Any Phantom stories out there?
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Southern Jessieland
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meanwhile back at the ranch...
I can only remember a couple of aerodynamic related developments on the F4K/M at Brough in the early 80's.
One was a high speed towed target from a supplier, fitted in a small rectangular box with the front tapered as a gesture towards making it look like it could go on an aircraft. The flight trials seem to go on for months as the number of ways the target would fail to deploy was incrementally increased with every flight until finally we got a call that they were coming back with a one working. We rushed outside to see the Phantom fly over trailing a tiny little flag. Felt like a bit of let down.
I don't know if it ever went into service.
Another was a proposal to fit strakes to the wing leading edge to increase instantaneous turn rate. Unfortunately not all disciplines got to hear of this idea until a Computational Fluid Dynamicist innocently asked the Stability and Control Section if an 8% forward shift in the aerodynamic centre was a problem.
Oh how we laughed!... OK so we didn't get out much..(the F4K/M was barely stable at full fuel load with anything that stuck forward of the wings - remember those stability indices for the various stores?). Anyway a lot of money had been spent running CFD calculations on the strake proposal and funding had been received on the strength of the performance claims so we had to try to make it work.
A lot of wind tunnel testing later we couldn't find any strake (and we tried some really weird ones) that would not result in a significant forward shift in aerodynamic centre or neutral point so that all came to nought.
Never mind there were still the beat ups - mostly our own test pilots seeing if we were awake but I do remember an all grey 56 sqn did an approach and near touch down on 090 and then cam back up the runway very low - I was looking down on him from the second floor of our offices - a few minutes later.
We thought it was one of our test pilots but apparently our Chief Test Pilot was furious and tried to find out who it was.
Well who ever you were....nice!
One was a high speed towed target from a supplier, fitted in a small rectangular box with the front tapered as a gesture towards making it look like it could go on an aircraft. The flight trials seem to go on for months as the number of ways the target would fail to deploy was incrementally increased with every flight until finally we got a call that they were coming back with a one working. We rushed outside to see the Phantom fly over trailing a tiny little flag. Felt like a bit of let down.
I don't know if it ever went into service.
Another was a proposal to fit strakes to the wing leading edge to increase instantaneous turn rate. Unfortunately not all disciplines got to hear of this idea until a Computational Fluid Dynamicist innocently asked the Stability and Control Section if an 8% forward shift in the aerodynamic centre was a problem.
Oh how we laughed!... OK so we didn't get out much..(the F4K/M was barely stable at full fuel load with anything that stuck forward of the wings - remember those stability indices for the various stores?). Anyway a lot of money had been spent running CFD calculations on the strake proposal and funding had been received on the strength of the performance claims so we had to try to make it work.
A lot of wind tunnel testing later we couldn't find any strake (and we tried some really weird ones) that would not result in a significant forward shift in aerodynamic centre or neutral point so that all came to nought.
Never mind there were still the beat ups - mostly our own test pilots seeing if we were awake but I do remember an all grey 56 sqn did an approach and near touch down on 090 and then cam back up the runway very low - I was looking down on him from the second floor of our offices - a few minutes later.
We thought it was one of our test pilots but apparently our Chief Test Pilot was furious and tried to find out who it was.
Well who ever you were....nice!
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Age: 54
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Heard tale of a certain loud blond, possibly Welsh Nav who dropped the tomato out of his sandwich. Motored the seat down to get it but couldn't reach. Motored the seat fully up to get a better angle but in doing so burnt the motor out. He spent told me he spent the rest of the flight with his head jammed against the canopy, neck bent hoping that he wouldn't need to bang out. Don't recall if he got the tomato.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: ISLE OF MAN
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phantom
RAF St Athan, some time in the eighties. The industrious hum of the BoB At Home Day office being disturbed by a Phantom departing on a zoom climb.
The Steps of College Hall, again some time in the eighties. On a restrictions parade for not having dusted my U bend or something in No.2 Mess. A clear moonlit night, and a Phantom enters stage right and switches on the reheat.
First time I realised that those little ellipses in the reheat flame weren't a trick of a photograph.
little things, nice though
The Steps of College Hall, again some time in the eighties. On a restrictions parade for not having dusted my U bend or something in No.2 Mess. A clear moonlit night, and a Phantom enters stage right and switches on the reheat.
First time I realised that those little ellipses in the reheat flame weren't a trick of a photograph.
little things, nice though
Ah, the oldseat motor. As a very young, trusting pilot doing my CONVEX on my first F4 Sqn, I was lucky enough to be crewed with a navigator (PG) who didn't care much for night flying. My enthusiasm for any flying (day or night) wasn't fully appreciated in the back.
