Any Phantom stories out there?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
grizz, JE was the only pilot I knew who unashamably claimed PIC hours while sitting on the lawn outside the hangar at Bitteswell supping coffee and listening to the sound of summer and of Griffons cooling with what was left of his hearing.
The FE for the incident I related was, IIRC, Mick D*****
The FE for the incident I related was, IIRC, Mick D*****
Another classic line....
Deci, well muscled RAF navigator briefing assembled 2v2v2. Us, 2 F15's and 2 F16 all USAF.
At the conclusion of his brief he announced in a loud voice..
'if you are going fast enough you haven't got a six o'clock'
At the conclusion of his brief he announced in a loud voice..
'if you are going fast enough you haven't got a six o'clock'
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F4 taxying in afterburner
RAF Wattisham, early 90s.
I am duty adult up the tower, looking towards the runway after a pair of 56 Sqn F4s have landed and are taxying behind us when I am asked a strange question.
Air tragic: "Why is D***** taxying in afterburner?"
My response: hit red button and transmit "Fire, fire, fire..."
I am duty adult up the tower, looking towards the runway after a pair of 56 Sqn F4s have landed and are taxying behind us when I am asked a strange question.
Air tragic: "Why is D***** taxying in afterburner?"
My response: hit red button and transmit "Fire, fire, fire..."
Just going back briefly to the blocked deck scenario mentioned earlier...we never pushed dead aircraft over the side. In such cases, the flight deck crane, known as Jumbo, would move ponderously forward, pick up the offending article (most usually a Vixen with a collapsed nosewheel), and park it in a convenient spot, after which the land-on proceeded normally. It would take about ten minutes. Anyhow, we very, very rarely flew at night without a shore diversion available, and by day we'd have a tanker at standby if there wasn't one.
Last edited by Schiller; 16th Aug 2012 at 13:36.
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Temporarily uncertain of position...
ORAC, your tale of the F-4s and the Israeli F-15s reminds me of something similar that happened in 83/84 ish. I should point out before I go any further that, with age, I remember things perfectly clearly, but quite often remember them entirely incorrectly, so please forgive me if I've got the wrong squadron or the wrong dates.
During Op Pulsator (protecting UN forces in Beirut) a four ship from Tremblers (I think it was Tremblers, anyway) set off towards Beirut for a practice sweep in support of the Bucc det. Now, once out of TACAN range and without INAS (the FG1, had a hamster-driven air position indicator, which on a good day would tell you which hemisphere you were in with a 50% chance of being right) our heroes relied on using the radar to pick up the distinctive peninsula that Beirut sits on.
All went well until the final leg. Bang on time, the coast came up on the radar, but the lead nav couldn't work out how they'd got so far north of track because the peninsula was thirty-odd degrees right of where it should've been. Undaunted, they turned right to put it on the nose. Trouble was, it wasn't the right peninsula - it was the one with Haifa on the end of it. I don't remember the exact details of how they were alerted to their mistake, but they ended up beating a hasty retreat stage left with a formation of IDF F-15s not far behind them.
A year or so later during an APC, 56 Sqn was involved with what became known unofficially as Operation Secret Squirrel - I've no idea if the details are in the public domain, so will say no more - but once again, it ended up with our F-4s bravely running away from the Israelis.
During Op Pulsator (protecting UN forces in Beirut) a four ship from Tremblers (I think it was Tremblers, anyway) set off towards Beirut for a practice sweep in support of the Bucc det. Now, once out of TACAN range and without INAS (the FG1, had a hamster-driven air position indicator, which on a good day would tell you which hemisphere you were in with a 50% chance of being right) our heroes relied on using the radar to pick up the distinctive peninsula that Beirut sits on.
All went well until the final leg. Bang on time, the coast came up on the radar, but the lead nav couldn't work out how they'd got so far north of track because the peninsula was thirty-odd degrees right of where it should've been. Undaunted, they turned right to put it on the nose. Trouble was, it wasn't the right peninsula - it was the one with Haifa on the end of it. I don't remember the exact details of how they were alerted to their mistake, but they ended up beating a hasty retreat stage left with a formation of IDF F-15s not far behind them.
