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Very sorry SASless, you are of course correct. All muslims are terrorists, we should kill every single one of them.
Sorry for having an opinion that may vary from yours.
Sorry for having an opinion that may vary from yours.
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I am not so far away from Glojo's position.
There are many devout and peaceful Muslims as well as Christians, Buddhists and the rest, and if believing in deities helps them cope with the daily grind and the Inevitable future outcome of their life good luck to them.
But as has been proven in our own past, religion, if used for violent purposes, is often the "excuse" rather than the reason, we don't need to go further back than our own Northern Ireland conflict to try to understand that.
What you have around the main part of the Muslim world is excessive poverty and drudgery for the vast part of the population with very little me-time, but sufficient access to media these days to see the "west"with most of the wealth (in their eyes often aided and abetted by their wealthy leaders in their supply of oil to us). The people they see in the west live a very different life, already getting our paradise on earth by their comparisons and it must lead to an awful lot of envy and frustration.
As most of you will know many extreme critics are motivated by bitterness that they cannot get a piece of the action. The politics of envy will drive them to destroy what they too cannot have. Now if at this point anyone want to chip in with the comment that I am overlaying western value on other cultures, bollox, human wants are very similar wherever. If they could all have a nice house, two holidays a year, a shiny car, a wife and (and maybe a mistress) and all without having to work hours of manual toil in the hot sun, they would probably not be in such arush to run out and cause trouble.
Now this is the point at which someone will argue, what about extreme British Muslims ? Well there are elements of the same reasoning at work, unlike the US, which has more Muslim immigrants but does not share the same problem, the UK is much more homogenised in general and therefore more difficult to integrate, but many British Muslims are managing to do that well after two to three generations, the Pakistani guy who runs the corner shop near my house works his ass off and sends his kids to the same private school as mine, one is in the same class as my youngest and is a delightful little boy. However, for the workshy, the socially awkward or perhaps even the ones who believe that society owes them a living (like many non Muslims) the same politics of envy apply.
Take all of this envy, hand it weapons and point it in the right direction and hey presto !!
I remember my troops mantra. "Friday night a f*ck or a fight", well with option two largely out of the question, in the Muslim world I imagine it's "Friday night, a fight or a fight".
I don't know what the answer is, we live in a complicated world and cannot create social justice however much some think we can, it's just not that easy for a whole range of human factors ......but....maybe we are not helping out too much by giving them the opportunity on a regular basis and maybe beating them with a big stick and making them stand in the naughty corner on a regular basis isn't helping either.
And if you think that it is only the Muslim world,prepare for a shock, China's one child policy together with the desire to produce male heirs, left them with such a gender imbalance that "Saturday night a fight or a fight" is a very real possibility in that huge nation and why central government is heavily invested in internal security control and (rightly) deaf to any criticism from our side. The spectre of violent disagreement between haves and have-nots within Chinas borders keeps the Chinese leaders awake at night, and we all know the easiest way to defuse internal problems is to turn the populations attention outside !! So we are all heavily invested in helping China to keep internal passions under control.....god forbid anyone gets any ideas for a "Chinese spring" it would make the Arab one look like a sideshow.
Rmac
There are many devout and peaceful Muslims as well as Christians, Buddhists and the rest, and if believing in deities helps them cope with the daily grind and the Inevitable future outcome of their life good luck to them.
But as has been proven in our own past, religion, if used for violent purposes, is often the "excuse" rather than the reason, we don't need to go further back than our own Northern Ireland conflict to try to understand that.
What you have around the main part of the Muslim world is excessive poverty and drudgery for the vast part of the population with very little me-time, but sufficient access to media these days to see the "west"with most of the wealth (in their eyes often aided and abetted by their wealthy leaders in their supply of oil to us). The people they see in the west live a very different life, already getting our paradise on earth by their comparisons and it must lead to an awful lot of envy and frustration.
