America's Dumbest War Ever
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War pics?
Believe me mate - I've met them. The war pics and Sven Hassel comics. No-one, ever, would ever publish such a pic if they actually had been involved.
Photogs make a living - just as newspapers and magazines feed off them to make profit.
That is their world.
Those of us who have seen disgusting actions don't take pics. We try to forget the mental ones.
Photogs make a living - just as newspapers and magazines feed off them to make profit.
That is their world.
Those of us who have seen disgusting actions don't take pics. We try to forget the mental ones.
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Alfred.
Don't disagree with your view that the military exists solely to achieve a political aim.
I also don't disagree that hearts and minds help greatly in winning the war but you can achieve hearts and minds without tying one hand behind the soldiers back - the SAS have done it on numerous occasions. That's not to say changing the ROE so less long range arty and Fast Air / CAS on houses and families is not good to achieve the hearts and minds but a blanket ban that costs soldiers lives ???????
I have yet to talk to people who have been there or read any of the books written by people that has them shooting the crap out of everything and anything. Soldiers and commanders are trained professionals, not shoot em up video game specialists.
Why train an army to fight if you then don't use that assett when you, the Politician starts the war ? Might as well train UN peace keepers to start with.
MG Cantwell has seen enough wars around the world to make a good judgement I think.
Re No Easy Day, have a read around page 140 / 141 re the gradual changes made to ROE that made it harder and harder to do the job.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
.
Don't disagree with your view that the military exists solely to achieve a political aim.
I also don't disagree that hearts and minds help greatly in winning the war but you can achieve hearts and minds without tying one hand behind the soldiers back - the SAS have done it on numerous occasions. That's not to say changing the ROE so less long range arty and Fast Air / CAS on houses and families is not good to achieve the hearts and minds but a blanket ban that costs soldiers lives ???????
I have yet to talk to people who have been there or read any of the books written by people that has them shooting the crap out of everything and anything. Soldiers and commanders are trained professionals, not shoot em up video game specialists.
Why train an army to fight if you then don't use that assett when you, the Politician starts the war ? Might as well train UN peace keepers to start with.
MG Cantwell has seen enough wars around the world to make a good judgement I think.
Re No Easy Day, have a read around page 140 / 141 re the gradual changes made to ROE that made it harder and harder to do the job.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
.
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I can't wait till the last of our troops leaves that god forsaken place and am convinced history will show what an utter waste of time, money and saddest of all blood the whole thing has been.
I certainly never voted for this and have spent enough time there to know of the horrors that occur.
Pics that graphic, of dead/dying American troops is in my opinion too much.
I certainly never voted for this and have spent enough time there to know of the horrors that occur.
Pics that graphic, of dead/dying American troops is in my opinion too much.
TT2...I have taken the position we need to reintroduce Conscription in the USA....make it so every Mother's Son and Daughter is subject to fighting in our Wars....not just the volunteer Professional Military. If we did.....perhaps the certain knowledge one's child or children would be one of those sent off to do the bleeding and dying....perhaps the Politicians would have to make a much more definite and compelling case for starting a War.
In this Country right now....as in every "War" since WWII....Korea onwards., we have not mobilized the Country for War....not once.
We are all off shopping at the Mall, taking our holidays, and generally going about our normal, regular, complacent daily business while brave Men and Women are dying in foreign lands for questionable causes, led by questionable Commanders in too many cases, and having to limit their actions for questionable political reasons. The average American Citizen has absolutely no concept what is going on in Afghanistan. The photo shows it as it is....that is why the government and media do not want to show these kinds of things. How long do you think the support for this War would last if we had these things shown us as we eat our Supper at night. The reporting of the Vietnam War proved the effect such images have on public opinion.
Perhaps if those of us who actually fight in these Wars started speaking up and telling the unvarnished truth about how things are....how they are causing death and maiming to those of us fighting the war.....maybe we could change things for the better. Who best knows what the truth is than those who have been there?