A year or so later during an APC, 56 Sqn was involved with what became known unofficially as Operation Secret Squirrel - I've no idea if the details are in the public domain, so will say no more - but once again, it ended up with our F-4s bravely running away from the Israelis.
Last edited by Ali Qadoo; 16th Aug 2012 at 17:09. Reason: typos
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Regarding IMcF,I remember him being the(43) Solo Display Pilot in late 70s.He got a well deserved" Gong",by recovering with one dead Donk and a very poor other Donk and very limited hydraulics,from a North Sea Singleton Night Intercept.He recovered to Lossie,I believe, and his report ,so he told us,was the prime mover in Pairs being used in future.A favourite cost cutting expedience of not shrouding the hot ends,by our illustrious budget controllers,caused many illfated incidents,also in the V Force.
Originally Posted by BEagle
Courtney, I can't remember, but surely a single engine failure didn't lead to an immediate PC failure unless the engine seized? Was there an hydraulic accumulator in the PC system?
As you say, unless the engine had siezed or was just at very low rpm after a flame out at high altitude/low airspeed, the windmilling engine could power the system.
Of course, each flight control surface was powered by more than one hyd system anyway. So the loss of one PC circuit still left the stabs powered by the other one and the spoilers and ailerons powered by the utility system, so ne real snag.
Hi Courtney! Yes, that's what I thought.
The problem with double PC failure, if I recall correctly, was that the stabilator would move to an extreme position and abandonment could be severely hampered.
Double utilities / single PC failure was something we practised during OCU training and in the simulator - but double PC failure meant saying good-bye to the simulator exercise.
I recall trailing an F-4 north to ASI, which suffered a double utilities failure. The captain's plan was to start a descent, settle him down at around 20 miles, then land before the RW was blacked with a RHAG engagement, clear off into the high speed exit and wait for him to land. No point in staying airborne to give him any gas as he would have needed an emergency probe extension - and extra fuel was of no use at ASI.
My captain wouldn't listen to my brief about calling the descent, slowly reducing thrust and checking the descent rate was OK for the F-4 mate (no speedbrakes!). So when I called 'descending', I was given an earful from the irritable sod in the LHS...Then came an anguished yelp for 'more power' from the F-4 to ease the descent, so I gave the captain a "Well, there you go - told you so!" expression.
As we approached ASI, he couldn't even navigate himself to 'COLTS' (as it then was) without being spoon-fed by 'Uncle Chuckles', his equally grumpy ex-Victor navigator. We landed, the F-4 took the wire and was towed in, before we all stacked.
Later in the bar, the captain acted as though he'd somehow saved the F-4 mates' day (or rather, very dark night)....
So I went and had a beer with the F-4 crew instead.
"Let me guess - I'll bet he's a Wing Commander", said the F-4 nav....
Correctamundo!
The problem with double PC failure, if I recall correctly, was that the stabilator would move to an extreme position and abandonment could be severely hampered.
Double utilities / single PC failure was something we practised during OCU training and in the simulator - but double PC failure meant saying good-bye to the simulator exercise.
I recall trailing an F-4 north to ASI, which suffered a double utilities failure. The captain's plan was to start a descent, settle him down at around 20 miles, then land before the RW was blacked with a RHAG engagement, clear off into the high speed exit and wait for him to land. No point in staying airborne to give him any gas as he would have needed an emergency probe extension - and extra fuel was of no use at ASI.
My captain wouldn't listen to my brief about calling the descent, slowly reducing thrust and checking the descent rate was OK for the F-4 mate (no speedbrakes!). So when I called 'descending', I was given an earful from the irritable sod in the LHS...Then came an anguished yelp for 'more power' from the F-4 to ease the descent, so I gave the captain a "Well, there you go - told you so!" expression.
