Don't fly over my house...
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Earlier in this thread I asked mike-wsm a question as to what his real concerns were. He replied to me via PM and I asked him another series of questions, also via PM. However, since he has not answered, what I think is a very reasonable series of questions for this discussion, then I will ask them again here...
Mike, why are you concentrating all your efforts on one tiny part of just one day of a 2 day air show, namely the overflight of WSM by the Red Arrows (probably lasting less than 30 seconds) as they fly a rear-arrival manoeuvre?
Why have you gone to the trouble of an FOI request for the rules/regulations over this single event?
If you are so concerned about the safety of innocent residents of WSM have you not considered that the 2 day event will attract many outsiders by road and there is a far, far greater probability of innocent residents of WSM being killed as the result of a car accident during the event than anything, let alone a Red Arrow Hawk, falling from the sky?
If you truly are concerned for the safety of those on the ground at WSM then surely you should be trying to get the whole event cancelled and thus prevent the large amount of visitors on the roads in the town for that whole period, and thus avoiding the much greater risk of an accident occurring.
I look forward to your reasoned reply,
MFC_Fly
Mike, why are you concentrating all your efforts on one tiny part of just one day of a 2 day air show, namely the overflight of WSM by the Red Arrows (probably lasting less than 30 seconds) as they fly a rear-arrival manoeuvre?
Why have you gone to the trouble of an FOI request for the rules/regulations over this single event?
If you are so concerned about the safety of innocent residents of WSM have you not considered that the 2 day event will attract many outsiders by road and there is a far, far greater probability of innocent residents of WSM being killed as the result of a car accident during the event than anything, let alone a Red Arrow Hawk, falling from the sky?
If you truly are concerned for the safety of those on the ground at WSM then surely you should be trying to get the whole event cancelled and thus prevent the large amount of visitors on the roads in the town for that whole period, and thus avoiding the much greater risk of an accident occurring.
I look forward to your reasoned reply,
MFC_Fly
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mike-wsm
There's no need for a FOI request for the rules & regs, google is your friend. They are all open source available Here
All military Aviation is conducted within the rules and properly assessed to ensure the risk to life ( 1st, 2nd or 3rd party) is tolerable and ALARP.We have to do this in line with civilian policy (JSP815 Annex A)
Just so you don't have to check my profile, I'm an ex mil aviator who has worked in aviation safety since 2008
(at a certain base with an airshow)
(Whoops just realised I've become one of the retired old gits who post on Pprune that I always used to complain about
)
There's no need for a FOI request for the rules & regs, google is your friend. They are all open source available Here
All military Aviation is conducted within the rules and properly assessed to ensure the risk to life ( 1st, 2nd or 3rd party) is tolerable and ALARP.We have to do this in line with civilian policy (JSP815 Annex A)
Just so you don't have to check my profile, I'm an ex mil aviator who has worked in aviation safety since 2008
(at a certain base with an airshow)(Whoops just realised I've become one of the retired old gits who post on Pprune that I always used to complain about
)
Last edited by Sideshow Bob; 3rd Oct 2012 at 17:01.
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Hi Guys,
Some misunderstanding here.
I contacted rafat pr by email, asking to see the waiver. They referred my request to HQ Air Command, who sent me copies of the waiver documents, saying that they were treating this as an FoI request.
My consideration of the wording of the waiver and in particular to whom it refers and if applicable their level of competence is ongoing.
MFC Fly wishes me to comment on comparative risks. If RAFAT obey the law and recognise that the waiver is not applicable over towns then the risk to our and indeed other towns will be reduced by one hundred per cent.
Hope that clarifies matters,
Mike
Some misunderstanding here.
I contacted rafat pr by email, asking to see the waiver. They referred my request to HQ Air Command, who sent me copies of the waiver documents, saying that they were treating this as an FoI request.
My consideration of the wording of the waiver and in particular to whom it refers and if applicable their level of competence is ongoing.
MFC Fly wishes me to comment on comparative risks. If RAFAT obey the law and recognise that the waiver is not applicable over towns then the risk to our and indeed other towns will be reduced by one hundred per cent.
Hope that clarifies matters,
Mike
Mike,
You were worried about me falling foul of a curious Google leading to the press findingstate secrets here. You might want to be careful about your clear accusation that the RED ARROWS ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND ARE CAVALIER.
Shall I call the Daily Mail with this story or would you like to?
You were worried about me falling foul of a curious Google leading to the press findingstate secrets here. You might want to be careful about your clear accusation that the RED ARROWS ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND ARE CAVALIER.
Originally Posted by mike-wsm
It's not the noise that worries me, it's the cavalier attitude. One has only to read the official accident reports to learn just what attitude some allegedly professional service pilots have toward safety procedures
Originally Posted by mike-wsm
I have in front of me MAA/OP/04/Reg/Waiv/FlyDis12/02 which says differently.
Originally Posted by mike-wsm
You flyboys should do your dangerous flying in dangerous flying areas, where there is minimal risk to the innocent civilians who have to pay your tax-free wages and accommodation and food and whatever else we have to pay for.
Originally Posted by mike-wsm
just giving you guys a chance before making a good case to send to "the respective event Flying Display Director"
Originally Posted by mike-wsm
My copy came from MoD under foi. It is my understanding that RA 2335 complies with European Law and that RAFAT have negotiated waivers with some but not all European countries to permit rear entry.
Originally Posted by mike-wsm
My concern is purely the risk of leaving one big smoking crater in the center of a town
Originally Posted by mike=wsm
So why not stick to European Law and take those risks out over the sea?
Originally Posted by mike-wsm
If RAFAT obey the law and recognise that the waiver is not applicable over towns then the risk to our and indeed other towns will be reduced by one hundred per cent.