During recovery to a secret base in Lincs one night, he was very bored and, when I declared my intention to do a couple of GCAs for practice, he decided to challenge me to a race.
PG "We motor our seats fully down and then I'll race you to the top."
Me "OK"
When we were both ready, he shouted "GO!"
My seat didn't move. Chuckles from the rear.
PG "So many circuit breakers in the back, Courtney."
Me "Ah!" (or words to that effect.)
My protestations didn't convince him to reset the CB. He didn't even agree to restore power when I pointed out that we would crash if I tried to land whilst sitting on the floor. He only relented when I promised to land off the first approach.
Now, here's a thing. Although the CBs where all a bit of a mystery to me, I have never thought that the seat pan motor CB was in the back. So how did he do that? I cannot recall if a load of other services were isolated by his clever rouse. Any navs care to comment?
During recovery to a secret base in Lincs one night, he was very bored and, when I declared my intention to do a couple of GCAs for practice, he decided to challenge me to a race.
PG "We motor our seats fully down and then I'll race you to the top."
Me "OK"
When we were both ready, he shouted "GO!"
My seat didn't move. Chuckles from the rear.
PG "So many circuit breakers in the back, Courtney."
Me "Ah!" (or words to that effect.)
My protestations didn't convince him to reset the CB. He didn't even agree to restore power when I pointed out that we would crash if I tried to land whilst sitting on the floor. He only relented when I promised to land off the first approach.
Now, here's a thing. Although the CBs where all a bit of a mystery to me, I have never thought that the seat pan motor CB was in the back. So how did he do that? I cannot recall if a load of other services were isolated by his clever rouse. Any navs care to comment?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CM, no idea, but I dimly remember that it was one use of a nav rule in the back - reaching the CBs.
PS
I think that before flying clothing made the picker that there was a little mod to the nav rule.
PS
I think that before flying clothing made the picker that there was a little mod to the nav rule.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 12th Aug 2012 at 14:33.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
F4 on CAP getting bored so old nag starts explaining how they'd carried nucs when he flew them in RAFG and how the nav had to enable the CB in the rear to allow bomb release. Explains to pilot how to set the weapons switches.
Both follow the routine through, pilot follows through and pulls trigger - and centeline tank departs aircraft with a thud followed by hysterical scream from JP.
Aircraft calls RTB as C440 which is duly relayed to Ops who say fit is D440. It is explained that it might have departed as D440, but is now C440. 3 minutes later Sqn calls and same discussion takes place.
Investigation shows that bomb release mechanism was disabled in all aircraft during role change to AD - except in one.......
-----------------------
CY F4 loses outer wing during ACT under NT control and flies around doing low speed handling checks whilst working out what to do. Call from Duty Pilot in tower suggests they try with flaps down. Pilot selects flaps down which opens hyd valves in wing shortly followed by double hyd failure and double ejection.
Pilot subsequently CM for losing aircraft by selecting flaps down - he being the aircraft captain and following stupid DP suggestion....
Both follow the routine through, pilot follows through and pulls trigger - and centeline tank departs aircraft with a thud followed by hysterical scream from JP.
Aircraft calls RTB as C440 which is duly relayed to Ops who say fit is D440. It is explained that it might have departed as D440, but is now C440. 3 minutes later Sqn calls and same discussion takes place.
Investigation shows that bomb release mechanism was disabled in all aircraft during role change to AD - except in one.......
-----------------------
CY F4 loses outer wing during ACT under NT control and flies around doing low speed handling checks whilst working out what to do. Call from Duty Pilot in tower suggests they try with flaps down. Pilot selects flaps down which opens hyd valves in wing shortly followed by double hyd failure and double ejection.
Pilot subsequently CM for losing aircraft by selecting flaps down - he being the aircraft captain and following stupid DP suggestion....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
LU F4 during exercise (as opposed to Coffee C), intercepts a 360 Canberra IMC at night. Performs a late break when X shows and feels a thud which they think is Canberra's wake turbulence.
Canberra, under Border Radar control reports mid-air collision and declares Mayday and diverts to nearest airbase (LM).
F4 controller is to told to tell F4 that Canberra has reported a mid-air (by me as FA) and ask his intentions. Controller Hugh F....... only tells F4 that Canberra has "a problem" and is diverting, and are they OK (I am on landline and unaware of changed message.