As we approached ASI, he couldn't even navigate himself to 'COLTS' (as it then was) without being spoon-fed by 'Uncle Chuckles', his equally grumpy ex-Victor navigator. We landed, the F-4 took the wire and was towed in, before we all stacked.
Later in the bar, the captain acted as though he'd somehow saved the F-4 mates' day (or rather, very dark night)....
So I went and had a beer with the F-4 crew instead.
"Let me guess - I'll bet he's a Wing Commander", said the F-4 nav....
Correctamundo!
Last edited by BEagle; 16th Aug 2012 at 21:25.
Well done, you, Beags. There have been a number of times when I've been very grateful to have a friend in athe tanker that clearly knew something about my jet - not always with your knowledge of the F4. QRA tanker story to follow when I have more time in the morning.
Cheers, Courtney!
In the early days on the VC10K, many of us co-piglets had come from various FJ backgrounds. This helped more than a few times - for example, a mate of mine was able to suggest a course of action to a Jag pilot whose jet was venting from the fin. Synergy!
On an epic Sverdlov wake-up mission with a bunch of Buccs, knowing the capability of their UHF 'ADF' mode helped expedite the home bound RV after they'd wired Ivan, so that after AAR and firing them off towards Lossie, we then had just enough gas to get home after a climb to FL420 ('due regard'). But it helped having a very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav whose rapid, accurate calcualtions were invaluable.
Looking forward to your Q-tanker saga, mate!
In the early days on the VC10K, many of us co-piglets had come from various FJ backgrounds. This helped more than a few times - for example, a mate of mine was able to suggest a course of action to a Jag pilot whose jet was venting from the fin. Synergy!
On an epic Sverdlov wake-up mission with a bunch of Buccs, knowing the capability of their UHF 'ADF' mode helped expedite the home bound RV after they'd wired Ivan, so that after AAR and firing them off towards Lossie, we then had just enough gas to get home after a climb to FL420 ('due regard'). But it helped having a very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav whose rapid, accurate calcualtions were invaluable.
Looking forward to your Q-tanker saga, mate!
Last edited by BEagle; 16th Aug 2012 at 21:35.
Thanks fellas.
Of all the inane threads and overblown experiences on PPRune, you guys saddle up to the bar, which would hardly be noticed except for that clanking sound from the high strength stainless steel in your trousers.
Of all the inane threads and overblown experiences on PPRune, you guys saddle up to the bar, which would hardly be noticed except for that clanking sound from the high strength stainless steel in your trousers.
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The double PC was always the moment when you realised that the sim was now over and you were obviously meant to eject; I am not sure I would have looked quite so pleased seeing it when airborne
. Isn't there a story of somebody managing to get an F4 with a double PC out of enemy territory in Vietnam? On a similar note, for a ripping F4 read the account of Pardo's Push here:
Pardo's Push - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
takes some beating....
. Isn't there a story of somebody managing to get an F4 with a double PC out of enemy territory in Vietnam? On a similar note, for a ripping F4 read the account of Pardo's Push here:Pardo's Push - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
takes some beating....
But it helped having a very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav whose rapid, accurate calcualtions were invaluable
Nothing astonishing here, but the tale of a fun night’s work. Southern QRA, secret base in Lincolnshire, world’s phinest phighter. Around supper time there was a lot of activity on telebrief with the Neat Allocator clearly quite phired up, but no mention of a P time. However, the Tanker at Marham was brought to a higher state of readiness and eventually launched. We assumed that Northern Q would get the trade and we’d get the middle of the night no-notice scramble to go and replace them. But the whole of the north was heading towards Red making us the better option.
Q2 Nav was a phounder member of the Slug Club (his previous tour on a secret phighter base in Scotland) and, as such refused to leave his arm chair unless absolutely compelled to when the call of nature was so urgent that he has no choice. We even had to bring his meal to him. That meant that when we were brought to cockpit ready, he had a seriously bright PHULL caption on. I think his words to me as we ran to the jets were something along the lines of, “If you go u/s I’m going to explode and make life very unpleasant for you when you get back.”
