US Ambassador killed in Libya
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Suggestions that Ambassador Stevens met with Turkish Diplomats earlier in the day and he was the conduit enabling Syrian Free Army / Al Qaeda getting tons and tons of Libyan weapons add more and more to the mess.
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What amazes me the most is that the west went in and removed Ghadaffi to save the people of this city! What a total waste of time that was. Ghadaffi was saying there were Al Qaeda in Benghazi and thats why his forces were attacking it. It does seem rather odd we are in the game of supporting Al Qaeda and other like minded groups and actually fighting their enemies for them. Said groups were probably delighted that the west removed Ghadaffi for them, certainly made their lives much easier. Now said groups hope we can remove Assad for them in Syria. If this was a plot for a tv show people would not watch it as they would say its to stupid to be real!
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Originally Posted by 500N
Glojo
Unless we have all the facts, it is hard to say.
You don't need SAM's to bring down a helo, RPG and 50 cal
are perfectly capable and they had RPG's as it is on the video.
The initial attack was 20 people.
Did the large number of demonstrators come later or before ?
Re moving them, use of the friendly militia to go in and get them ?
Unless we have all the facts, it is hard to say.
You don't need SAM's to bring down a helo, RPG and 50 cal
are perfectly capable and they had RPG's as it is on the video.
The initial attack was 20 people.
Did the large number of demonstrators come later or before ?
Re moving them, use of the friendly militia to go in and get them ?
Unfortunately in some parts of the World Al Jazeera News is as popular as a pork chop in a Synagogue, but for a fairly balanced coverage I find it to be very informative. I guess it might have a slight anti Western bias but we should remember how it has been banned from entering a number of Middle eastern countries because of its anti Radical stance. This station managed to film some of the demonstration and there were quite literally thousands of demonstrators and by thousands, I do mean just that.
I think the 20 number might have been those that were actively involved in the murder of the US staff at that consulate as opposed to the thousands of demonstrators that were protesting against the film.
It is now accepted by the West that the film protesters were not involved in that assault, the operation was pre planned and as you correctly point out:
You don't need SAM's to bring down a helo, RPG and 50 cal
are perfectly capable and they had RPG's as it is on the video.
are perfectly capable and they had RPG's as it is on the video.
If the senior military advisers to the Commander in Chief gave advice which was ignored and those lives were lost as a direct result then surely the honourable thing for them is to resign!! That way the public would be able to read the resignation letter which no doubt would avoid any embarrassing or contentious remarks but the letter would still speak VERY LOUD and VERY CLEAR.
Folks....especially the Chattering Class that suggest the "right" course of action was taken by Obama/Dempsey/Ham and others NOT in Benghazi that night....listen up.
The American Embassy in Tripoli sent a small group of Security Operators to Benghazi. They reinforced some CIA operators already in Benghazi. The CIA and for a while the State Department folks in Benghazi were in direct contact with Tripoli and Washington. Other major Combatant Commands were linked to those communications. The CIA and State Department folks were being assisted by local Militia elements that had firearms and ground transportation.
Two former SEALs and other former SpecOps troops were among the CIA and State Department Security Operators in the Tripoli and Benghazi Detachments. One of the former SEALs was spotting targets using a Laser and was in direct communication with someone that was RECORDING his radio transmissions.
There was at least one....maybe two Drones overhead....one is assumed to have been armed with Hellfire Missiles. The Contingency Plan called for use of AC-130 Spectre gunships based at Sigonella, Italy. The SEAL spotting the targets with the Laser was heard to ask "Where's the ******* Spectre?".
The Tripoli Detachment landed at the Benghazi Airport and was transported by the local militia in ground vehicles to the CIA Annex in Benghazi.
This was a Terrorist Attack.....this was not Mogadishu where very large portions of the population were part of the local Warlords Army which was hostile to the US Forces. In fact....a fair proportion of the Benghazi population are quite friendly to the US presence.
The abject failure of the Obama Administration to adequately assist the Americans under attack in Benghazi cannot be denied, mitigated, excused or over looked. I don't care how you spin it, deny it, or try to ignore it....when Military force is available....we should use it to defend fellow Americans who are under armed attack by Terrorists.
We have a solemn duty to put our own selves at risk to protect our own.
Listen to this short video.....an informal speech by a Fighter Pilot named Ritchie.
Brig. Gen. Steve Ritchie and the Rescue of Roger Locher - YouTube
You may remember a film called "Bat 21" based upon this story. Don't tell me we do not place a high value upon saving our fellows who are in great danger? I wonder how our Senior Military Commanders have gotten to the point they will quietly turn their backs on their own as happened in Benghazi? How can anyone wearing the Uniform stand in front of a mirror having made such a decision?
I suggest there should have been some Stars thrown on some desks that night....and some Politicians be told to find someone else to carry out the order to "Stand Down"...."Observe, Film, and Listen" but do nothing to assist the guys under attack. When do we just simply write off 30 of our fellow Americans?