Who has earned the absolute right to speak out but those of us who fought and bear the wounds and scars? Our friends who we lost cannot.....don't we owe it to them to speak for them....to tell the truth?
I think so....I am bothered I waited as long as I have. Too many lives have been lost....too many have been wounded....and the truth is any that are harmed from this point on are needlessly lost and hurt as their sacrifice is not going to change the outcome.
There is no dramatic music playing....no beautiful shots of majestic flags flying....just murder and mayhem in combat. We owe it to those serving now to stand with and for them and bring them home as soon as we can.
In this Country right now....as in every "War" since WWII....Korea onwards., we have not mobilized the Country for War....not once.
We are all off shopping at the Mall, taking our holidays, and generally going about our normal, regular, complacent daily business while brave Men and Women are dying in foreign lands for questionable causes, led by questionable Commanders in too many cases, and having to limit their actions for questionable political reasons. The average American Citizen has absolutely no concept what is going on in Afghanistan. The photo shows it as it is....that is why the government and media do not want to show these kinds of things. How long do you think the support for this War would last if we had these things shown us as we eat our Supper at night. The reporting of the Vietnam War proved the effect such images have on public opinion.
Perhaps if those of us who actually fight in these Wars started speaking up and telling the unvarnished truth about how things are....how they are causing death and maiming to those of us fighting the war.....maybe we could change things for the better. Who best knows what the truth is than those who have been there?
Who has earned the absolute right to speak out but those of us who fought and bear the wounds and scars? Our friends who we lost cannot.....don't we owe it to them to speak for them....to tell the truth?
I think so....I am bothered I waited as long as I have. Too many lives have been lost....too many have been wounded....and the truth is any that are harmed from this point on are needlessly lost and hurt as their sacrifice is not going to change the outcome.
There is no dramatic music playing....no beautiful shots of majestic flags flying....just murder and mayhem in combat. We owe it to those serving now to stand with and for them and bring them home as soon as we can.
The Afghans have never been beaten at home - period. If NATO could fight them in Northern Europe, or the Canadian Bush or the US mid-west (for example) it might be different. At home - they're unbeatable.
I saw an interview with a Russian General who was there in the 80s. When asked if he had any advice for NATO he simply said "go home - now".
I saw an interview with a Russian General who was there in the 80s. When asked if he had any advice for NATO he simply said "go home - now".
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I think it was on this forum but in another thread where someone posted a great post about why the US / NATO should have got out after 2003 instead of trying to nation build. Yes, they hadn't got Osama - (Tora Bora, by all reports another failed leadership decision partly based on not wanting casualties and by not going in hard then, how many casualties have they caused since) but hadn't they achieved most of the objectives ?
A discussion of the Tora Bora battle....where Osama escaped to Pakistan.
If this is remotely accurate.....we should wonder why we are losing?
Battle of Tora Bora - War in Afghanistan Battle of Tora Bora
If this is remotely accurate.....we should wonder why we are losing?
Battle of Tora Bora - War in Afghanistan Battle of Tora Bora
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We can't win or lose the battle against terrorism in Afghanistan any more than we could in Iraq.
For those of us in "the West" terrorism strikes at our infrastructure, here in our backyards; mostly trains, planes, ships and buildings.
The so called war against terrorism can only be won here at home (wherever home is for you) by intelligence and local protection.
For those of us in "the West" terrorism strikes at our infrastructure, here in our backyards; mostly trains, planes, ships and buildings.
The so called war against terrorism can only be won here at home (wherever home is for you) by intelligence and local protection.
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lj101
I had read that before and used it to cross reference other written information
so yes, that is why they missed him.
.
I had read that before and used it to cross reference other written information
so yes, that is why they missed him.
.
Last edited by 500N; 28th Sep 2012 at 16:59.
SASless - my great big ass came back from deployment with prescriptive ROE 6 weeks ago, which I am willing to bet is considerably more recent than your last deployment.
