OCU and Flying Training
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BEagle,
You have so many ferkin chips on your shoulder that I fear that you have now become completely unbalanced!
Just go look in a mirror and analyse your career (which you have taken the unqualified delight in exposing on here for more years than I can remember) before others do it for you publically!!
From what I can gather, everybody who was streamed FJ GD/P in the time-scales that you expose for yourself was, at some stage, permitted to fly a single seat jet! Those who were good were allowed to continue to do so further on in their careers. Others, perhaps less fortunate in their own career optimism, flew FJ with a Nav in the back seat! You failed twice at that, then went on to fly with Navs for the rest of your operational days (I don't include QFI as Op)!
So I wouldn't start slagging off Navs or Nav School as, without them, you'd never have got airborne!
I was beginning to forgive you about some of the previous unadulterated bigoted claptrap that you have spouted on PPRuNe before but I'm feeling disinclined to continue to do so right now!
Apology accepted (if and when it comes!)
Foldie
You have so many ferkin chips on your shoulder that I fear that you have now become completely unbalanced!
Just go look in a mirror and analyse your career (which you have taken the unqualified delight in exposing on here for more years than I can remember) before others do it for you publically!!
From what I can gather, everybody who was streamed FJ GD/P in the time-scales that you expose for yourself was, at some stage, permitted to fly a single seat jet! Those who were good were allowed to continue to do so further on in their careers. Others, perhaps less fortunate in their own career optimism, flew FJ with a Nav in the back seat! You failed twice at that, then went on to fly with Navs for the rest of your operational days (I don't include QFI as Op)!
So I wouldn't start slagging off Navs or Nav School as, without them, you'd never have got airborne!
I was beginning to forgive you about some of the previous unadulterated bigoted claptrap that you have spouted on PPRuNe before but I'm feeling disinclined to continue to do so right now!
Apology accepted (if and when it comes!)
Foldie
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The worst instructors I found throughout flying training (Linton/Valley)were those that had not done very well themselves or/and had something to prove.
Perhaps thats why the Harrier and SHAR OCU (one of the hardest aircraft to operate), as well as the Harrier QWI course, were hard work but without any of the unneccessary grief.
Perhaps thats why the Harrier and SHAR OCU (one of the hardest aircraft to operate), as well as the Harrier QWI course, were hard work but without any of the unneccessary grief.
Last edited by Justanopinion; 29th Aug 2012 at 19:49.
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Its sad that a thread on OCUs degenerated into a pilots vs navs argument.
I guess its a fact that those who struggled on an OCU or a squadron - and I know having seen both sides that many did - find recourse in internet banter. Many who struggled went on to excel given help from the other cockpit. That was the strength of 2 seat aircraft. I could think of quite a few aircrew who became QWIs who passed OCU chop rides.
I guess its a fact that those who struggled on an OCU or a squadron - and I know having seen both sides that many did - find recourse in internet banter. Many who struggled went on to excel given help from the other cockpit. That was the strength of 2 seat aircraft. I could think of quite a few aircrew who became QWIs who passed OCU chop rides.
Last edited by Geehovah; 29th Aug 2012 at 19:29.
Then there was the ridiculous navigator course at Finningley. There were so mant recourses that it was once proved that most baby navigators did something like 1.4 x the normal course. "So why not make the normal course 1.4 x its current length and save yourselves all that paperwork?", I once asked a staff navigator...
But then again, they were only half-wing half-brains.....
But then again, they were only half-wing half-brains.....
Also 'they' referred to the boneheads who wouldn't accept that their course was inadequate for their students. 'They' were indeed half-wing half-brains - the baby navs wouldn't actually have had a brevet at that stage, of course and I'm surprised you didn't realise that.
The most ridiculous (but true) 'navigator' story I ever heard was recounted by en ex-Nimrod chum of mine. Once upon a time, he'd just wrestled the jet down the approach one filthy wet night at Kinloss, only to go around at minima. Then the other pilot had a go, still with no luck. As they went round the second time, their navigator captain piped up "Couldn't you go a bit lower next time?". Cue flurry of straps from the 1st pilot, who stormed down to the navigators' desk to announce "Right! All yours it is then, I'll be in the back drinking coffee!"..... And off they went to their diversion!
Feel free to apologise for your vitriol, foldie, should you be so inclined.
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Nope!
Despite your protestation of innocence, by using the term 'they' you deliberately wrap us all under the one banner of 'half-wing half-brains', which is derogatory and very insulting. But then I have read your 'shooting from the hip' comments, for more years than I care to remember, about how you disagree with this and disagree with that and how nobody could ever be more perfect than you or how much better you'd have run the RAF. You criticise aspects of the RAF that you are well removed from in both time and space and, I suspect, have an over-inflated ego bigger than Everest!
Everybody is, I am happy to say, entitled to an opinion but yours has reached boundaries well beyond the average man.
So no apology from me, BEagle, you've overstepped the mark this time.
