Any Phantom stories out there?
One of the arguments was (probably quite rightly) that the fast jets were far more likely to foul the runway and the big boys didn't have the option of diverting into the other end cable or ejecting safely in the balmy, smooth sea.
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Funnily, I don't think we took the cable.
On the same det we hit an albatross at 480 kts over Queen Charlotte Bay. It punctured the radome and took out the radar and ute hyd, damaged the LH aux air intake and we shut down the L engine as it was hot and grumbling. This of course resulted in a cable engagement.
On the same det we hit an albatross at 480 kts over Queen Charlotte Bay. It punctured the radome and took out the radar and ute hyd, damaged the LH aux air intake and we shut down the L engine as it was hot and grumbling. This of course resulted in a cable engagement.
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Late Summer Julilee Year ,as I recall,I had been tasked with returning a "loaned"Shotgun back to the Armoury,which was Southside.A nice roar overhead and a three out of four followed by a typical flat break,a line astern pair,from 892, broke into the circuit from the Bonnie North!As I was speaking to the Chief,an incredible noise of a Toom in Reheat followed by the ground vibrating caused us both to look back towards the active,09.There was a F4 Vertical about 25 feet in the air held as in suspension.The almighty roar continued,but the Toom then lept upwards as though shot out of a cannon,accompanied by a dust storm and a whooshing sound that I had never heard before.We ducked out of a natural instinct for self preservation,and hit the deck!The Whooshing continued,it seemed for ages,together with its accompanied whirling dervish of a dust storm.The F4 having done a bolter,had left its hook down and picked a wire!The wire held sufficiently long to appear to hold the aircraft for a millisecond,until it failed and then coiled itself into whirling mass of cable that flayed all around the Airfield.Not one single casualty,except the roof of a Tilly ripped off,and some ground radar aerials.I believe the F4 only suffered a knackered hook from being dragged along on its final recovery.On returning to the Wardroom,as it was lunchtime,I saw the intrepid Dave the Brave together with his white faced "Looker"(Bones ,I think),with attending debriefers,supping large Horses Necks,still in their smellies,explaining all.Having seen an Hunter blown apart at its transport joint when nitrogen and oxygen were confused by the Eng when topping up the oxygen,it was amazing the Phantom was not more serverely damaged.Others might know whether it was??I never saw it in repair,so assumed it was signed off and returned north with its pair,having just had its hydraulics sorted.
But well done, Ali
. FWIW I recall similar happening to somebody else (?N.S./M.M.) very late 82/early 83.
Stanley, daytime, single F-4 gets airborne (possibly a QRA scramble), the supporting C-130 then enters , backtracks, but goes U/S and so taxis back to the ramp ( near the tower)....unfortunately as it starts the turn off the runway into the pan the nose gear collapses, leaving most of Albert's not insignificant bulk neatly blocking the runway
......... We now have our heroic single F-4 airborne with no tanker support, no alternates and the runway blocked roughly at the midpoint.....There was no prospect of getting the runway cleared quickly so as far as I recall it some brave soul (Sqn Ldr M.N? and crew) managed to get another C-130 airborne despite the reduced runway length, top up the F-4 and then foxtrot oscar off to somewhere friendly on the mainland. Eventually the F-4 takes the approach end cable - due to the position of the Herc the only "missed trap" option was Martin Baker for the crew, so with that in mind we were told to bravely run away from Phandet and take up crash positions well back from the runway...
Anyone else remember this event / names of those involved?
Last edited by wiggy; 14th Aug 2012 at 17:20.
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Night tanking stats duly gathered, the Albert crew headed for home, leaving
us to do our last few splits before heading down the slope ourselves.
As for RHAG engagements, there are many tales to be told, however landing on a radalt at 50' in the clag on the short runway at Stanley takes some guts (and skill, and trust, and nerve) so hats off to you.
Said it before - but am still amazed at just how big the F4 is when you see it in the flesh - one huge piece of aluminium.
As a kid, used to get frustrated that the pilots were so small in the kitset, in proportion to jet.
Then many years later, I walked up to the real thing and suddenly understood.
Seem to remember a quote from one driver that you hit MIL power - it was like a locomotive until it reached rotate speed, and then at 180 knots the train turned into a swallow.
