OCU and Flying Training
Originally Posted by Scruffy Fanny
was I married to you for 15 years? You sound very much like Mrs SF mk1 !!!
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 30th Aug 2012 at 08:36.
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Re Beagle’s observation on 6 FTS nav recourse rates – this is not a picture that I recognise. I started my nav course in the latter part of 1972 (167 cse) and recall losing only one of our number quite early on, chopped, not recoursed; the remaining dozen or so went on to complete the course in regulation time. The courses in front and behind also went through unscathed.
There were no FJ postings, mainly V-force or Nimrods (although one bound for Hercs managed to blag himself into an F-4 slot shortly after role disposal).
There were no FJ nav instructors (pre-LLTS), staff being mainly drawn from Kipper Fleet or Truckies, including maritime Shacks. The CNI looked like, and was given the name, "Tojo" – only met him once when he bollocked me for having too big a bar bill (fortunately my expenditure on chits was mainly for crisps and tomato juice – the other stuff was paid for in cash – so I was able to mount a good defence, and the bar staff were also very discreet).
Mister B
There were no FJ postings, mainly V-force or Nimrods (although one bound for Hercs managed to blag himself into an F-4 slot shortly after role disposal).
There were no FJ nav instructors (pre-LLTS), staff being mainly drawn from Kipper Fleet or Truckies, including maritime Shacks. The CNI looked like, and was given the name, "Tojo" – only met him once when he bollocked me for having too big a bar bill (fortunately my expenditure on chits was mainly for crisps and tomato juice – the other stuff was paid for in cash – so I was able to mount a good defence, and the bar staff were also very discreet).
Mister B
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
You did indeed. They way the system worked there was no scope for a course commander to fail or set up a fail. Indeed one stude actually got through to the second phase despite his own best efforts not to succeed. It might have been better off had I let him fail earlier. He became a Provost Officer.
We never set out to prove failures but to get them through if we could. There was one exception, not on my course, who should never have got out of Cranwell. He eventually failed on professional grounds but should have been chopped on OQs before that.
Another did really well in Basics getting 100% for one trip but failed 2 or 3 phases further on.
HTB, as far as I know, around 360 course, there had been no qualified record of success rates. I set about creating a moving average to assess who got through and who failed. The bar graph was pretty steady. IIRC we lost 5% through medical, 35% were recoursed and 60% got through first time. I think of the 35% recoursed, and here it is a bit dim and distant past, about half of these ultimately failed. I didn't separate out ex-pilots from straight through navs but from subjective evidence the chopped pilots did less well than straight through navs.
We never set out to prove failures but to get them through if we could. There was one exception, not on my course, who should never have got out of Cranwell. He eventually failed on professional grounds but should have been chopped on OQs before that.
Another did really well in Basics getting 100% for one trip but failed 2 or 3 phases further on.
HTB, as far as I know, around 360 course, there had been no qualified record of success rates. I set about creating a moving average to assess who got through and who failed. The bar graph was pretty steady. IIRC we lost 5% through medical, 35% were recoursed and 60% got through first time. I think of the 35% recoursed, and here it is a bit dim and distant past, about half of these ultimately failed. I didn't separate out ex-pilots from straight through navs but from subjective evidence the chopped pilots did less well than straight through navs.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 30th Aug 2012 at 11:50.
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I went through the RN SFC in 2000, and the staff there were not shy with the axe either. However, I vaguely remember being shown a video of the RAF SFC which painted in glowing terms its policy of recoursing (unknown in the D school at the time), synthetic training, helping students etc, in contrast to our own trial by fire (live control through A25 on Day 3
, eek for the pilots and LATCC as much as us, simulated A control on s-l-o-w primary radar with no data, only primary returns, and of course the liquids-only diet). Our staff were very impressed, as I recall. Had there been a revolution at Boulmer? Or did sending guys to the Ident branch not count as chopping?
Ref the spotting failures in advance, might not general maturity be the unconscious clue? I went back and had a look at the Fighter Pilot series after the recent thread, and I thought it was pretty obvious that the first guy was going to get chopped while the steady Eddie would end up flying a mighty naval jet. If they'd given out marks for the tying of shoelaces he (the JP chopee) probably would have failed at that, simply because of his overall wibble level.
, eek for the pilots and LATCC as much as us, simulated A control on s-l-o-w primary radar with no data, only primary returns, and of course the liquids-only diet). Our staff were very impressed, as I recall. Had there been a revolution at Boulmer? Or did sending guys to the Ident branch not count as chopping?Ref the spotting failures in advance, might not general maturity be the unconscious clue? I went back and had a look at the Fighter Pilot series after the recent thread, and I thought it was pretty obvious that the first guy was going to get chopped while the steady Eddie would end up flying a mighty naval jet. If they'd given out marks for the tying of shoelaces he (the JP chopee) probably would have failed at that, simply because of his overall wibble level.