F4 believes that their wake turbulence has thrown Canberra around and ask controller to pass on their apologies and that they are going back to CAP. Controller tells me that F4 apologies and is returning to CAP.
I am mystified that an aircraft that has had a midair is not recovering, but GCI, cannot order recovery. I call LU on telebrief and explain circumstances and ask if F4 should RTB, to which Sqn replies in affirmative!!!!
F4 is informed that he is to RTB immediately, pissed off crew, who think they are in trouble for getting so close to Canberra, acknowledge and transit home and are handed off to approach. On checking-in with ATC Duty Pilot asks if they have done a low speed handling check. Mystified crew ask why, and are for first time informed they have had a mid-air.
F4 performs check and lands normally. Inspection of aircraft after landing shows witness marks on underside of wing between tank and sidewinder pylons and also on underside of the horizontal stabiliser. Sidewinder pylon is also deformed rearward by a couple of inches.
Research shows that F4 passed the Canberra pulling high G with the Canberra wingtip tanking passing between the two pylons and scoring the underside of the wing and then the horizontal stabiliser and rupturing in process. Difference between safe recovery and loss of both aircraft about a 1/4".
Canberra, under Border Radar control reports mid-air collision and declares Mayday and diverts to nearest airbase (LM).
F4 controller is to told to tell F4 that Canberra has reported a mid-air (by me as FA) and ask his intentions. Controller Hugh F....... only tells F4 that Canberra has "a problem" and is diverting, and are they OK (I am on landline and unaware of changed message.
F4 believes that their wake turbulence has thrown Canberra around and ask controller to pass on their apologies and that they are going back to CAP. Controller tells me that F4 apologies and is returning to CAP.
I am mystified that an aircraft that has had a midair is not recovering, but GCI, cannot order recovery. I call LU on telebrief and explain circumstances and ask if F4 should RTB, to which Sqn replies in affirmative!!!!
F4 is informed that he is to RTB immediately, pissed off crew, who think they are in trouble for getting so close to Canberra, acknowledge and transit home and are handed off to approach. On checking-in with ATC Duty Pilot asks if they have done a low speed handling check. Mystified crew ask why, and are for first time informed they have had a mid-air.
F4 performs check and lands normally. Inspection of aircraft after landing shows witness marks on underside of wing between tank and sidewinder pylons and also on underside of the horizontal stabiliser. Sidewinder pylon is also deformed rearward by a couple of inches.
Research shows that F4 passed the Canberra pulling high G with the Canberra wingtip tanking passing between the two pylons and scoring the underside of the wing and then the horizontal stabiliser and rupturing in process. Difference between safe recovery and loss of both aircraft about a 1/4".
Last edited by ORAC; 12th Aug 2012 at 15:18.
OC Eng at Suffolk's phinest Phantom base was perhaps not the most popular chap amongst the aircrew. But then he never really got to grips with the playful villainy of chaps like Eric H**p or Jerry U**n...
One happy hour, it is v.hot in the bar. 56(F) suggest breaking the window to let some more air in. OC Eng, being PMC, is not terribly happy at this idea and announces that anyone throwing anything will be expected to pay for it. The 2 Fg Offs are only just persuaded by the boss not to throw OC Eng through the window.... Meanwhile, someone does a runner and hops out of the bog window, before carefully removing the putty and window from behind the curtains which have carefully been pulled on the inside. Winks and nods are exchanged, Eric (I think it was) announces he's had enough, picks up a bar stool and hurls it through the curtains - whereupon mate on the other side drops several milk bottles onto the concrete which make a pleasing noise...
PMC goes ballistic, boss wonders how to calm him down. Fg Offs then reveal their jolly jape, boss breathes a sigh of relief but OC Eng still doesn't see the funny side....
Unfortunately a tiny corner of the bar window is damaged, so PSA charge £100 to fix it......
On another occasion, one of the jets is due to go to St Athan for a major. it has been suffering several utility hyd failures, so at Met Brief, OC Eng suggests it goes there flapless. Much muttering from the assembled throng, to which OC Eng responds "I'll go in the back seat, if you like".
To which a voice responds "You can go in the f*****g front seat, mate!"
Much laughter ensues, including from the Stn Cdr who then suggests that perhaps it might be better to get it fixed first, before attempting to land on such a short runway.....