As most of you will know many extreme critics are motivated by bitterness that they cannot get a piece of the action. The politics of envy will drive them to destroy what they too cannot have. Now if at this point anyone want to chip in with the comment that I am overlaying western value on other cultures, bollox, human wants are very similar wherever. If they could all have a nice house, two holidays a year, a shiny car, a wife and (and maybe a mistress) and all without having to work hours of manual toil in the hot sun, they would probably not be in such arush to run out and cause trouble.
Now this is the point at which someone will argue, what about extreme British Muslims ? Well there are elements of the same reasoning at work, unlike the US, which has more Muslim immigrants but does not share the same problem, the UK is much more homogenised in general and therefore more difficult to integrate, but many British Muslims are managing to do that well after two to three generations, the Pakistani guy who runs the corner shop near my house works his ass off and sends his kids to the same private school as mine, one is in the same class as my youngest and is a delightful little boy. However, for the workshy, the socially awkward or perhaps even the ones who believe that society owes them a living (like many non Muslims) the same politics of envy apply.
Take all of this envy, hand it weapons and point it in the right direction and hey presto !!
I remember my troops mantra. "Friday night a f*ck or a fight", well with option two largely out of the question, in the Muslim world I imagine it's "Friday night, a fight or a fight".
I don't know what the answer is, we live in a complicated world and cannot create social justice however much some think we can, it's just not that easy for a whole range of human factors ......but....maybe we are not helping out too much by giving them the opportunity on a regular basis and maybe beating them with a big stick and making them stand in the naughty corner on a regular basis isn't helping either.
And if you think that it is only the Muslim world,prepare for a shock, China's one child policy together with the desire to produce male heirs, left them with such a gender imbalance that "Saturday night a fight or a fight" is a very real possibility in that huge nation and why central government is heavily invested in internal security control and (rightly) deaf to any criticism from our side. The spectre of violent disagreement between haves and have-nots within Chinas borders keeps the Chinese leaders awake at night, and we all know the easiest way to defuse internal problems is to turn the populations attention outside !! So we are all heavily invested in helping China to keep internal passions under control.....god forbid anyone gets any ideas for a "Chinese spring" it would make the Arab one look like a sideshow.
Rmac
Last edited by rmac; 16th Sep 2012 at 01:44.
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Islam fundamentalism is the driving force behind every major conflict in the Middle East — and, by one calculation, it is behind about half of the world's armed conflicts, from Algeria to the Philippines. The evils of dogmatism and religious tyranny are endemic to Islamic culture — and our evasion of this fact is making a mockery of the War on Terrorism.
If we want to win this war, we must begin by recognizing that this is Islamic fundamentalism's war against the "infidel" secularism of the West. Our goal in this war should be to beat down, to curtail, to drive out Islamic fundamentalism — not to replace it with our own religion, but to force Islam, like the religions of the civilized world, to lay down its arms and accept the freedom of a secular society.
Bob C
If we want to win this war, we must begin by recognizing that this is Islamic fundamentalism's war against the "infidel" secularism of the West. Our goal in this war should be to beat down, to curtail, to drive out Islamic fundamentalism — not to replace it with our own religion, but to force Islam, like the religions of the civilized world, to lay down its arms and accept the freedom of a secular society.
Bob C
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Robert
Beating down, curtailing, forcing etc etc etc doesn't seem to work terribly well though does it.
I don't understand the mind of the fundamentalist, perhaps those who are involved in 'cults' have a better idea as to how people can be easily led into behaviour that the majority don't understand or display, space ships anyone?
I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't believe violence (as you describe it) is the way forward. Education helps, on both sides.
Beating down, curtailing, forcing etc etc etc doesn't seem to work terribly well though does it.
I don't understand the mind of the fundamentalist, perhaps those who are involved in 'cults' have a better idea as to how people can be easily led into behaviour that the majority don't understand or display, space ships anyone?
