US Ambassador killed in Libya
The Chattering Chavs are back.....and I wonder how their perspective would change if it were Brits instead of Americans.....and more specifically if it were their sweet tushes that were hanging out that night while their PM pondered his tea leaves over what decision should be made?
RiP to the guys who have been lost and condolences to their families.
Coincidence
SAS, yes the USN Admiral is a separate issue. So, only the Army General reassignment is curious.
Some of the postings on this issue brought to mind the use of the code word, " Broken Arrow " by Lt Col Moore, and I got the impression that some people do not, amazingly, agree with the concept that if an American unit is in trouble, everyone capable drops their whatever and gets after it. Perhaps I misread.
John
Some of the postings on this issue brought to mind the use of the code word, " Broken Arrow " by Lt Col Moore, and I got the impression that some people do not, amazingly, agree with the concept that if an American unit is in trouble, everyone capable drops their whatever and gets after it. Perhaps I misread.
John
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From The Times online today
IMHO Obama is going to win again......anyone fancy a bet on it?
An American special operations team and two teams of anti-terrorist Marines were ordered to fly to the rescue of diplomatic staff and CIA officers in Benghazi on the night the US Ambassador was killed, The Times has been told. But by the time they were ready to move it was too late.
Leon Panetta, the US Defence Secretary, was at the White House with President Obama when the attack on the US consulate by armed militants began on September 11. He returned to the Pentagon for a meeting with General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, and General Carter Ham, commander of Africa Command, who was in Washington.
They agreed that the Americans in Benghazi needed military help. Under Mr Panetta’s orders, a special operations team on a training mission in Europe was alerted “to drop everything” and fly to Sigonella in Sicily, a staging-post before heading for Benghazi, a US official told The Times.
Two platoons of US Marines serving as Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Teams in the Spanish naval base of Rota were also ordered to prepare for a rescue mission in Benghazi.
The decision to send in rescue teams contradicts reports that have emerged over the past week claiming that an appeal for military help by paramilitary CIA officers under fire in Benghazi was denied. Republican politicians seized on the reports to demand an explanation from President Obama.
It has been rumoured in blogs this week that General Ham was so upset to be told that military aid was denied that he disobeyed orders and authorised a special operations rescue. As a result he was allegedly relieved of his command.
A Pentagon spokesman said that these claims were “false, false, false”. The official said that General Ham was authorised by Mr Panetta to organise a rescue team and signals were sent immediately to the special operations team in Europe and the Marines in Rota to get ready for battle.
The attack in Benghazi began at about 9.45pm and lasted around seven hours. Militants moved from the burnt-out consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and Sean Smith, another diplomat, died to a CIA annexe a mile away. The militants knew of the annexe and a full-scale attack began, lasting several hours. Two former US Navy Seals died. While the violence raged the rescue teams were making preparations to intervene. However, the special operations team took several hours to reach Sigonella, and by that time “it was all over”, the official said.
The Marines were too late but one of the platoons still flew to Libya. The mission changed to providing security for the US embassy in Tripoli. Mr Panetta said last Thursday that it was risky to send military “into harm’s way” without having a full picture of what was going on — a remark that may have helped to generate some of the speculative reports that military aid had been denied.
The official confirmed that an unarmed surveillance drone operating in Libya at the time of the attack had to be redirected to Benghazi. By the time it got there it was running out of fuel and had to be replaced by another drone, also unarmed. So there was no continuous “real-time” imagery flowing back to the Pentagon to give Mr Panetta, General Dempsey and General Ham a clear view of what was happening.
General Ham, 60, indicated to the Pentagon in June that he wished to retire for personal reasons. His proposed successor is General David Rodriguez.
Leon Panetta, the US Defence Secretary, was at the White House with President Obama when the attack on the US consulate by armed militants began on September 11. He returned to the Pentagon for a meeting with General Martin Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, and General Carter Ham, commander of Africa Command, who was in Washington.
They agreed that the Americans in Benghazi needed military help. Under Mr Panetta’s orders, a special operations team on a training mission in Europe was alerted “to drop everything” and fly to Sigonella in Sicily, a staging-post before heading for Benghazi, a US official told The Times.
Two platoons of US Marines serving as Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Teams in the Spanish naval base of Rota were also ordered to prepare for a rescue mission in Benghazi.
The decision to send in rescue teams contradicts reports that have emerged over the past week claiming that an appeal for military help by paramilitary CIA officers under fire in Benghazi was denied. Republican politicians seized on the reports to demand an explanation from President Obama.
It has been rumoured in blogs this week that General Ham was so upset to be told that military aid was denied that he disobeyed orders and authorised a special operations rescue. As a result he was allegedly relieved of his command.