Nice.
As a kid, used to get frustrated that the pilots were so small in the kitset, in proportion to jet.
Then many years later, I walked up to the real thing and suddenly understood.
Seem to remember a quote from one driver that you hit MIL power - it was like a locomotive until it reached rotate speed, and then at 180 knots the train turned into a swallow.
Nice.
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OCU F4 >FL660
I have a memory that was me and a (now) Professor, who teaches CRM amongst other things. He uses the tale that we discussed the implications of being very high, after being very fast, and that we were both happy with our mission. When we got up there - fringe of space - it was very dark in the sunshine, and the RH GEN OUT caption came on. Yes, the starboard engine had flamed out and we were ready for reentry.
On the way down, the said engine went to 0% rpm, and the PC2 light illuminated ! We were doing >250kts indicated by then, and we were unhappy. As we got into the stiffer air the rpm recovered quickly to about 15% and we relit it fine. Later on recovery to an RAF base in Scotland the PC1 caption came on and pressure went to zero, due to a big leak. We landed uneventfully into the wire on 09 I think.
My Professor friend later pointed out that if the engine which had kept going had failed when the other one did we would have lost pressurisation >660. As we were sitting there in our grow bags only, this could have been embarassing, as we suffered a painful depressurisation. It also makes me wonder if that starboard engine had stayed at 0%, and then the PC1 had also failed, we would have had to jettison the jet.
Now that would have been an expensive last F4 flight!
On the way down, the said engine went to 0% rpm, and the PC2 light illuminated ! We were doing >250kts indicated by then, and we were unhappy. As we got into the stiffer air the rpm recovered quickly to about 15% and we relit it fine. Later on recovery to an RAF base in Scotland the PC1 caption came on and pressure went to zero, due to a big leak. We landed uneventfully into the wire on 09 I think.
My Professor friend later pointed out that if the engine which had kept going had failed when the other one did we would have lost pressurisation >660. As we were sitting there in our grow bags only, this could have been embarassing, as we suffered a painful depressurisation. It also makes me wonder if that starboard engine had stayed at 0%, and then the PC1 had also failed, we would have had to jettison the jet.
Now that would have been an expensive last F4 flight!
Last edited by burnden; 16th Aug 2012 at 02:01. Reason: Dodgy memory
With a double PC failure above FL660, you would have had a really interesting ejection......
Hopefully you would have woken up when the barostat did its thing though.
Courtney, I can't remember, but surely a single engine failure didn't lead to an immediate PC failure unless the engine seized? Was there an hydraulic accumulator in the PC system?
The Bucc had a way of integrating FlyCon hyd from the GS hyd system, if I recall correctly, but I don't recall any such reversion for powering PC from Utility hyd in the F-4?
Hopefully you would have woken up when the barostat did its thing though.
Courtney, I can't remember, but surely a single engine failure didn't lead to an immediate PC failure unless the engine seized? Was there an hydraulic accumulator in the PC system?
The Bucc had a way of integrating FlyCon hyd from the GS hyd system, if I recall correctly, but I don't recall any such reversion for powering PC from Utility hyd in the F-4?
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Been there too. It is remakable to see how many of us achieved rather too high in the F4 world. Without looking at my logbook it would be a Friday morning in either 1981 or 82 at a Scottish airfield. Briefed as a 4 ship, walked as a 2 ship, launched as a singleton for what was supposed to be a 2v2 with AAR. The thing that makes this different, and I can not recall why, is that we were totally clean, no tanks no pylons. No one else airborne so we do some PIs on the tanker and then refuel to full. Tanker then goes home. F4 full of fuel with no one else to play with. Pilot asks what shall we do so we decide to go as fast as we can. Rushing down the North Sea and eventually make M 2.0 . Now what, pull nose up and see how it climbs. Passing FL 500 still doing M 1.6 in 30 degree climb. Roll inverted and pull but sky gets dark and we top at FL 650 with engines and pressurisation both running and the recovery no particular issue. We certainly learned about how an aircraft can run away with you and would appear we got away more lightly than others.
Sorry for an off topic tale as such but I still smile when I recall being on an RAFGSA exped to Aboyne in 1986(?). Sat on the ground a blind call went out from a Booker glider to warn all pilots "that there was another RAF jet flying down the valley alongside the airfield with his head stuffed inside the cockpit!"