I have no idea what the solution is, but I don't believe violence (as you describe it) is the way forward. Education helps, on both sides.
Last edited by lj101; 16th Sep 2012 at 07:54.
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Proving how barbarous we can be?
How about just putting down the rabid dog....we do that out of a service to the community Ithought!
How about just putting down the rabid dog....we do that out of a service to the community Ithought!
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Many indicators found when dealing with mental health patients are also found when dealing with people who have strong religious beliefs.
Agree with RMAC.
Reading the discussion going on here and how intense, at times, it becomes is there any wonder that religious fanatics and zealots of any kind use violence as a means of expression.
We are a product of our environment/society. If you had been born in the 1920's in Germany its odd's on you would have been a Nazi or at least in the Nazi youth.
Its not excusable but there is a reason for the type of behaviour that occurs in the Middle East, just the same as what occurs in the deep South of America.
Its human nature. Belief is like hope and when it reaches the stage of fanaticism is a human disease that allows people to survive the most horrendous situation but at the same time commit the most inhuman acts possible.
I find it bereft of sanity to see arguments to limit weapons that mutilate and cause unbelievable injuries on the justification that this is not civilised and we are descending into inhumane behaviour. Get a grip, war is inhumane behaviour and its been going on since the caveman picked up a club ( you can imagine the committee on whether the club was an acceptable weapon "No its not allowed to be bigger than X and must be made of basalt wood).
What has the above line got to do with it all. We are at war with terrorism. Its not Marquess of Queensbury rules. We are human and always will be different, unless we end up like George Orwell's 1984, which is what Afghanistan was like (under the Taliban) and Russia was and China is and Cambodia was and Uganda was and North Korea is and kceflknhceflncefnj. There never will be a Utopia where everyone thinks and believes the same (thank heavens, what a boring place).
How does this explain the violent protest of the peace loving Muslims in living in Western cities. The same as it explains the Vietnam protests. The mob is easily led, particularly the young whom want to be part of something, anything and have a reason for getting out of bed.
What do we do. I think it would be acceptable to deport them to where this style of behaviour, violent protests and burning of flags and effigies is acceptable. Will that solve the problem. Nope but it would be nice to do something.
Are we getting to the stage were it has become obvious that we need to protect and look after our society and culture. Nope its too multi-cultural to do that.
Reading the discussion going on here and how intense, at times, it becomes is there any wonder that religious fanatics and zealots of any kind use violence as a means of expression.
We are a product of our environment/society. If you had been born in the 1920's in Germany its odd's on you would have been a Nazi or at least in the Nazi youth.
Its not excusable but there is a reason for the type of behaviour that occurs in the Middle East, just the same as what occurs in the deep South of America.
Its human nature. Belief is like hope and when it reaches the stage of fanaticism is a human disease that allows people to survive the most horrendous situation but at the same time commit the most inhuman acts possible.
I find it bereft of sanity to see arguments to limit weapons that mutilate and cause unbelievable injuries on the justification that this is not civilised and we are descending into inhumane behaviour. Get a grip, war is inhumane behaviour and its been going on since the caveman picked up a club ( you can imagine the committee on whether the club was an acceptable weapon "No its not allowed to be bigger than X and must be made of basalt wood).
What has the above line got to do with it all. We are at war with terrorism. Its not Marquess of Queensbury rules. We are human and always will be different, unless we end up like George Orwell's 1984, which is what Afghanistan was like (under the Taliban) and Russia was and China is and Cambodia was and Uganda was and North Korea is and kceflknhceflncefnj. There never will be a Utopia where everyone thinks and believes the same (thank heavens, what a boring place).
How does this explain the violent protest of the peace loving Muslims in living in Western cities. The same as it explains the Vietnam protests. The mob is easily led, particularly the young whom want to be part of something, anything and have a reason for getting out of bed.
What do we do. I think it would be acceptable to deport them to where this style of behaviour, violent protests and burning of flags and effigies is acceptable. Will that solve the problem. Nope but it would be nice to do something.