There are 2 arguments here - the appropriateness of the Politicians to use ROE (and other methods) to shape and limit the military response they wish to achieve. The other is the appropriateness of the specifics of Afghanistan and associated ROE to achieve something (anything?).
And no, a soldier has no choice (beyond leaving) in obeying what is presented to him - there may be some scope to explore other options or influence events, but they don't take place at the fireteam level. To believe otherwise implies that civilians should not have control, or that control is limited, over the military.
(BTW, suggesting that ROE denies someone the use of their weapons (or other appropriate weapons) when required for self-defence simply indicates that you have no idea about ROE, the rules of self-defence and how to apply either of them.)
I'm not impressed by a 2* saying we should 'go hard or go home' - there have been 4*s who've said that and I still won't accept it. For a start we have 'gone (kinetically) hard' and we are in much the same position we were 9 years ago - a Pashtun population who don't want us there and accept no control other than their own (including from a 'capital city' they don't care about). Killing people simply begats killing people - unless you can kill everyone and leave no-one to take revenge. I presume you are seriously not promoting that as a COA?
Could we have limited the damage by ensuring there was a true comprehensive approach to Helmand, using much more civilian power and expertise, avoiding the use of firepower from the off (cf 'The Afghan Papers' by RUSI) and not getting sucked into a local power struggle: that would've been 'going hard'.
Finally, you can post all the graphic pictures you want. I've seen worse, will see worse and they have the same effect - a great sorrow that people like me, my family and my mates will be killed and injured. But I (and they) signed up for this knowing the risks - you simply bet it'll never be you.
There are 2 arguments here - the appropriateness of the Politicians to use ROE (and other methods) to shape and limit the military response they wish to achieve. The other is the appropriateness of the specifics of Afghanistan and associated ROE to achieve something (anything?).
And no, a soldier has no choice (beyond leaving) in obeying what is presented to him - there may be some scope to explore other options or influence events, but they don't take place at the fireteam level. To believe otherwise implies that civilians should not have control, or that control is limited, over the military.
(BTW, suggesting that ROE denies someone the use of their weapons (or other appropriate weapons) when required for self-defence simply indicates that you have no idea about ROE, the rules of self-defence and how to apply either of them.)
I'm not impressed by a 2* saying we should 'go hard or go home' - there have been 4*s who've said that and I still won't accept it. For a start we have 'gone (kinetically) hard' and we are in much the same position we were 9 years ago - a Pashtun population who don't want us there and accept no control other than their own (including from a 'capital city' they don't care about). Killing people simply begats killing people - unless you can kill everyone and leave no-one to take revenge. I presume you are seriously not promoting that as a COA?
Could we have limited the damage by ensuring there was a true comprehensive approach to Helmand, using much more civilian power and expertise, avoiding the use of firepower from the off (cf 'The Afghan Papers' by RUSI) and not getting sucked into a local power struggle: that would've been 'going hard'.
Finally, you can post all the graphic pictures you want. I've seen worse, will see worse and they have the same effect - a great sorrow that people like me, my family and my mates will be killed and injured. But I (and they) signed up for this knowing the risks - you simply bet it'll never be you.
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Conscription?
SASless - no need for conscription. Propoganda, the promise of shiny baubles, and free totty have worked since time immemorial in order to have young men sign up to get slaughtered.
I honestly think its all about money - not even oil. Wars are good for big business, do you really think BAE, EADS, Lockheed Martin, Boeing etc want the 'War On Terror' to end? When the Cold War ended the Military-Industrial complex was probably pretty concerned about profits. Not any more.
Right now, business is good, and all the dying is being done by somebody else. If the bosses of every major arms manufacturer and every senior politician,were told that they had to send a son or daughter out to the frontline by the end of October you'd soon see a change. How many senators or MPs have a son or daughter out there 'in harms way' right now? Somewhere around the zero mark? What about all the senior executives at BAEs, EADS, Lockheed Martin, Boeing etc. Do any of them have a son or daughter out there, or even worse - that's come back in a box, or with significant parts of their body or mind damaged beyound repair? What do you think?