BAT 21
The American Embassy in Tripoli sent a small group of Security Operators to Benghazi. They reinforced some CIA operators already in Benghazi. The CIA and for a while the State Department folks in Benghazi were in direct contact with Tripoli and Washington. Other major Combatant Commands were linked to those communications. The CIA and State Department folks were being assisted by local Militia elements that had firearms and ground transportation.
Two former SEALs and other former SpecOps troops were among the CIA and State Department Security Operators in the Tripoli and Benghazi Detachments. One of the former SEALs was spotting targets using a Laser and was in direct communication with someone that was RECORDING his radio transmissions.
There was at least one....maybe two Drones overhead....one is assumed to have been armed with Hellfire Missiles. The Contingency Plan called for use of AC-130 Spectre gunships based at Sigonella, Italy. The SEAL spotting the targets with the Laser was heard to ask "Where's the ******* Spectre?".
The Tripoli Detachment landed at the Benghazi Airport and was transported by the local militia in ground vehicles to the CIA Annex in Benghazi.
This was a Terrorist Attack.....this was not Mogadishu where very large portions of the population were part of the local Warlords Army which was hostile to the US Forces. In fact....a fair proportion of the Benghazi population are quite friendly to the US presence.
The abject failure of the Obama Administration to adequately assist the Americans under attack in Benghazi cannot be denied, mitigated, excused or over looked. I don't care how you spin it, deny it, or try to ignore it....when Military force is available....we should use it to defend fellow Americans who are under armed attack by Terrorists.
We have a solemn duty to put our own selves at risk to protect our own.
Listen to this short video.....an informal speech by a Fighter Pilot named Ritchie.
Brig. Gen. Steve Ritchie and the Rescue of Roger Locher - YouTube
You may remember a film called "Bat 21" based upon this story. Don't tell me we do not place a high value upon saving our fellows who are in great danger? I wonder how our Senior Military Commanders have gotten to the point they will quietly turn their backs on their own as happened in Benghazi? How can anyone wearing the Uniform stand in front of a mirror having made such a decision?
I suggest there should have been some Stars thrown on some desks that night....and some Politicians be told to find someone else to carry out the order to "Stand Down"...."Observe, Film, and Listen" but do nothing to assist the guys under attack. When do we just simply write off 30 of our fellow Americans?
BAT 21
Last edited by SASless; 1st Nov 2012 at 12:37.
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Mr Stevens, with his Libyan experience was in the country to coordinate our support for one of the weapons we used to defeat Qaddafi (Al Qaeda).
Logically, as the man on the spot after Q's fall, Mr Stevens became Ambassador.
He was killed by the people we supported (Al Qaeda).
It's an embarrassment which needs to be 'managed'
These people aren't trying to rescue Ambassador Stevens.
Our weapon: The Database
Logically, as the man on the spot after Q's fall, Mr Stevens became Ambassador.
He was killed by the people we supported (Al Qaeda).
It's an embarrassment which needs to be 'managed'
These people aren't trying to rescue Ambassador Stevens.
Our weapon: The Database
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"The Tripoli Detachment landed at the Benghazi Airport and was transported by the local militia in ground vehicles to the CIA Annex in Benghazi."
Glojo
I knew that the local militia had been used but couldn't find a reference
so didn't include it. SaSless has so now I will include it.
The place was attacked by 20 people.
How big is the US friendly militia in Benghazi ? Thousands.
Why didn't they use them to go back and get them out. I saw a reference to it once but can't find it again but no need for US boots on the ground if you have friendlies already there.
The least they could have done is have air assets available and in the air
so that if and when required they could be called on at short notice.
Anyway, I've said my piece and plenty of other examples of rescues have been provided - I'll add the F117 Pilot's rescue in Europe.
Glojo
I knew that the local militia had been used but couldn't find a reference
so didn't include it. SaSless has so now I will include it.
The place was attacked by 20 people.
How big is the US friendly militia in Benghazi ? Thousands.
Why didn't they use them to go back and get them out. I saw a reference to it once but can't find it again but no need for US boots on the ground if you have friendlies already there.
The least they could have done is have air assets available and in the air
so that if and when required they could be called on at short notice.
Anyway, I've said my piece and plenty of other examples of rescues have been provided - I'll add the F117 Pilot's rescue in Europe.
Orac/Sas
This article shows you are so full of s and brings into question if you ever served in actual combat. No one can launch cross nation action in 1- 2 hours. A senior general said the heavy fist force was 24 hours out.
The response of the govt protected lives after a sucker punch. Some of those do get through. Face facts the lives lost, while extremely tragic, equates to the results of one daily HUMMER load road side bomb in Iraq after mission accomplished was declared.
Currently Libya is not an enemy, so it would be bad form to "nuke" a city for political cover. Leaders do not do that, Chickenhawks do.
Sas: You never saw hero's lost in an ambush? Did you ever not get there in time, and you probably never went more than 100 miles? Unlike Vietnam, Libya is not lost. If it is eventually, it is 100000 times cheaper than the failure in Vietnam and 10000 times cheaper than Iraq.