Immediately the stiff British accent of IMcF retorted that he was not another RAF aircraft & had indeed got his head out of the cockpit & was the President of the RAFGSA, by this time he was to the south of the airfield & in clear view & as he uttered his last word, lit the burners & sat the mighty Toom on its tail - much laughter & admiration from those of us with a sense of humour!
Hope your keeping well Sir
Immediately the stiff British accent of IMcF retorted that he was not another RAF aircraft & had indeed got his head out of the cockpit & was the President of the RAFGSA, by this time he was to the south of the airfield & in clear view & as he uttered his last word, lit the burners & sat the mighty Toom on its tail - much laughter & admiration from those of us with a sense of humour!
Hope your keeping well Sir
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Some of those directly involved may be able to correct some of the detail of my recollections (it is nearly 40 years ago!) but here goes:
The scene - early (I think) 1974, 71 MU RAF Bicester. We received a report that a USAF F4 on approach to Upper Heyford had crashed quite close to us. It was alleged that there was a back seat/front seat disagreement about altitude which was only resolved when the aircraft touched the ground, wheels up, in a very flat attitude in a field some miles short of Heyford, at which point both crew ejected safely. The unmanned aircraft continued across the field, through a hedge, across a minor road (scaring the sh** out of a removal van crew heading towards it) and through another hedge before coming to rest in field, smoking a bit but looking remarkably unharmed.
In due course, as the UK (and probably Europe and the World's!) 'smash and crash' experts 71MU was tasked with recovering the almost completely intact jet and my Engineer Flt Lt mate was in charge. It was decided to recover it to Bicester 'cross country' using track crawlers.
There was much fun clearing the route, diverting phone and HT lines etc, and even more fun trying to raise the (well-embedded) beast on to the crawlers. They couldn't get airbags underneath it to lift it and so employed a large crane. Unfortunately, with much of Oxfordshire in the intakes, wheel wells and every other orifice, it was too heavy and the crane tipped. One bigger crane later it was up and away, cross country which took, I think, a day or two to cover the few miles - hitting one HT line on the way and blacking out a couple of villages. Finally, it arrived - a very mud-splattered beast indeed and sat for a week or so whilst the decison was made to dismantle it on site. That proved easier said than done for, as my engineer mates pointed out, it was of largely 'agricultural' construction with many bits milled out of solid metal ... and they'd never had to deal wuth a whole one before! The upshot was that the lads 'had at it' with the legendary Husq**** cutters, equipped with diamond-edged discs which I seem to recall were extremely (OK, VERY, VERY extremely!) expensive. After day 1, one disc was worn out, and so to on subsequent days as it required, I think, 3 or 4 discs before it was finally cut into movable bits.
There are pictures of the whole operation out there somewhere or buried in the 71MU records (there were lots taken at the time). It showed, beyond doubt, that the F4 was indeed a very rugged aircraft indeed.
The final irony was a few months later at a party in a Bicester MQ. Self and Engineer mate enjoying ourselves when in walks a USAF officer who turns out to be ... the nav concerned. Polite chit chat followed, but no comments were made!
The scene - early (I think) 1974, 71 MU RAF Bicester. We received a report that a USAF F4 on approach to Upper Heyford had crashed quite close to us. It was alleged that there was a back seat/front seat disagreement about altitude which was only resolved when the aircraft touched the ground, wheels up, in a very flat attitude in a field some miles short of Heyford, at which point both crew ejected safely. The unmanned aircraft continued across the field, through a hedge, across a minor road (scaring the sh** out of a removal van crew heading towards it) and through another hedge before coming to rest in field, smoking a bit but looking remarkably unharmed.
In due course, as the UK (and probably Europe and the World's!) 'smash and crash' experts 71MU was tasked with recovering the almost completely intact jet and my Engineer Flt Lt mate was in charge. It was decided to recover it to Bicester 'cross country' using track crawlers.