Both jets were held at cockpit for a good 30 minutes with a phairly confused picture coming from Neat. Eventually, my
and I were launched, but Q2 held at cockpit as a ready back up – obviously something big going on. Before we chopped to Tower, we asked Q2N how he was doing.
“Too late.” He replied.
Anyway. Transited to the secret play area many north of the maximum range of the radios, Tacan, etc, and joined up with the Tanker (who, you will recall has been way ahead of us through all this) and philled to phull. (I need to drop the ph thing now, it’s too hard to type). We set about building a picture with the aid of Pole Star and it appeared that we had not one, but two Zombies, fairly well split in range. At this point the Tanker mate declared that he’s ex F4 and adopted the callsign ‘02’.
“I’ll take the eastern one, you take the other, then we’ll swap and transfer some fuel when we meet in the middle.”
Seemed like a good plan to us. He took vectors from Pole Star, and closed on the eastern Zombie in his Victor “KF1”. We reported two Bear F in the west and ‘02’ reported two Bear F in the east. So my second live intercept is FOUR Foxtrots! Outstanding!
Our plan of swapping targets and fuel worked well through most of the night, thanks to the help and supplies of the world’s biggest interceptor and a fighter-minded Tanker mate, who also kept our INAS in the correct hemisphere. The Q2 crew who had finally been stood down to RS10 were slightly perplexed to hear on Telebrief that Q1 had idented 2 Foxtrots and so had Q2????
Any ex-F4 Tanker guys care to ‘fess up?
Q2 Nav was a phounder member of the Slug Club (his previous tour on a secret phighter base in Scotland) and, as such refused to leave his arm chair unless absolutely compelled to when the call of nature was so urgent that he has no choice. We even had to bring his meal to him. That meant that when we were brought to cockpit ready, he had a seriously bright PHULL caption on. I think his words to me as we ran to the jets were something along the lines of, “If you go u/s I’m going to explode and make life very unpleasant for you when you get back.”
Both jets were held at cockpit for a good 30 minutes with a phairly confused picture coming from Neat. Eventually, my
Originally Posted by Beagle
very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav
“Too late.” He replied.
Anyway. Transited to the secret play area many north of the maximum range of the radios, Tacan, etc, and joined up with the Tanker (who, you will recall has been way ahead of us through all this) and philled to phull. (I need to drop the ph thing now, it’s too hard to type). We set about building a picture with the aid of Pole Star and it appeared that we had not one, but two Zombies, fairly well split in range. At this point the Tanker mate declared that he’s ex F4 and adopted the callsign ‘02’.
“I’ll take the eastern one, you take the other, then we’ll swap and transfer some fuel when we meet in the middle.”
Seemed like a good plan to us. He took vectors from Pole Star, and closed on the eastern Zombie in his Victor “KF1”. We reported two Bear F in the west and ‘02’ reported two Bear F in the east. So my second live intercept is FOUR Foxtrots! Outstanding!
Our plan of swapping targets and fuel worked well through most of the night, thanks to the help and supplies of the world’s biggest interceptor and a fighter-minded Tanker mate, who also kept our INAS in the correct hemisphere. The Q2 crew who had finally been stood down to RS10 were slightly perplexed to hear on Telebrief that Q1 had idented 2 Foxtrots and so had Q2????
Any ex-F4 Tanker guys care to ‘fess up?
Stanley and MPA Tales
March 1986, 1312 Flight RAF Stanley – I was flying the Herctanker when a F4 spoked our basket. That night we had a party on 1312 and I was talking to OC23 when one of mygroundcrew who had repaired said basket mentioned the incident and the old tradition that a spoked basket equalled slab of beer for the groundcrew who had to do the rebuild. This tradition had sadly been abandoned by the previous OC23 (after his own personal incident). On hearing this, current OC 23 demanded to know the culprit F4 crew, called them over and very succinctly said “slab of beer go, deliver to 1312 go” – tradition resumed.