Foldie
Despite your protestation of innocence, by using the term 'they' you deliberately wrap us all under the one banner of 'half-wing half-brains', which is derogatory and very insulting. But then I have read your 'shooting from the hip' comments, for more years than I care to remember, about how you disagree with this and disagree with that and how nobody could ever be more perfect than you or how much better you'd have run the RAF. You criticise aspects of the RAF that you are well removed from in both time and space and, I suspect, have an over-inflated ego bigger than Everest!
Everybody is, I am happy to say, entitled to an opinion but yours has reached boundaries well beyond the average man.
So no apology from me, BEagle, you've overstepped the mark this time.
Foldie
I think it was very clear that the comment was about the course, not the navs on it. I can't see how anyone could think a dual/multi-crew man would have anything but good thoughts about fellow crew members. Isn't this getting a bit silly.
Again, did I miss something?
Again, did I miss something?
Ladies, ladies,
Back to the thread, I thought 226 OCU was a great place to learn a trade. Good mates, a great station and a thoroughly enjoyable jet. Guess I was lucky...
Back to the thread, I thought 226 OCU was a great place to learn a trade. Good mates, a great station and a thoroughly enjoyable jet. Guess I was lucky...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In the very late 80s we introduced an entirely new basic nav syllabus in the basic phase. Once the course had settled down its output continued to meet the input needs for the next phase. The first time success rate again recovered its previous pattern (well slightly better).
The course pattern saw each of the first 5 sorties practised in the sim twice. most studes completed that part of the basic phase successfully. The next 5 sorties were practised in the sim once only. It was usually at the first of this 2nd phase of basics that the first studes fell. Some continued after a re-fly and others were given a remedial package. I guess some 10% overall were washed out in the first phase.
A significant number washed out had previously failed pilot training. In contrast most selected nav at the outset would get through the whole course first time.
For a signifcant part of my tour the CNI was an ex-Bucc man and gave far more flex hours than Group thought he should and the second CNI was an ex-F4 man. Both did everything they could to get the studes through and were both instrumental in modifying the course and ultimately introducing the Tucano.
Also, I believe unlike pilot training, stude navs were supervised by a variety of pilots and navs rather than one on one for a whole phase.
Now tell me it was a staff problem and not a selection problem.
The course pattern saw each of the first 5 sorties practised in the sim twice. most studes completed that part of the basic phase successfully. The next 5 sorties were practised in the sim once only. It was usually at the first of this 2nd phase of basics that the first studes fell. Some continued after a re-fly and others were given a remedial package. I guess some 10% overall were washed out in the first phase.
A significant number washed out had previously failed pilot training. In contrast most selected nav at the outset would get through the whole course first time.
But then again, they were only half-wing half-brains
Also, I believe unlike pilot training, stude navs were supervised by a variety of pilots and navs rather than one on one for a whole phase.
Now tell me it was a staff problem and not a selection problem.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 29th Aug 2012 at 20:40.
All of us that went to an OCU were lucky, Gericault. Not knowing any better and being totally institutionalised (sp? can't be bothered) I though all my OCU courses were just fine. Hard, but fine. But who was I to judge?
That's not to say that everyone always had a completely fair ride.
That's not to say that everyone always had a completely fair ride.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 29th Aug 2012 at 20:38.
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Each sortie practised in the Sim twice? We are now back to the old, I'll show you......you do......
Now you have been shown.
(does not produce an expert, but demonstrates capability to replicate instruction, capacity, and considerabe stability)
Course design today does not structure things that way any longer.....no money.
Yet I imagine that standards are lower in initial phases of training as a result. People still get chopped, but there are so many safeguards to ensure fair process.....some get through when if the honest opinion was asked of instructors....they would be gone in a heart beat.
Now you have been shown.
(does not produce an expert, but demonstrates capability to replicate instruction, capacity, and considerabe stability)
Course design today does not structure things that way any longer.....no money.
Yet I imagine that standards are lower in initial phases of training as a result. People still get chopped, but there are so many safeguards to ensure fair process.....some get through when if the honest opinion was asked of instructors....they would be gone in a heart beat.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ralph, very true. The phrase at the time was brief-monitor-debrief.
I met the students on my course for welcome drinks on the Sunday night. We chated to them and eventually left.
As soon as I could out of the car park Mrs PN and I wrote down our assessments of who would pass and who would fail. We also put them in order. There was no conferring and we sealed the lists in an envelope.
Of 7 only 3 passed all phases. Mrs PN never served but her assessments from a couple of hours in the bar were identical with mine and we were spot on.
I think in the 70s an Army psychiatrist reported on this phenomenon: that experienced instructors could identify successful students and spent far more time proving that the other students could not meet the grade.
if the honest opinion was asked of instructors....they would be gone in a heart beat
As soon as I could out of the car park Mrs PN and I wrote down our assessments of who would pass and who would fail. We also put them in order. There was no conferring and we sealed the lists in an envelope.
Of 7 only 3 passed all phases. Mrs PN never served but her assessments from a couple of hours in the bar were identical with mine and we were spot on.
I think in the 70s an Army psychiatrist reported on this phenomenon: that experienced instructors could identify successful students and spent far more time proving that the other students could not meet the grade.