One happy hour, it is v.hot in the bar. 56(F) suggest breaking the window to let some more air in. OC Eng, being PMC, is not terribly happy at this idea and announces that anyone throwing anything will be expected to pay for it. The 2 Fg Offs are only just persuaded by the boss not to throw OC Eng through the window.... Meanwhile, someone does a runner and hops out of the bog window, before carefully removing the putty and window from behind the curtains which have carefully been pulled on the inside. Winks and nods are exchanged, Eric (I think it was) announces he's had enough, picks up a bar stool and hurls it through the curtains - whereupon mate on the other side drops several milk bottles onto the concrete which make a pleasing noise...
PMC goes ballistic, boss wonders how to calm him down. Fg Offs then reveal their jolly jape, boss breathes a sigh of relief but OC Eng still doesn't see the funny side....
Unfortunately a tiny corner of the bar window is damaged, so PSA charge £100 to fix it......On another occasion, one of the jets is due to go to St Athan for a major. it has been suffering several utility hyd failures, so at Met Brief, OC Eng suggests it goes there flapless. Much muttering from the assembled throng, to which OC Eng responds "I'll go in the back seat, if you like".
To which a voice responds "You can go in the f*****g front seat, mate!"
Much laughter ensues, including from the Stn Cdr who then suggests that perhaps it might be better to get it fixed first, before attempting to land on such a short runway.....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
LU QRA during tension in Central Region (CR) when WP is thought to be about to intervene in Poland. Keflavik E3A have deployed to CR and USN E2C are filling role.
LU F4 is happily chasing Bear Fs south of iceland without keeping a close eye on position and E2C does not provide regular updates without being asked. F4 pilot has look at fuel gauge and has prickle of back of neck and asks for pigeons to tanker and to base. Reaction to the response is an immediate Mayday call and a turn east towards UK with wing tanks, mx and pylons being jettisoned and a request for the tanker to be vectored towards F4 at max possible speed.
Tanker heads west and is turned in front of F4 as soon as possible. F4 plugs in and starts to take fuel. Subsequent report indicates that less than 2 minutes usable fuel remaining as fuel flow started.
LU F4 is happily chasing Bear Fs south of iceland without keeping a close eye on position and E2C does not provide regular updates without being asked. F4 pilot has look at fuel gauge and has prickle of back of neck and asks for pigeons to tanker and to base. Reaction to the response is an immediate Mayday call and a turn east towards UK with wing tanks, mx and pylons being jettisoned and a request for the tanker to be vectored towards F4 at max possible speed.
Tanker heads west and is turned in front of F4 as soon as possible. F4 plugs in and starts to take fuel. Subsequent report indicates that less than 2 minutes usable fuel remaining as fuel flow started.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Call from Duty Pilot in tower suggests they try with flaps down. Pilot selects flaps down which opens hyd valves in wing shortly followed by double hyd failure and double ejection.
Pilot subsequently CM for losing aircraft by selecting flaps down - he being the aircraft captain and following stupid DP suggestion....
Pilot subsequently CM for losing aircraft by selecting flaps down - he being the aircraft captain and following stupid DP suggestion....
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PORTUGAL
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More on tanking.
I was No2 in a pair of F4's flying from Dubai to Tengah. The leader's Nav was not considered the sharpest knife in the box. (His nickname was "Pathfinder". Some of you may remember him.) Luckily, mine was very sharp. After an hour or so, my Nav reckons we are way north of track for the next tanker bracket and so we get wider and wider in our line abreast formation.
"Close it up" cries the leader.
"Keep on this heading" says my Nav.
Eventually, we are many miles apart.
Up comes the Air to Air Tacan and we find the tanker no problem.
"OK Lead, we have the tanker, suggest you come starboard to join us"
"Roger" from the Leader. After some considerable time, and after we have finished our plug, he comes into view and to his great credit, he gets in first go. He took on 20,000lbs of fuel. Even allowing for the fact that he was burning as well as taking on fuel, we reckoned they must have been sphincter tighteningly short.
Cold beers on arrival at Tengah, and no further mention of my crap formation positioning.
I was No2 in a pair of F4's flying from Dubai to Tengah. The leader's Nav was not considered the sharpest knife in the box. (His nickname was "Pathfinder". Some of you may remember him.) Luckily, mine was very sharp. After an hour or so, my Nav reckons we are way north of track for the next tanker bracket and so we get wider and wider in our line abreast formation.
"Close it up" cries the leader.
"Keep on this heading" says my Nav.
Eventually, we are many miles apart.
Up comes the Air to Air Tacan and we find the tanker no problem.