A Pentagon spokesman said that these claims were “false, false, false”. The official said that General Ham was authorised by Mr Panetta to organise a rescue team and signals were sent immediately to the special operations team in Europe and the Marines in Rota to get ready for battle.
The attack in Benghazi began at about 9.45pm and lasted around seven hours. Militants moved from the burnt-out consulate where Ambassador Chris Stevens and Sean Smith, another diplomat, died to a CIA annexe a mile away. The militants knew of the annexe and a full-scale attack began, lasting several hours. Two former US Navy Seals died. While the violence raged the rescue teams were making preparations to intervene. However, the special operations team took several hours to reach Sigonella, and by that time “it was all over”, the official said.
The Marines were too late but one of the platoons still flew to Libya. The mission changed to providing security for the US embassy in Tripoli. Mr Panetta said last Thursday that it was risky to send military “into harm’s way” without having a full picture of what was going on — a remark that may have helped to generate some of the speculative reports that military aid had been denied.
The official confirmed that an unarmed surveillance drone operating in Libya at the time of the attack had to be redirected to Benghazi. By the time it got there it was running out of fuel and had to be replaced by another drone, also unarmed. So there was no continuous “real-time” imagery flowing back to the Pentagon to give Mr Panetta, General Dempsey and General Ham a clear view of what was happening.
General Ham, 60, indicated to the Pentagon in June that he wished to retire for personal reasons. His proposed successor is General David Rodriguez.
IMHO Obama is going to win again......anyone fancy a bet on it?
Obama may escape....but he will not "win" on Tuesday!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Two things wrong with that report, lj101, firstly it states that Panetta ordered in troops and secondly that General Ham was there and received and actioned the orders.
The first is contradicted by Panetta, the second by General Ham. Which sort of demolished the whole account.
Washington Times: General at center of Benghazi-gate controversy retiring
........The questions concerning General Ham's role in the September 11 events continue to percolate. Congressman Jason Chaffetz, Utah Republican, said that General Ham told him during a visit to Libya that he had never been asked to provide military support for the Americans under attack in Benghazi. Former United States Ambassador to the U.N. John R, Bolton also mentioned Mr. Chaffetz's account, and contrasted it with Mr. Panetta's statement that General Ham had been part of the team that made the decision not to send in forces. "General Ham has now been characterized in two obviously conflicting ways," Mr. Bolton concluded. "Somebody ought to find out what he actually was saying on September the eleventh."
The first is contradicted by Panetta, the second by General Ham. Which sort of demolished the whole account.
Washington Times: General at center of Benghazi-gate controversy retiring
........The questions concerning General Ham's role in the September 11 events continue to percolate. Congressman Jason Chaffetz, Utah Republican, said that General Ham told him during a visit to Libya that he had never been asked to provide military support for the Americans under attack in Benghazi. Former United States Ambassador to the U.N. John R, Bolton also mentioned Mr. Chaffetz's account, and contrasted it with Mr. Panetta's statement that General Ham had been part of the team that made the decision not to send in forces. "General Ham has now been characterized in two obviously conflicting ways," Mr. Bolton concluded. "Somebody ought to find out what he actually was saying on September the eleventh."
It will ultimately wind up being political football where points are scored but no one is taken to Court for things like Perjury, Obstruction of Justice, and related charges.
The fall back position is the order was to do whatever was possible....move the troops into position, ready aircraft, but do not pull any triggers real or literally witout the President's Approval. By the time it got staffed, planned, implemented, and reported BACK UP the chain....the situation was overtaken by events and thus there was no need to order the Troops and Aircraft to the Rescue.....with a short snide...."There! See! We did everything we could do!"
Of course the Obama regime will never answer questions about the before and after of the attack.....as both of those would skewer them on their very own Lance.
This Administration....and President has never....never.....never.....accepted responsibility or blame for anything that could remotely be seen as "negative", "bad", or "wrong". Why should they start now?
The Republicans don't have the Balls to play hard ball in Congress over these things as they think it will keep the Democrats from doing so to them in future administrations (though they are absolutely wrong in that).....and the Main Stream Media is already seen to be spiking the story along with so many other stories.
The American People have a perfect opportunity to respond to the Obama Regime on Tuesday.....by voting his ass out of office. He will get the message then!
The fall back position is the order was to do whatever was possible....move the troops into position, ready aircraft, but do not pull any triggers real or literally witout the President's Approval. By the time it got staffed, planned, implemented, and reported BACK UP the chain....the situation was overtaken by events and thus there was no need to order the Troops and Aircraft to the Rescue.....with a short snide...."There! See! We did everything we could do!"
Of course the Obama regime will never answer questions about the before and after of the attack.....as both of those would skewer them on their very own Lance.
This Administration....and President has never....never.....never.....accepted responsibility or blame for anything that could remotely be seen as "negative", "bad", or "wrong". Why should they start now?