There was much fun clearing the route, diverting phone and HT lines etc, and even more fun trying to raise the (well-embedded) beast on to the crawlers. They couldn't get airbags underneath it to lift it and so employed a large crane. Unfortunately, with much of Oxfordshire in the intakes, wheel wells and every other orifice, it was too heavy and the crane tipped. One bigger crane later it was up and away, cross country which took, I think, a day or two to cover the few miles - hitting one HT line on the way and blacking out a couple of villages. Finally, it arrived - a very mud-splattered beast indeed and sat for a week or so whilst the decison was made to dismantle it on site. That proved easier said than done for, as my engineer mates pointed out, it was of largely 'agricultural' construction with many bits milled out of solid metal ... and they'd never had to deal wuth a whole one before! The upshot was that the lads 'had at it' with the legendary Husq**** cutters, equipped with diamond-edged discs which I seem to recall were extremely (OK, VERY, VERY extremely!) expensive. After day 1, one disc was worn out, and so to on subsequent days as it required, I think, 3 or 4 discs before it was finally cut into movable bits.
There are pictures of the whole operation out there somewhere or buried in the 71MU records (there were lots taken at the time). It showed, beyond doubt, that the F4 was indeed a very rugged aircraft indeed.
The final irony was a few months later at a party in a Bicester MQ. Self and Engineer mate enjoying ourselves when in walks a USAF officer who turns out to be ... the nav concerned. Polite chit chat followed, but no comments were made!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A growbag descent from above 50,000 ft would probably have been fatal for many reasons. The time of useful consciousness is in the order of 10-15 seconds. With an inadequate supply of oxygen oxygen you not would have been receiving enough until below 50,000 ft.
Then there is the little matter of temperature. The time in free-fall with sub-zero would have been quite enough to make reliance on the automatics essential.
If the parachute desent had terminated with a water entry, even with water above 10 degrees and no immersion suit, survival time in water would be minimal especially if you were deep frozen and unconscious.
Then there is the little matter of temperature. The time in free-fall with sub-zero would have been quite enough to make reliance on the automatics essential.
If the parachute desent had terminated with a water entry, even with water above 10 degrees and no immersion suit, survival time in water would be minimal especially if you were deep frozen and unconscious.
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The scene - early (I think) 1974, 71 MU RAF Bicester
f4 phantom* 1970 - 1974
28th January 1974
USAFRF‑4C65‑0919 AR10th TRW
RAF Upper Heyfordon approach to airbase Stoke Lyne, Oxon, UK Martin-BakerMAJ D. M. Stewart
ejectedCapt. L. B. Speckman
ejectedMartin-Baker
Shame they did not fix it and fly it out of Bicester....
BTW Great thread....
Last edited by Tupperware Pilot; 15th Aug 2012 at 13:28.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Back in 76-78 I was a controller at 280SU in Cyprus. many interesting stories to tell, but with concerning this thread the one of interest is the interception of the first Israeli F15s....
The Israeli Air Force received it's first F15s in Dec 1976. They obviously wanted to do some high speed long range trials/training and got into the routine of flying a apir due west out into the Med about equidistant from Cyprus and Egypt for about 300nm before do a high speed run back to the east.
To provide controller training there was a regular detachment of a 1/2 tankers and 2/4 F4s to AKR for a couple of weeks. The tanker would get airborne and refuel the F4s and then head out of radar cover while they'd do a few mutual PIs, the tanker would then be detected and intercepted and the exercise repeated till time/fuel ran out.
During one such exercise a pair of F15s were detected outbound. At this stage the cunning thought occured that it would be a good wheeze to intercept them. The Duty Controllers at EPI were all maritime/bomber crew and it did not prove difficult to convince them that a pair of "unknown" aircraft inside the Nicosia FIR in a position to intercept the U2 should be intercepted and identified. Permission granted an elegant stern intercept was performed.
The F4s closed from astern and called visual on a pair of F15s with a full load of Mx (they always flew live armed). At which point the F15s turned and engaged.
Being sensible F4 crew, carrying only captive sidewinder training rounds, the F4s rolled inverted and pulled for the sea accelerating to VNe. They levelled out at sea level at M1.4+ heading back for AKR. Thankfully the F15s did not chase.
The next day the Israeli ambassador to Queen Anne's Court reportedly had a nice chat with the Foreign Office and pointed out the risks involved in such an intercept and the consequences if it should happen again.
