PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - America's Dumbest War Ever
View Single Post
Old 28th Sep 2012, 17:26
  #31 (permalink)  
alfred_the_great
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where-ever nav's chooses....
Posts: 834
Received 46 Likes on 26 Posts
SASless - my great big ass came back from deployment with prescriptive ROE 6 weeks ago, which I am willing to bet is considerably more recent than your last deployment.

There are 2 arguments here - the appropriateness of the Politicians to use ROE (and other methods) to shape and limit the military response they wish to achieve. The other is the appropriateness of the specifics of Afghanistan and associated ROE to achieve something (anything?).

And no, a soldier has no choice (beyond leaving) in obeying what is presented to him - there may be some scope to explore other options or influence events, but they don't take place at the fireteam level. To believe otherwise implies that civilians should not have control, or that control is limited, over the military.

(BTW, suggesting that ROE denies someone the use of their weapons (or other appropriate weapons) when required for self-defence simply indicates that you have no idea about ROE, the rules of self-defence and how to apply either of them.)

I'm not impressed by a 2* saying we should 'go hard or go home' - there have been 4*s who've said that and I still won't accept it. For a start we have 'gone (kinetically) hard' and we are in much the same position we were 9 years ago - a Pashtun population who don't want us there and accept no control other than their own (including from a 'capital city' they don't care about). Killing people simply begats killing people - unless you can kill everyone and leave no-one to take revenge. I presume you are seriously not promoting that as a COA?

Could we have limited the damage by ensuring there was a true comprehensive approach to Helmand, using much more civilian power and expertise, avoiding the use of firepower from the off (cf 'The Afghan Papers' by RUSI) and not getting sucked into a local power struggle: that would've been 'going hard'.

Finally, you can post all the graphic pictures you want. I've seen worse, will see worse and they have the same effect - a great sorrow that people like me, my family and my mates will be killed and injured. But I (and they) signed up for this knowing the risks - you simply bet it'll never be you.
alfred_the_great is offline