The Republicans don't have the Balls to play hard ball in Congress over these things as they think it will keep the Democrats from doing so to them in future administrations (though they are absolutely wrong in that).....and the Main Stream Media is already seen to be spiking the story along with so many other stories.
The American People have a perfect opportunity to respond to the Obama Regime on Tuesday.....by voting his ass out of office. He will get the message then!
ORAC
John Bolton has no credibility in the world of rationale people. Hell he makes Sara Palin look like an informed foreign policy expert.
Any war fighter knows unless you are literally across the street mounting an op in minutes is not possible. Everything was done and the response limited the casualties to an unfortunate four individuals. This loss was ten percent of the people in harms way so the response team did well.
One of the leaders of the attack has already been dealt with. Other retribution is coming. Unlike Shrub President Obama keeps his promises to hunt our enemies down.
The Sultan
John Bolton has no credibility in the world of rationale people. Hell he makes Sara Palin look like an informed foreign policy expert.
Any war fighter knows unless you are literally across the street mounting an op in minutes is not possible. Everything was done and the response limited the casualties to an unfortunate four individuals. This loss was ten percent of the people in harms way so the response team did well.
One of the leaders of the attack has already been dealt with. Other retribution is coming. Unlike Shrub President Obama keeps his promises to hunt our enemies down.
The Sultan
Last edited by The Sultan; 3rd Nov 2012 at 15:55.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Sultan, the links are to the original statements, Bolton's credibility is irrelevant. Or are you saying Ham lied to the Congressman and Panetta lied to the Senate committee?
Sultan
Sometimes it helps to have a baseline. You speak for all warfighters when you say "any warfighter". If you're speaking for me, could I at least know the background you come from?
Thanks
Sometimes it helps to have a baseline. You speak for all warfighters when you say "any warfighter". If you're speaking for me, could I at least know the background you come from?
Thanks
I guess the Brits were in Benghazi and are miffed they did not get a call to assist the American Consulate during the attack.
Odd....I thought War Horses ride to the sound of the Guns?
Exclusive: Security officials on the ground in Libya challenge CIA account | Fox News
Odd....I thought War Horses ride to the sound of the Guns?
Exclusive: Security officials on the ground in Libya challenge CIA account | Fox News
Last edited by SASless; 3rd Nov 2012 at 19:26.
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Sultan,
Had some down time and notice your BS. The USMC routinely has units on less than 1 hour notice. There were both a FAST company and a 130 Force Recon detachment “training” on Sigonella. There is no training outside of eyeball liberty and 16 ounce curls in Sicily for these units. To move either requires approval from two different chains of command and are briefed at the secretarial level. The FAST unit is HQ’d in Rota but had moved forces to Sig along with the FR Marines.
The non-existent U.S. Army unit has still a different chain of command.
Either quite a few different chains of command were being extraordinarily wasteful in moving high value/low density forces to places with little training opportunity or they had a pretty good clue as to something about to happen. That something consisting of information coming up through the Intel side and out into the military channels spanning three continents.
I cannot speak for others but I have seen friends killed in helos, and fixed wing, and on the ground in combat.
Take a look at google maps, just South are good places for either HLZ or DZ. The non-existent U.S. Army unit and FR are jump capable while the FAST company is not jump capable.
Cruise speed of a CH-53E (HC-4 based on Sig) is approximately 165KTAS, -130 300KTAS, and higher for a C-17. All are faster, carry more, etc. than the DC-3 used to get from Tripoli.
Quite doable in any number of different ways using a combination of some pretty well trained forces, at least two of which were orientated on Benghazi.
West Coast,
Sultan does not speak for or like any war fighter I know, regardless of uniform.
S/F, FOG
Had some down time and notice your BS. The USMC routinely has units on less than 1 hour notice. There were both a FAST company and a 130 Force Recon detachment “training” on Sigonella. There is no training outside of eyeball liberty and 16 ounce curls in Sicily for these units. To move either requires approval from two different chains of command and are briefed at the secretarial level. The FAST unit is HQ’d in Rota but had moved forces to Sig along with the FR Marines.
The non-existent U.S. Army unit has still a different chain of command.
Either quite a few different chains of command were being extraordinarily wasteful in moving high value/low density forces to places with little training opportunity or they had a pretty good clue as to something about to happen. That something consisting of information coming up through the Intel side and out into the military channels spanning three continents.
I cannot speak for others but I have seen friends killed in helos, and fixed wing, and on the ground in combat.
Take a look at google maps, just South are good places for either HLZ or DZ. The non-existent U.S. Army unit and FR are jump capable while the FAST company is not jump capable.