The DC at EPI received a one sided interview with the CinC Cyprus, as did the 280SU controller (Don A....... if I recall correctly) who had a special Wessex laid on to pick him up from the mountain for special delivery.
The Israeli Air Force received it's first F15s in Dec 1976. They obviously wanted to do some high speed long range trials/training and got into the routine of flying a apir due west out into the Med about equidistant from Cyprus and Egypt for about 300nm before do a high speed run back to the east.
To provide controller training there was a regular detachment of a 1/2 tankers and 2/4 F4s to AKR for a couple of weeks. The tanker would get airborne and refuel the F4s and then head out of radar cover while they'd do a few mutual PIs, the tanker would then be detected and intercepted and the exercise repeated till time/fuel ran out.
During one such exercise a pair of F15s were detected outbound. At this stage the cunning thought occured that it would be a good wheeze to intercept them. The Duty Controllers at EPI were all maritime/bomber crew and it did not prove difficult to convince them that a pair of "unknown" aircraft inside the Nicosia FIR in a position to intercept the U2 should be intercepted and identified. Permission granted an elegant stern intercept was performed.
The F4s closed from astern and called visual on a pair of F15s with a full load of Mx (they always flew live armed). At which point the F15s turned and engaged.
Being sensible F4 crew, carrying only captive sidewinder training rounds, the F4s rolled inverted and pulled for the sea accelerating to VNe. They levelled out at sea level at M1.4+ heading back for AKR. Thankfully the F15s did not chase.
The next day the Israeli ambassador to Queen Anne's Court reportedly had a nice chat with the Foreign Office and pointed out the risks involved in such an intercept and the consequences if it should happen again.
The DC at EPI received a one sided interview with the CinC Cyprus, as did the 280SU controller (Don A....... if I recall correctly) who had a special Wessex laid on to pick him up from the mountain for special delivery.
Nearly the F4's finest hour!
Coming off Southern Q in the late 80's the changeover had just occured when the hooter went. Wattisham this is Neetishead.....scramble one F4 head 090 degrees climb angels 150 Scramble x 3.
Mass panic as one F4 launched in all it's war glory. A little thinks bubble started to occur as to what's with the 090 degrees heading. Unbeknown to all a Polish Mig had got airborne only for the reheats to fail and the chap had punched out. The aircraft merrily continued on it's way.....towards you guessed it, blighty!
The general consensus was this will be a fair fight!
Sadly for the crew concerned the Mig crashed in Belgium with I believe the whole of 2ATAF following it.
Mass panic as one F4 launched in all it's war glory. A little thinks bubble started to occur as to what's with the 090 degrees heading. Unbeknown to all a Polish Mig had got airborne only for the reheats to fail and the chap had punched out. The aircraft merrily continued on it's way.....towards you guessed it, blighty!
The general consensus was this will be a fair fight!
Sadly for the crew concerned the Mig crashed in Belgium with I believe the whole of 2ATAF following it.
Last edited by RHINO; 15th Aug 2012 at 15:33.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Early 80s, one dark night, singleton F4 against the Shack. We had a suspected engine oil leak on No 2. We asked the F4 if they had a torch - one used for night VID would have been perfect.
Instead they flew between Nos 1 and 2 while the nav used his tenny weeny aircrew torch with the red filter.
Now smart money would have been to say "Suspect oil leak" at which pont we might have done a precuationary shut down and just might have RTBd.
Smarter money would have been to say "No" with the same and safer result.
In fact the said "No leak visible" so we carried on
I got £50 for that story. Anyone here care from the Leuchars wing care to own up?
Instead they flew between Nos 1 and 2 while the nav used his tenny weeny aircrew torch with the red filter.
Now smart money would have been to say "Suspect oil leak" at which pont we might have done a precuationary shut down and just might have RTBd.
Smarter money would have been to say "No" with the same and safer result.
In fact the said "No leak visible" so we carried on
I got £50 for that story. Anyone here care from the Leuchars wing care to own up?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
PN,
That brings to mind the classic RT exchange one dark night.
"Lead, 2, are you in burner?"
"Negative"
"In that case you're on fire..."
That brings to mind the classic RT exchange one dark night.
"Lead, 2, are you in burner?"
"Negative"
"In that case you're on fire..."
Last edited by ORAC; 15th Aug 2012 at 20:18.