom opportunity later "knocked" 
cheers
85Shiney
cheers
85Shiney
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love this aircraft! ...and have about 7 different Airfix-type plastic models awaiting construction.
Served at Tengah in 1975 (103 Sqdn) and there was a Javelin abandoned at one end of the runaway...no idea how it got there?
Am now living in SE Asia and, if anyone's interested, have photos of all the graves and memorials at Kranji Cemetery, in addition to 10 other countries in this region.
I mention this as I suspect that some of those Javelin aircrew/groundcrew may be buried there. All images are available for FREE...just ask.
Bucklt
Served at Tengah in 1975 (103 Sqdn) and there was a Javelin abandoned at one end of the runaway...no idea how it got there?
Am now living in SE Asia and, if anyone's interested, have photos of all the graves and memorials at Kranji Cemetery, in addition to 10 other countries in this region.
I mention this as I suspect that some of those Javelin aircrew/groundcrew may be buried there. All images are available for FREE...just ask.
Bucklt
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Saundersfoot, Pembrokeshire
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete Ash
I knew Pete Ash at R.A.F. Ahlhorn, where he was an NF11 driver on 256 Sqn.and his nav, was Arthur Sadler. I was a nav.on 96 Sqn, and Pete Driscoll was my driver. This was 1952 - 1955.
I was Nav/Rad Leader of the Javelin Mobile Training Unit, 1958 - 1959.
I would be very pleased to have Pete's contact details.
Norman Spence
I was Nav/Rad Leader of the Javelin Mobile Training Unit, 1958 - 1959.
I would be very pleased to have Pete's contact details.
Norman Spence