He then turned to me to say “But the other half is that if you ever fail to pass fuel that means a slab of beer for the F4 crew” – fair enough.
A few days later out at play with 2 F4s our hose would not trail. Try as we might we could only get it out in jerks and never to full trail. Loadie and Ground Eng down the back were slaving away, hitting the HDU with hammers and tensioners and doing other engineering things. Meanwhile we had a F4 sitting on each wing with all 4 crew members grinning and making jubilant drinking signs. Just before they had to depart we finally succeeded with the hose and all was well with us but less so with the F4s although they did get their fuel.
Tanking in the Herc the Loadie was our eyes and would provide a commentary on the F4s, their positions relative to us approaching and in formation and then progress on the refuel. The commentary normally went something like – “he’s in the stabilised, moving forward, 5 feet, 4 feet,…. in contact, pushing in, holding stable…..”
One day, by now we were all at MPA, out playing with the F4s and we reached the refuel. All was well until “he’s in the stabilised, moving f*** me that was fast.” It turned out that that F4 had a loose reheat gate (apologies for truckie description) and nobody had told OC23.
He then turned to me to say “But the other half is that if you ever fail to pass fuel that means a slab of beer for the F4 crew” – fair enough.
A few days later out at play with 2 F4s our hose would not trail. Try as we might we could only get it out in jerks and never to full trail. Loadie and Ground Eng down the back were slaving away, hitting the HDU with hammers and tensioners and doing other engineering things. Meanwhile we had a F4 sitting on each wing with all 4 crew members grinning and making jubilant drinking signs. Just before they had to depart we finally succeeded with the hose and all was well with us but less so with the F4s although they did get their fuel.
Tanking in the Herc the Loadie was our eyes and would provide a commentary on the F4s, their positions relative to us approaching and in formation and then progress on the refuel. The commentary normally went something like – “he’s in the stabilised, moving forward, 5 feet, 4 feet,…. in contact, pushing in, holding stable…..”
One day, by now we were all at MPA, out playing with the F4s and we reached the refuel. All was well until “he’s in the stabilised, moving f*** me that was fast.” It turned out that that F4 had a loose reheat gate (apologies for truckie description) and nobody had told OC23.
Last edited by Xercules; 17th Aug 2012 at 09:17.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Restrictions were subsequently placed on how near the tankers could close after a formal complaint by the Russians.
The tankers, ever helpful, were closing below the Bears to get the door numbers by use of the obliquitous aircrew torch and camera. Subsequent calculation indicating the top of the T tail being located with a few feet of the bottom of the Bear.....
The tankers, ever helpful, were closing below the Bears to get the door numbers by use of the obliquitous aircrew torch and camera. Subsequent calculation indicating the top of the T tail being located with a few feet of the bottom of the Bear.....
But it helped having a very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav whose rapid, accurate calcualtions were invaluable.
The tankers, ever helpful, were closing below the Bears to get the door numbers by use of the obliquitous aircrew torch and camera.
(The original was much sharper - this is just a photo of a print which appeared later in Air Clues, to give an idea.)
After a few such shots, we soon found ourselves receiving 4 swish new Canon cameras, 300mm telephoto lenses and UV filters. Some crews brought back excellent photos; for many years the 'official' shots of the Bear G were those which had been taken by a VC10K pilot.
Whereas the scabby old cassette recorder we used to plug in to the 5th seat intercom to record Boris-to-Boris chat was hardly cutting edge. We did once hear that the analysts had been in stitches listening to one Bear crews' raunchy comments about the night they'd just had in Cuba....
Squadron rules for 'claiming' Bears were simple. By day, no film = no kill. By night, independent confirmation of type. But we weren't daft enough to try for door numbers.
Mostly.
Apart from the Foxtrot crews, all other Bear mates were quite sociable. Particularly when we held the Sun calendar up in the cockpit window. Little did Sam Fox ever know how much her parts played their part in bringing down the Iron Curtain. She does now though as I managed to persuade a hack to let her know - she found it most amusing, I'm told!
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Aug 2012 at 10:31.