The SultanCIA rushed to save diplomats as Libya attack was underway - The Washington Post
This article shows you are so full of s and brings into question if you ever served in actual combat. No one can launch cross nation action in 1- 2 hours. A senior general said the heavy fist force was 24 hours out.
The response of the govt protected lives after a sucker punch. Some of those do get through. Face facts the lives lost, while extremely tragic, equates to the results of one daily HUMMER load road side bomb in Iraq after mission accomplished was declared.
Currently Libya is not an enemy, so it would be bad form to "nuke" a city for political cover. Leaders do not do that, Chickenhawks do.
Sas: You never saw hero's lost in an ambush? Did you ever not get there in time, and you probably never went more than 100 miles? Unlike Vietnam, Libya is not lost. If it is eventually, it is 100000 times cheaper than the failure in Vietnam and 10000 times cheaper than Iraq.
The SultanCIA rushed to save diplomats as Libya attack was underway - The Washington Post
CIA confirms role in US consulate attack in Benghazi - Telegraph
Although this is probably a rehash of the Washington Post article, it suggests that things were not as simple as it seemed. You can't just cherry pick all the perceived wrong doings by a Democrat Commander in chief. I haven't got the time or space to do the same thing with the last Republican President.
Although this is probably a rehash of the Washington Post article, it suggests that things were not as simple as it seemed. You can't just cherry pick all the perceived wrong doings by a Democrat Commander in chief. I haven't got the time or space to do the same thing with the last Republican President.
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"We have a solemn duty to put our own selves at risk to protect our own."
regretfully the President of the United States has to look at a much, much bigger picture
that's why he's there and that's why he is charge of the military
regretfully the President of the United States has to look at a much, much bigger picture
that's why he's there and that's why he is charge of the military
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If the most powerful military in the world was powerless to do anything considering all the resources in the region then its a poor state of affairs. I would imagine the failing is of more of a political nature than a military one though.
Why the hell was something like this not anticipated! We all knew the nature of some in Benghazi before the war even began. Why the hell was the Ambassadors security not far more comprehensive!
Personally I think the whole Afghan war was a waste of time and money from day one and we should have left Ghadaffi in charge. If we had then this incident would likely never have happend.
We must stop playing games in other peoples nations thinking we know best.
Why the hell was something like this not anticipated! We all knew the nature of some in Benghazi before the war even began. Why the hell was the Ambassadors security not far more comprehensive!
Personally I think the whole Afghan war was a waste of time and money from day one and we should have left Ghadaffi in charge. If we had then this incident would likely never have happend.
We must stop playing games in other peoples nations thinking we know best.
Unfortunately, the law of unintended consequences applies. Remove or help to remove a dictator in particular in the Middle East, this is what you get, a power vacuum, and disorder. Sometimes a country needs a strong foot on the throat of the population to maintain relative peace. Iraq and Yugoslavia were cases in point.
The Chattering Chavs are back.....and I wonder how their perspective would change if it were Brits instead of Americans.....and more specifically if it were their sweet tushes that were hanging out that night while their PM pondered his tea leaves over what decision should be made?
Thread Starter
The Chattering Chavs are back.....and I wonder how their perspective would change if it were Brits instead of Americans.....and more specifically if it were their sweet tushes that were hanging out that night while their PM pondered his tea leaves over what decision should be made?
When you leave diplomats hanging you send a message to others that if the TSHTF you are on your own.
If the supposedly pro US militia in Benghazi was around then nothing to stop using them and providing some close air support "if requested", after all isn't this what was happening last year.
Seems strange that you allow a situation continue for hours on the ground without using your allies...........unless they involved anyway.
Thread Starter
I think we all know that if you serve in the forces there is always the risk that you may "cut adrift" if suits those further up the ladder
Coincidence?
SAS,
Your ( longer ) post is on point.
Does it seem oddly coincidental that a Sr Army General and a USN Strike Force Commander get new jobs shortly after the event?
John
Your ( longer ) post is on point.
Does it seem oddly coincidental that a Sr Army General and a USN Strike Force Commander get new jobs shortly after the event?
John
John,
General Ham was or should have been directly involved.....the Admiral was on the Stennis in the Persian Gulf which is Fifth Fleet Water. Perhaps I might get my ruler out and actually measure the distance from a point south of Hormuz to Benghazi....but it would seem a long way away for any Air/Ground reaction as compared to Sigonella in Italy.
I wonder if there was a Carrier in the Med which is Sixth Fleet water?
We have two Carriers in the Persian Gulf now....the Stennis deployed early due to tension with Iran.
General Ham was or should have been directly involved.....the Admiral was on the Stennis in the Persian Gulf which is Fifth Fleet Water. Perhaps I might get my ruler out and actually measure the distance from a point south of Hormuz to Benghazi....but it would seem a long way away for any Air/Ground reaction as compared to Sigonella in Italy.
I wonder if there was a Carrier in the Med which is Sixth Fleet water?
We have two Carriers in the Persian Gulf now....the Stennis deployed early due to tension with Iran.