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As a civvy FI and FE I've flown with a lot of RAF pilots for civvy ratings and they are often so wound up it often takes them a few trips to calm down and realise they are not about to get slated for every little issue and that I am there to help and teach them. It sounds like the instruction in some elements of training is still a 'I can do this why can't you?' mentality. Only an outsiders observation of course, I'm sure the strong candidates will always do well and there are some that are so naturally good it never fails to impress!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It is no self-fulling prophesy for, as I have said, it was not a question of one on one instruction failing.
Of my course 6 our of 7 were mature. Do as we could however the young non-university guy, ex-pilot, remained a lost cause.
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Sorry, I meant immaturity. I've got nothing against old people! I just thought that this guy and others (I joined at 18 and failed plenty of things, although not the freddying) might have had a better chance if he'd waited a couple of years. In fact, I even asked a QHI if recruiting older folks might not be an advantage- he reckoned yes, but they'd never be fool enough to sign up...
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HTB
I was a couple of courses behind you, 169, and we only had one guy dip out and that was on medical grounds. We'd played rugby against Sleaford Tech in the RAF Cup and this chap, Charlie Ensor, from Belfast, was a bloody good flanker. He got concussed, (we learned later), carried on playing, then subsequently collapsed in the air on a trip in the Varsity a day or so later. I only remember this so clearly because it was the first time I had scored three tries in a game. 
Mind you, I only ran about 12 yards in total for the lot of them. The strange thing was, the Officer i/c rugby, and thus the captain, was a S/L MO, who played full-back!!
The guy who moved from potential Hercules to the F4, IIRC, held at Boscombe Down and racked up 100+ hours in the Bucc prior to his change of posting. I also think he later banged out over Leuchars, practising a Canadian Break??
Small world.
The only FJ-ish Nav Instructor there at the time was on the 12 hour JP interlude between Varsitys and the Dominie. The Janet & John course on map folding and fablon covering after you've put all the info on, not before . . .
He makes a guest appearance in the fine description of 228 OCU shenanigans written by Courtney Mil.
F-4 Phantom FGR2, 228 Phantom OCU, RAF Coningsby and RAF F4 Phantom XV436
It's worth reading the whole lot of his writing; excellent, evocative, funny, deffo non-PC, exactly how it should be. Naturally, IMO,
Mind you, I only ran about 12 yards in total for the lot of them. The strange thing was, the Officer i/c rugby, and thus the captain, was a S/L MO, who played full-back!! The guy who moved from potential Hercules to the F4, IIRC, held at Boscombe Down and racked up 100+ hours in the Bucc prior to his change of posting. I also think he later banged out over Leuchars, practising a Canadian Break??
Small world.
The only FJ-ish Nav Instructor there at the time was on the 12 hour JP interlude between Varsitys and the Dominie. The Janet & John course on map folding and fablon covering after you've put all the info on, not before . . .
He makes a guest appearance in the fine description of 228 OCU shenanigans written by Courtney Mil.F-4 Phantom FGR2, 228 Phantom OCU, RAF Coningsby and RAF F4 Phantom XV436
It's worth reading the whole lot of his writing; excellent, evocative, funny, deffo non-PC, exactly how it should be. Naturally, IMO,
Last edited by johnfairr; 30th Aug 2012 at 19:23.
My Graduate Entry to BFTS, 10 guys with 100+ hours Bulldog.
Result: 6 FJ pilots, 3 ME pilots, 1 FJNav.
Next Direct Entry, 14 guys
Result: after Phase 1 Basic, 1 guy left. He made FJ.
Result: 6 FJ pilots, 3 ME pilots, 1 FJNav.
Next Direct Entry, 14 guys
Result: after Phase 1 Basic, 1 guy left. He made FJ.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A hundred or more courses earlier almost all the basic (2ANS) instructors were FJ with only the specs, astro etc, from the heavies. At 1ANS the navs were the true pencil and paper types ex trucks and Shacks.
As for map folding, after one or two efforts misplotting airways and danger areas and screwing up the fablon we would bung the flt plan cpl and SACW 10/- and they would use the light table and copy a chart for us with the right colours and then fablon it
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F-4 Phantom FGR2, 228 Phantom OCU, RAF Coningsby and RAF F4 Phantom XV436
And self-edifyingly, boring ! Sorry Mil, but that's how I find it. I would imagine that most of us that have been there, especially those before you, may be of same mind. RoW though will be impressed.
If not , I'll be humble and p**s off, and leave you to your newly found Forum.
No doubt you'll post a pithy response.
Good luck with the sea stuff.