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BEagle. I was the first non-aircrew Ops officer on the Shiney fleet, and I must say what a thoroughly excellent time I had. Long hours, particularly as for 6 months I had no Ops Staff (Fitzy, if you ever read this you were worth your weight in gold). The crews were spot on with some excellent guys, happy to fill my brain with all things fun bus before firing me off down route on a crew trainer. I was even trusted to answer the phone on my own and make decisions! We didn't even mind when you tanker boys came across to join us (though it did mean we had to paint the half the corridors a different colour!). However, I crossed to the dark side not long after and went to the tri-motors across the road.
If it helps, you didn't spoil my print I just have a wry smile every now and then when I look at it on the toilet wall.
Morale of the story: being chopped is sh*t, but things generally work out ok in the end!
Rgds
Rem acu tangere
If it helps, you didn't spoil my print I just have a wry smile every now and then when I look at it on the toilet wall.
Morale of the story: being chopped is sh*t, but things generally work out ok in the end!
Rgds
Rem acu tangere
Which I think was your point?
"Drift please, nav?"
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Chill out and roll a fat one
Its a bit sad that all these Forums seem to degenerate Into mud slinging by page6-
Foldie - was I married to you for 15 years? You sound very much like Mrs SF mk1 !!!
PN - I had hoped your story of getting back to the car park with Mrs PN would lead to a spot of rumpy pumpy or a bit of dogging in Bawtry !
Bloody hell if I knew the two of you were re enacting strictly scoring baby navs I'd have PVR'd sooner !!!! In the words of Mr E Blackadder "those winter evenings on 6 FTS must have just flown by"
Any chance of sticking to the script and recounting stories of daring do?
Amusing ditties like when I was doing ACT in an F4 with the Major in the front who unbriefed snatched 7 g at the merge and managed to wedge my head in the radar for 5 minutes- I knew wearing my Mk1 bone done was a bad idea
Foldie - was I married to you for 15 years? You sound very much like Mrs SF mk1 !!!
PN - I had hoped your story of getting back to the car park with Mrs PN would lead to a spot of rumpy pumpy or a bit of dogging in Bawtry !
Bloody hell if I knew the two of you were re enacting strictly scoring baby navs I'd have PVR'd sooner !!!! In the words of Mr E Blackadder "those winter evenings on 6 FTS must have just flown by"
Any chance of sticking to the script and recounting stories of daring do?
Amusing ditties like when I was doing ACT in an F4 with the Major in the front who unbriefed snatched 7 g at the merge and managed to wedge my head in the radar for 5 minutes- I knew wearing my Mk1 bone done was a bad idea
I think PN has a point.
The demo Biggin Hill Interview tape used on the Aircrew Instructor Course was of a chopped pilot going for another branch. Just from his mannerisms on the tape, all the pilots (FJ and ME) on my course agreed he'd probably been chopped at BFTS Spin/Aeros...and it turned out we were right!
The demo Biggin Hill Interview tape used on the Aircrew Instructor Course was of a chopped pilot going for another branch. Just from his mannerisms on the tape, all the pilots (FJ and ME) on my course agreed he'd probably been chopped at BFTS Spin/Aeros...and it turned out we were right!
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 29th Aug 2012 at 23:37.
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Fighter Control
As a mere enlisted ScopeDope I loved the idea of working in War Rooms with big Tote boards, watching the raids come in and our valiant blue line race up to fend them off. "Bring 56 to Readiness 15 please, all available aircraft" and all that.
When I told the Sargent at the initial interview one of my hobbies was Wargaming (sad I know) he Said "If you like wargaming you going to love being an ASoP."
I only ever spent 2 weeks at Boulmar doing the job I had trained for, rest of the time was spent in LFA13, firing Smokey Sams, scoring Baby F111 crews bomb Haltwhistle, watching all manner of mainly 1 Group aircraft rip the sky apart.
Would not have swapped it for all the Bears coming down the gap.
But when I was told my eyesight was too bad to go for ALM (After Biggin Hill, had a place on training, but they sent me for a 'Special' eye check') I was asked if I fancied Fighter Control.
Hearing on here about the SoFC failure rate I am more surprised than I was about the OCU's.
What was it that was so challenging about it ?
Maybe I should ask elsewhere, if anyone can point me in the right direction.
When I told the Sargent at the initial interview one of my hobbies was Wargaming (sad I know) he Said "If you like wargaming you going to love being an ASoP."
I only ever spent 2 weeks at Boulmar doing the job I had trained for, rest of the time was spent in LFA13, firing Smokey Sams, scoring Baby F111 crews bomb Haltwhistle, watching all manner of mainly 1 Group aircraft rip the sky apart.
Would not have swapped it for all the Bears coming down the gap.
But when I was told my eyesight was too bad to go for ALM (After Biggin Hill, had a place on training, but they sent me for a 'Special' eye check') I was asked if I fancied Fighter Control.
Hearing on here about the SoFC failure rate I am more surprised than I was about the OCU's.
What was it that was so challenging about it ?
Maybe I should ask elsewhere, if anyone can point me in the right direction.