Right now, business is good, and all the dying is being done by somebody else. If the bosses of every major arms manufacturer and every senior politician,were told that they had to send a son or daughter out to the frontline by the end of October you'd soon see a change. How many senators or MPs have a son or daughter out there 'in harms way' right now? Somewhere around the zero mark? What about all the senior executives at BAEs, EADS, Lockheed Martin, Boeing etc. Do any of them have a son or daughter out there, or even worse - that's come back in a box, or with significant parts of their body or mind damaged beyound repair? What do you think?
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I don't think any ammount of shocking photo's will make any difference to the public.
The military don't know what we're doing there, the politicians haven't got a clue and the public have never understood, people aren't stupid they know war is horrific, what helps them deal with it is if they believe in the cause.
The military don't know what we're doing there, the politicians haven't got a clue and the public have never understood, people aren't stupid they know war is horrific, what helps them deal with it is if they believe in the cause.
Alfred.....since when is War about "Self Defense"? That concept grants the initiative to the enemy and you should know that is the last thing you wish to give to your opponent as that is how he kills you, as he then chooses the time, place, and manner of the fight.
As you say....killing them all and leaving it to God to sort'em out is not one of the choices. We last did that pretty much back in WWII.
Since you just returned.....what chance do we have to turn this around and actually "WIN"? Can we even define what "Victory" is for this war in Afghanistan?
As to young folks signing up for this....I very much disagree with you on that. They signed on for a great many reasons....but to have their lives pissed away for no good reason is not at all what any of them expect out of their Leadership. Quite the opposite.....they want to know that what they are fighting for is the right and honorable thing to do and that it serves a genuine purpose.
It matters not whether I got back this morning or years ago from a different war....as the issues are the same, and the reasons for the failures are the same....and it is the same kinds of folks that are paying in blood, limbs, and lives.
I bear the scars from my war....so don't tell me I don't understand, don't know, and have no basis to talk about this. I paid my dues exactly as you and everyone else who has served in combat.
We got into this in 2001.....are scheduled to be there until late in 2014.....just what is right and holy about that kind of situation?
How many lives do we squander and have we squandered for no good purpose?
I have family serving now and who have done tours in Afghanistan and I pray they do not have to serve one more day there. If ordered they will go...they will take their chances because they are both good Soldiers but I assure you if they elected not to go I would respect them just as much as if they did. If they get Orders that is a decision they themselves will make and I know what they will decide. That kind of Loyalty and Honor should be reciprocated by their Leadership.....but it is not. Too many Generals are putting their fingers to their eyebrows and muttering "Yes Sir!" instead of standing up and telling the truth to the President and SecDef.
At least McNamara had the courage to admit how wrong he had been in the Vietnam years.....Westmoreland never did.
As you say....killing them all and leaving it to God to sort'em out is not one of the choices. We last did that pretty much back in WWII.
Since you just returned.....what chance do we have to turn this around and actually "WIN"? Can we even define what "Victory" is for this war in Afghanistan?
As to young folks signing up for this....I very much disagree with you on that. They signed on for a great many reasons....but to have their lives pissed away for no good reason is not at all what any of them expect out of their Leadership. Quite the opposite.....they want to know that what they are fighting for is the right and honorable thing to do and that it serves a genuine purpose.
It matters not whether I got back this morning or years ago from a different war....as the issues are the same, and the reasons for the failures are the same....and it is the same kinds of folks that are paying in blood, limbs, and lives.
I bear the scars from my war....so don't tell me I don't understand, don't know, and have no basis to talk about this. I paid my dues exactly as you and everyone else who has served in combat.
We got into this in 2001.....are scheduled to be there until late in 2014.....just what is right and holy about that kind of situation?