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Mike
Mike, you have now made me flash. If you wish, I will publish your letter on this website; one of the most absurd I have ever read. How dare you continue with this idiotic tirade, that is rude and offensive while suggesting that the RAFAT operate outside of what they are legally allowed to do. Everything they do is scrutinised to the minute detail by professionals who ask lots of questions and once satisfied, write the rules. The Team are supervised very heavily and operate to limits ABOVE what they could do. Also, how dare you comment on the Teams 'Malta issue' without any knowledge of what happened. In fact, the Team had a minor problem and played it very safe, as they always do. I have had enough sir and it is about time this thread was closed. Flash over...for now
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TC - All perfectly reasonable statements, provided you are careful with your English comprehension.
Did anyone think to tell you guys at Finmere - World War II is over. Sorry you had to survive on Spam and powdered egg for all this time.
Did anyone think to tell you guys at Finmere - World War II is over. Sorry you had to survive on Spam and powdered egg for all this time.
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Good evening Mike,
I have skimmed this thread so may have missed much. If I repeat what has been written previously, or have misunderstood your concerns, I apologise.
The Military exist to protect the UK and UK interests (e.g. food and material supply routes). To do so requires not just equipment, but also skilled, trained, able people.
To train, one must train in a fashion that could be considered useful in a conflict situation. This is why it is useful to be able to fly through valleys, fly at low level, fly in formation etc.
If not skilled the Military persons might not live long, lose the piece of kit they have or many other nasty things. By doing this, they are not protecting the UK, or UK interests, just wasting their lives and some rather expensive kit.
There is some use for training over the sea, but not if the conflict is occurring over a desert, a mountain, or Europe like countryside.
Military life does have more hazards than your average civilian job. After all, how many other jobs is there someone trying to shoot you, blow you up, murder you etc? To reduce the big, big risk of definitely being killed you carry out training that is relevant, and has a fairly low risk element - such as flying down valleys when you are not being shot at.
Now for air displays; the purpose for displays is many fold. These include: -
One thing I should mention is the increased safety over many years. Yes aircraft have incidents at air shows , yet being at an air show does not significantly increase the risks. After all AF Flight 447 wasn't at an air show, yet 228 souls died. The Teneriefe KLM disaster killed 583. They weren't at an air show either.
If you really wish to reduce the number of "deaths" I would take a look at other matters that include starvation, poverty, war, crime, corruption. Take as much interest in these topics and you could potentially save a lot more lives.
I have skimmed this thread so may have missed much. If I repeat what has been written previously, or have misunderstood your concerns, I apologise.
The Military exist to protect the UK and UK interests (e.g. food and material supply routes). To do so requires not just equipment, but also skilled, trained, able people.
To train, one must train in a fashion that could be considered useful in a conflict situation. This is why it is useful to be able to fly through valleys, fly at low level, fly in formation etc.
If not skilled the Military persons might not live long, lose the piece of kit they have or many other nasty things. By doing this, they are not protecting the UK, or UK interests, just wasting their lives and some rather expensive kit.
There is some use for training over the sea, but not if the conflict is occurring over a desert, a mountain, or Europe like countryside.
Military life does have more hazards than your average civilian job. After all, how many other jobs is there someone trying to shoot you, blow you up, murder you etc? To reduce the big, big risk of definitely being killed you carry out training that is relevant, and has a fairly low risk element - such as flying down valleys when you are not being shot at.
Now for air displays; the purpose for displays is many fold. These include: -
- Assists with recruitment by inspiring people
- Lets tax payers see equipment and skills of trained persons
- Provides the tax payer and the media with a small insight as to what the Military do
- Allows foreign nations see skills and equipment. This may comfort allies and deter potential foe
- Engenders esprit de corps within the military. This is something that is particularly important as each persons life does depend on how well each person works within the team
- Aerobatics may also prove useful to save your life or a team members life. After all dog fights are a form of aerobatics
One thing I should mention is the increased safety over many years. Yes aircraft have incidents at air shows , yet being at an air show does not significantly increase the risks. After all AF Flight 447 wasn't at an air show, yet 228 souls died. The Teneriefe KLM disaster killed 583. They weren't at an air show either.
If you really wish to reduce the number of "deaths" I would take a look at other matters that include starvation, poverty, war, crime, corruption. Take as much interest in these topics and you could potentially save a lot more lives.
Last edited by hval; 4th Oct 2012 at 08:55. Reason: Numbers. Can't add up & spelling
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Mike,
I would suggest after reading your derogatory, inflammatory comments above, that you actually have no intention of listening to the truth, but are looking for ammunition to help you further your own, personal, selfish, short sighted aims.
And the Military put their lives at risk and die to protect people like you?
I would suggest after reading your derogatory, inflammatory comments above, that you actually have no intention of listening to the truth, but are looking for ammunition to help you further your own, personal, selfish, short sighted aims.
And the Military put their lives at risk and die to protect people like you?
Last edited by hval; 3rd Oct 2012 at 19:13. Reason: Big M Military
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"My consideration of the wording of the waiver and in particular to whom it refers and if applicable their level of competence is ongoing."
My consideration of mike-wsm's words and in particular the lack of any real substance or point and thus his level of competence has been concluded.
In summary his contribution to this thread demonstrates a level of self importance, attention seeking and ignorance that can only be displayed by a complete knob.
Good day to all.
My consideration of mike-wsm's words and in particular the lack of any real substance or point and thus his level of competence has been concluded.
In summary his contribution to this thread demonstrates a level of self importance, attention seeking and ignorance that can only be displayed by a complete knob.
Good day to all.