Are we getting to the stage were it has become obvious that we need to protect and look after our society and culture. Nope its too multi-cultural to do that.
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PTT - I'm not quite sure how my comment can be considered a logical fallacy but I'd be interested in an explanation of your assertion.
If you had been born in the 1920's in Germany its odd's on you would have been a Nazi or at least in the Nazi youth.
When I was young, the babysitter who came to make sure we didn't burn the house down when our parents were out for the evening was a German ex-PoW who had stayed in England after the war. 'Rudi' was a very pleasant chap.
One night we were allowed to stay up to watch The Valiant Years and the programme featured the HJ. Poor old Rudi looked very uncomfortable and told us "It was not like the Boy Scouts, you had to join it!".
His telephone report from Dunkeswell to my father in Jan 1963 was memorable: "It iss schnowink like schtink!".....
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Sep 2012 at 07:27.
Thread Starter
Reading the discussion going on here and how intense, at times, it becomes is there any wonder that religious fanatics and zealots of any kind use violence as a means of expression.
We are a product of our environment/society. If you had been born in the 1920's in Germany its odd's on you would have been a Nazi or at least in the Nazi youth.
We are a product of our environment/society. If you had been born in the 1920's in Germany its odd's on you would have been a Nazi or at least in the Nazi youth.
As for being in Nazi party, many people were not and Hitler youth became compulsory
What has the above line got to do with it all. We are at war with terrorism. Its not Marquess of Queensbury rules. We are human and always will be different, unless we end up like George Orwell's 1984, which is what Afghanistan was like (under the Taliban) and Russia was and China is and Cambodia was and Uganda was and North Korea is and kceflknhceflncefnj. There never will be a Utopia where everyone thinks and believes the same (thank heavens, what a boring place).
I'm starting to think - having read some of SASLess's recent ramblings about guns, homosexuals and abortion, that if you could ever get him and a nicely rabid Islamist in the same room, that they'd soon discover they actually have rather a lot in common.
You can analyse it all you want, but IMHO it's actually quite simple;-
Many of the Muslim protestors have a medieval mindset (remember, on their calender its the 15th Century).
Wars are good for big business, do you really think BAEs, EADS, Lockheed Martin, Boeing etc want the 'War On Terror' to end? When the Cold War ended the Military-Industrial complex was probably pretty concerned about profits.
Right now, business is good. If the bosses of every major arms manufacturer, and every senior politician, had a son or daughter on the frontline you'd soon see a change.
You can analyse it all you want, but IMHO it's actually quite simple;-
Many of the Muslim protestors have a medieval mindset (remember, on their calender its the 15th Century).
Wars are good for big business, do you really think BAEs, EADS, Lockheed Martin, Boeing etc want the 'War On Terror' to end? When the Cold War ended the Military-Industrial complex was probably pretty concerned about profits.
Right now, business is good. If the bosses of every major arms manufacturer, and every senior politician, had a son or daughter on the frontline you'd soon see a change.
Last edited by Thud105; 17th Sep 2012 at 08:44.
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I'm beginning to suspect that SASless is a troll; but that may not be the whole story because I seem to detect a touch of waltishness about some of his posts on various threads.
Or is it just me?
Rgds SOS
Or is it just me?
Rgds SOS
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SASLess is someone who I hold in the highest of regard although I completely disagree with his views regarding his latest comments.
Ironic how Afghanistan was invaded to remove the Taliban and here we are negotiating with these same radicals regarding our withdrawal from that country.
Ironic how Afghanistan was invaded to remove the Taliban and here we are negotiating with these same radicals regarding our withdrawal from that country.
SOSL......why don't you start a thread and we can discuss it....or will you do your usual thing and "Pop in....Pop off....and Piss off!"?
You seem to have a reluctance to hang around upon being challenged to defend your comments....as noticed in multiple threads and forums....and it doesn't matter who it is that throws down the gauntlet at you.