Cruise speed of a CH-53E (HC-4 based on Sig) is approximately 165KTAS, -130 300KTAS, and higher for a C-17. All are faster, carry more, etc. than the DC-3 used to get from Tripoli.
Quite doable in any number of different ways using a combination of some pretty well trained forces, at least two of which were orientated on Benghazi.
West Coast,
Sultan does not speak for or like any war fighter I know, regardless of uniform.
S/F, FOG
Last edited by FOG; 7th Nov 2012 at 00:20.
The closest Sultan has come to Military Service is handing out hamburgers at Window Two as Real Warriors drive through for lunch.
So....the Obama Administration boycotts the largest Cable News Network....but briefs the Obama bought media.....how's that for transparency folks?
The Drones overlooking the Libyan Chemical sites not far from Benghazi are allowed to be Armed by mutual agreement.....yet no Armed Drone found its way to the Consulate despite the CIA guys having Ground Lasers and kept asking where the Air Support was?
I guess the Obama Regime wants us to believe that line of ****?
What laser capability did Benghazi team have? | Fox News
The Drones overlooking the Libyan Chemical sites not far from Benghazi are allowed to be Armed by mutual agreement.....yet no Armed Drone found its way to the Consulate despite the CIA guys having Ground Lasers and kept asking where the Air Support was?
I guess the Obama Regime wants us to believe that line of ****?
What laser capability did Benghazi team have? | Fox News
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That is old news....new testimony coming up with General Petraeus and General Clapper along with one other Administration Intelligence type testifying.
Why the Republicans done't get their thumb out and call Clinton, Panetta, Dempsey, Rice, and Ham as well....defeats me. They should have done that within two weeks of the attack and BEFORE the election.
Why the Republicans done't get their thumb out and call Clinton, Panetta, Dempsey, Rice, and Ham as well....defeats me. They should have done that within two weeks of the attack and BEFORE the election.
SASless.
You say:
And in the very same post just a few lines further on you continue:
adding...
What was it you said about political footballs and points scoring?
The American people have spoken, but it seems that you're the one who hasn't got the message.
You say:
It will ultimately wind up being political football where points are scored
Of course the Obama regime will never answer questions about the before and after of the attack.....as both of those would skewer them on their very own Lance.
This Administration....and President has never....never.....never.....accepted responsibility or blame for anything that could remotely be seen as "negative", "bad", or "wrong". Why should they start now?
The American People have a perfect opportunity to respond to the Obama Regime on Tuesday.....by voting his ass out of office. He will get the message then!
Mel.....the Media did not allow Libya to become an issue...they have spiked the story. The debates had some mention of it but as you well recall Candy Crowley, despite being the Moderator of the debate, injected herself into the debate and sided (quite wrongly both on the rules and factually) with Obama thus effectively negating Romney's very accurate comments on the matter. She later admitted being wrong on her facts but the Media made no real mention of that and thus Obama was assisted in dodging what could have been a very serious wound.
Obama, Clinton, Rice, Panetta, Dempsey, and Carney shall not be confronted with legal liabilities and the upcoming Congressional Hearings will only result in two things.....one showing how inept and sad the Obama Administration acted before, during, and after re the Attack on the Consulate. The Media will call it a Partisan attack by the Republicans who are seeking poltical gain over a non-issue.
The only thing I missed was the gullibility of the majority of the American electorate. I am now happily sat on the street curb and will watch the Democrats Parade to destruction. Their policies can only lead to that....as they say.....it is simple math. At some point they will spend money they do not have to the point even the Golden Goose goes bankrupt. Maybe out of the ashes will rise a society of young folks that for once fully grasp the reality that Government is not the answer but the problem. Hopefully, I will live to see that before I cash in my chips.....assuming I have any left to cash in...and there is someone with enough money left to pay me for them.
Obama, Clinton, Rice, Panetta, Dempsey, and Carney shall not be confronted with legal liabilities and the upcoming Congressional Hearings will only result in two things.....one showing how inept and sad the Obama Administration acted before, during, and after re the Attack on the Consulate. The Media will call it a Partisan attack by the Republicans who are seeking poltical gain over a non-issue.
The only thing I missed was the gullibility of the majority of the American electorate. I am now happily sat on the street curb and will watch the Democrats Parade to destruction. Their policies can only lead to that....as they say.....it is simple math. At some point they will spend money they do not have to the point even the Golden Goose goes bankrupt. Maybe out of the ashes will rise a society of young folks that for once fully grasp the reality that Government is not the answer but the problem. Hopefully, I will live to see that before I cash in my chips.....assuming I have any left to cash in...and there is someone with enough money left to pay me for them.
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"When people learn they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."
--Benjamin Franklin
A voice from the pages of history rather agrees with SASless, it would seem.
--Benjamin Franklin
A voice from the pages of history rather agrees with SASless, it would seem.