And self-edifyingly, boring ! Sorry Mil, but that's how I find it. I would imagine that most of us that have been there, especially those before you, may be of same mind. RoW though will be impressed.
If not , I'll be humble and p**s off, and leave you to your newly found Forum.
No doubt you'll post a pithy response.
Good luck with the sea stuff.
Last edited by jindabyne; 30th Aug 2012 at 19:46.
jinda', that's a bit bŁoody harsh, mate.
Don't forget that Courtney wrote his journal for the genpub, not for ex-FJ mil aircrew.
I think it's very well written and conveys a lot about that era in a readily understandable form. Much nicer to read than in-jokes and mysterious acronymish....
Don't forget that Courtney wrote his journal for the genpub, not for ex-FJ mil aircrew.
I think it's very well written and conveys a lot about that era in a readily understandable form. Much nicer to read than in-jokes and mysterious acronymish....
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JF
I remember Charlie Ensor well, great sense of humour and comic timing - did he not have a relative who played International (Tony Ensor) or was he just BSing? We must have played on the same team at some time, I was usually on the wing, unless the full back was otherwise engaged. I did stand in for RAB Binnie on one occasion when he was flying (damned inconvenient, eh); I think it was a Faville Trophy match, and even managed a lucky try.
I shared a room in the proper mess with the F4 crossover; didn't much like him then, and even less 23 years later when he pitched up at Ramstein as a wg cdr. He was caught doing naughty things with tax-free motor cars and ended up CM and out.
Now, do you recall when Jasper Carrot played in the No 2 mess? Supporting act for me and Dick Yates....
Mister B
I remember Charlie Ensor well, great sense of humour and comic timing - did he not have a relative who played International (Tony Ensor) or was he just BSing? We must have played on the same team at some time, I was usually on the wing, unless the full back was otherwise engaged. I did stand in for RAB Binnie on one occasion when he was flying (damned inconvenient, eh); I think it was a Faville Trophy match, and even managed a lucky try.
I shared a room in the proper mess with the F4 crossover; didn't much like him then, and even less 23 years later when he pitched up at Ramstein as a wg cdr. He was caught doing naughty things with tax-free motor cars and ended up CM and out.
Now, do you recall when Jasper Carrot played in the No 2 mess? Supporting act for me and Dick Yates....
Mister B
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Self promotion I'd call it. And with that, I'm off. AH&N will now be my place.
As with Foldie I suspect, you can stick it ----- Mil Aircrew that is
As with Foldie I suspect, you can stick it ----- Mil Aircrew that is
Last edited by jindabyne; 30th Aug 2012 at 20:08.
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Jindabyne
I disagree.
A record of Courtney's life from go to wo that is well written,
easy to read and as BEagle said, easy for non mil or non flying
ex mil to understand.
It is written by the person who did it so it may look like self promotion
but I don't think it comes across that way at all and certainly doesn't say
he was the best at everything but it does give someone a very good record
of his RAF service life in that era and his FJ life overall.
When I first saw it, I enjoyed it and read the whole thing from top to bottom
and it was time well spent IMHO.
.
.
I disagree.
A record of Courtney's life from go to wo that is well written,
easy to read and as BEagle said, easy for non mil or non flying
ex mil to understand.
It is written by the person who did it so it may look like self promotion
but I don't think it comes across that way at all and certainly doesn't say
he was the best at everything but it does give someone a very good record
of his RAF service life in that era and his FJ life overall.
When I first saw it, I enjoyed it and read the whole thing from top to bottom
and it was time well spent IMHO.
.
.
Last edited by 500N; 30th Aug 2012 at 20:22.
Well, I'm gutted that you didn't fall for my thinly diguised attempt to make myself out to a bloody huge he-man hero, jindabyne. Tell you what. I think you're probably right so I'll just delete the whole site. It was worth a try, though.
Apart from that, thanks for the good wishes for the 'sea stuff'. We're off on the next trip next week, so your good wishes are well received.
Courtney
P.S. Thank you guys, for your kind comments.
Apart from that, thanks for the good wishes for the 'sea stuff'. We're off on the next trip next week, so your good wishes are well received.
Courtney
P.S. Thank you guys, for your kind comments.
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AWESOME
The site is a gem ! Bloody excellent - for those who flew the F4 it jogs memories and I bet 1000s of people who loved the F4 relish it
CM - ignore the knobs in the world - they are bitter and twisted individuals - jealousy is a bad thing
Keep up the good work
Jinda - thought you were going to piss off?
CM - ignore the knobs in the world - they are bitter and twisted individuals - jealousy is a bad thing
Keep up the good work
Jinda - thought you were going to piss off?
Last edited by Scruffy Fanny; 30th Aug 2012 at 20:54.