When challenged you do a runner.....how about this time.....care to start that thread and prove your allegations you just made or is this yet another one of your personal attacks you enjoy making then hiding in the woodwork for a while?
Either stand up or be known as a Dick Head!
You seem to have a reluctance to hang around upon being challenged to defend your comments....as noticed in multiple threads and forums....and it doesn't matter who it is that throws down the gauntlet at you.
When challenged you do a runner.....how about this time.....care to start that thread and prove your allegations you just made or is this yet another one of your personal attacks you enjoy making then hiding in the woodwork for a while?
Either stand up or be known as a Dick Head!
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SOSL
I think it might be you.
I could think of others who have far less cred than SaSless who
at least stays and discusses his views.
Re Walt, I think he posted something again the other day that
proves he is at the other end of the scale to a Walt. If you didn't
see it, do some research on his posts.
SOSL - you threw out a challenge so suggest you start a thread where you two can thrash it out and you can back up what you have insinuated.
If your not prepared to back up what you say, I think you might be down at the Walt end of the scale.
I think it might be you.
I could think of others who have far less cred than SaSless who
at least stays and discusses his views.
Re Walt, I think he posted something again the other day that
proves he is at the other end of the scale to a Walt. If you didn't
see it, do some research on his posts.
SOSL - you threw out a challenge so suggest you start a thread where you two can thrash it out and you can back up what you have insinuated.
If your not prepared to back up what you say, I think you might be down at the Walt end of the scale.
Last edited by 500N; 17th Sep 2012 at 12:49.
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TheHelpfulStacker, your comment was:
in response to:
Your implication (indicated by your disagreement) is that because they are religious then they are likely to have medical issues. The logical error is to assume that the link is directly between strong religious belief and mental health issues rather than there being other factors which may cause such events (e.g. poverty). While it is possible that some of them do have mental health issues, it is not a logical step to say that they do, nor is it a logical step to link it to religiousness.
SASless, you're still promoting acting like a barbarian.
As a healthcare professional I disagree. Many indicators found when dealing with mental health patients are also found when dealing with people who have strong religious beliefs.
These demonstrators do not have rabies or any other medical issue, they simply live in a culture that has different values to those that I live by.
SASless, you're still promoting acting like a barbarian.
SASless, you're still promoting acting like a barbarian.
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PTT,
I'm not sure how you drew all that from my comment but it is completely incorrect.
I wasn't stating that people with strong religious beliefs have mental health issues, just that the actions of people with strong religious beliefs have parallels with indicators used within the mental health profession to diagnose those who do.
If you are trying to draw an implication from my comments then it could as easily be religious people can have mental health issues also and that such issues could be mis-diagnosed as being 'religious belief'.
To add to my comments though, the question of whether religious belief is a type of mental health issue though is open to debate. There was an interesting meta-study conducted into religion and mental health a while back by Charles H. Hackney which, among other things, questioned just this point.
Your implication (indicated by your disagreement) is that because they are religious then they are likely to have medical issues. The logical error is to assume that the link is directly between strong religious belief and mental health issues rather than there being other factors which may cause such events (e.g. poverty). While it is possible that some of them do have mental health issues, it is not a logical step to say that they do, nor is it a logical step to link it to religiousness.
I wasn't stating that people with strong religious beliefs have mental health issues, just that the actions of people with strong religious beliefs have parallels with indicators used within the mental health profession to diagnose those who do.
If you are trying to draw an implication from my comments then it could as easily be religious people can have mental health issues also and that such issues could be mis-diagnosed as being 'religious belief'.
To add to my comments though, the question of whether religious belief is a type of mental health issue though is open to debate. There was an interesting meta-study conducted into religion and mental health a while back by Charles H. Hackney which, among other things, questioned just this point.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 17th Sep 2012 at 16:00. Reason: Spelling