How many lives do we squander and have we squandered for no good purpose?
I have family serving now and who have done tours in Afghanistan and I pray they do not have to serve one more day there. If ordered they will go...they will take their chances because they are both good Soldiers but I assure you if they elected not to go I would respect them just as much as if they did. If they get Orders that is a decision they themselves will make and I know what they will decide. That kind of Loyalty and Honor should be reciprocated by their Leadership.....but it is not. Too many Generals are putting their fingers to their eyebrows and muttering "Yes Sir!" instead of standing up and telling the truth to the President and SecDef.
At least McNamara had the courage to admit how wrong he had been in the Vietnam years.....Westmoreland never did.
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Alfred
Soldiers, sailors and airmen and women will do what they are told but they do expect the senior leadership to fight the fight in the background so that they can do the job they are ordered to.
Yes men at the top and Pollies who want to micro manage everything seems
to be the norm nowadays.
Example in the book No Easy Day - helicopter crashed in the compound
- the people in that famous photo watching a live video feed of the raid on Bin Laden couldn't understand what was going on when they saw the helicopter go down so during the raid, a message was sent from the Situation room all the way to Admiral McRaven in Afghanistan asking what was happening !!!
His reply - "helicopter down, changing plans, my people on the ground will handle it."
WTF is the White House asking questions for during a raid like that.
I think the Admirals response was correct.
Having read a few books about Gulf War I, as SaSless stated,
it seems some at the top prefer saying Yes and saluting than
standing up for what is right.
Soldiers, sailors and airmen and women will do what they are told but they do expect the senior leadership to fight the fight in the background so that they can do the job they are ordered to.
Yes men at the top and Pollies who want to micro manage everything seems
to be the norm nowadays.
Example in the book No Easy Day - helicopter crashed in the compound
- the people in that famous photo watching a live video feed of the raid on Bin Laden couldn't understand what was going on when they saw the helicopter go down so during the raid, a message was sent from the Situation room all the way to Admiral McRaven in Afghanistan asking what was happening !!!
His reply - "helicopter down, changing plans, my people on the ground will handle it."
WTF is the White House asking questions for during a raid like that.
I think the Admirals response was correct.
Having read a few books about Gulf War I, as SaSless stated,
it seems some at the top prefer saying Yes and saluting than
standing up for what is right.
Last edited by 500N; 28th Sep 2012 at 21:35.
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Alfred has (IMHO) hit the nail squarely on the head. This 'war' was lost when it was decided that there was a uniquely military solution to preventing AQ and a host of other loosely affiliated organisations using Afghanistan as a training facility and power base.
Other than numerous tactical victories eventually equalling a strategic one (which they don't) I have never been entirely sure what our strategy has been in Afghanistan - which is disappointing given that I have some experience of the place.
Other than numerous tactical victories eventually equalling a strategic one (which they don't) I have never been entirely sure what our strategy has been in Afghanistan - which is disappointing given that I have some experience of the place.
Well....some news outlets have announced we recently passed the 2,000 KIA mark in Afghanistan. It was posted and no public hand wringing by anyone....not even the Cindy Sheehan's bothered to stage any sort of show.
Remember how it was during Bush's time in Office?
Tell me the Media is not the most loyal of Obama's support base!
This is how the one article at MSNBC and Yahoo summed the situation......
Remember how it was during Bush's time in Office?
Tell me the Media is not the most loyal of Obama's support base!
This is how the one article at MSNBC and Yahoo summed the situation......
"There is a challenge for the administration," O'Hanlon said, "to remind people in the face of such bad news why this campaign requires more perseverance."
Last edited by SASless; 30th Sep 2012 at 19:48.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Alfred has (IMHO) hit the nail squarely on the head. This 'war' was lost when it was decided that there was a uniquely military solution to preventing AQ and a host of other loosely affiliated organisations using Afghanistan as a training facility and power base.
Last edited by Two's in; 1st Oct 2012 at 00:27.