"OK Lead, we have the tanker, suggest you come starboard to join us"
"Roger" from the Leader. After some considerable time, and after we have finished our plug, he comes into view and to his great credit, he gets in first go. He took on 20,000lbs of fuel. Even allowing for the fact that he was burning as well as taking on fuel, we reckoned they must have been sphincter tighteningly short.
Cold beers on arrival at Tengah, and no further mention of my crap formation positioning.
Battle of Britain day 1982 and I'm on QRA. In the previous 6 months, I've seen a tanker perhaps twice, as most of them have been at Ascension.
In the afternoon, a live scramble is ordered. As I'm noting down the details, I ask about the tanker call-sign, as I don't recognise it....
"It's a KC-135 from Mildenhall", I'm told. Even I know that it doesn't have any wing pods, so query what to do - but time is ticking by and I have to get airborne.
"Well, there's an adaptor on the boom with a drogue on the end", is the sum total of the brief.....
We crank up and launch off, then find the tanker and note the ridiculous donkey dick hanging off the end of the boom. So now it's a case of teach yourself BDA prodding with a heavy 3-tank, 8 missile jet. Every time I miss, the damn woman in the 135 moves the thing, destroying any mental picture I've managed to work out. But eventually I make contact and push until fuel flows - which it does rather more quickly than the usual Victor flow rate.
A couple more jousts as we head north, then we are told that the Russians have turned back. So home we go.....
Later, I'm given a hard time for having taken so long to prod. Without the benefit of any brief, let alone dual training, of course..... "It's just another tanker", is his summary.
A year later, I'm twiddling my thumbs in Wg Ops when I happen to see a signal from the same tosser of a Flt Cdr who had criticised me. The squadron has just had a couple of days 135 jousting - in Charlie fit, not Delta 440, I would add - and have lost a couple of probe tips in the process. So he's sent a signal to Starfleet saying how essential it is for dual training to continue against the 135, due to the difficulty of prodding the BDA....
With nothing to lose, I ring him. "I thought you said the 135 was just another tanker.........".
Two faced bar steward......
In the afternoon, a live scramble is ordered. As I'm noting down the details, I ask about the tanker call-sign, as I don't recognise it....
"It's a KC-135 from Mildenhall", I'm told. Even I know that it doesn't have any wing pods, so query what to do - but time is ticking by and I have to get airborne.
"Well, there's an adaptor on the boom with a drogue on the end", is the sum total of the brief.....
We crank up and launch off, then find the tanker and note the ridiculous donkey dick hanging off the end of the boom. So now it's a case of teach yourself BDA prodding with a heavy 3-tank, 8 missile jet. Every time I miss, the damn woman in the 135 moves the thing, destroying any mental picture I've managed to work out. But eventually I make contact and push until fuel flows - which it does rather more quickly than the usual Victor flow rate.
A couple more jousts as we head north, then we are told that the Russians have turned back. So home we go.....
Later, I'm given a hard time for having taken so long to prod. Without the benefit of any brief, let alone dual training, of course..... "It's just another tanker", is his summary.
A year later, I'm twiddling my thumbs in Wg Ops when I happen to see a signal from the same tosser of a Flt Cdr who had criticised me. The squadron has just had a couple of days 135 jousting - in Charlie fit, not Delta 440, I would add - and have lost a couple of probe tips in the process. So he's sent a signal to Starfleet saying how essential it is for dual training to continue against the 135, due to the difficulty of prodding the BDA....
With nothing to lose, I ring him. "I thought you said the 135 was just another tanker.........".
Two faced bar steward......
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Aug 2012 at 18:34.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BEagle, digressing, if it is any consolation that kit was 17 years old when you used it.
When the Valiant force folded the cousins kindly provided KC135 for QRA.
When the Valiant force folded the cousins kindly provided KC135 for QRA.
BEagle. I'm with you. The Iron Lady was (still is) a bitch. It works, but it's never pretty. Even once you're in (so to speak) there's so much that can go wrong.
Your point about the fuel flowing much faster than a UK tanker is spot on. We used to have to ask them to turn off one of the fuel pumps to prevent the 135 from rupturing the F3 fuel tanks; air couldn't get out fast enough.
The F4 could take it, though.
Your point about the fuel flowing much faster than a UK tanker is spot on. We used to have to ask them to turn off one of the fuel pumps to prevent the 135 from rupturing the F3 fuel tanks; air couldn't get out fast enough.
The F4 could take it, though.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The KC135 was of course intended to refuel the B52 so needed a high transfer rate. The F4 had been designed for refuelling from the KC135 (with receptical).