RAF Observers
Possibly in a recent RAF Historical Society Journal, which I can't access at the moment.
Gentleman Aviator
One was slaving away on the 4th Floor of MoD Main Building when the WSO/Op "RAF" brevet was being staffed. Originally and (IMHO) incredibly, the original draft had the Crown only on WSO (ie commssioned) brevets!
Until we pointed out that whern we had non-commissioned pilots, their wings also had crowns ..
And of course I write as a fully paid up, commissioned member of the TWMR!
And I'm sure I saw Simon Bryant with a WSO brevet?
Until we pointed out that whern we had non-commissioned pilots, their wings also had crowns ..
And of course I write as a fully paid up, commissioned member of the TWMR!
And I'm sure I saw Simon Bryant with a WSO brevet?
Interestingly MOD call the Pilots wings a 'badge' and the rear crew wing a 'brevet' 
Qualification Badges
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]
Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
0712. Flying & Parachute Badges. This section deals with those flying badges (QR J727 & 728) and Parachute badges (QR 434 – 436)
currently in issue
BADGE DESCRIPTION
Pilot. Wings of drab silk embroidery with monogram 'RAF' in centre, surrounded by laurel leaf of brown silk and
surmounted by a crown – on dark blue melton cloth.
Navigator. The letter 'N' of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm)
long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Air Electronics Officer ]
or Operator (AE) ] As for Navigator, but with alternative letters, in brackets. (See Note)
Air Engineer (E) ]
Air Loadmaster (LM) ]
Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below).
Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will
be no further provisioning of the current brevet.
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an
outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace
Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above).
Fighter Controller (FC). The letters ‘FC’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
Airborne Technician (AT). The letters ‘AT’ of drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35
cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth.
No WSO brevet for Sir Simon Bryant - thank goodness!
Furthermore, in answer to the Apprenticeship 3 years question.
A. It's impossible to compare as Flying Trg for commissioned aircrew has many stages and is not a straight through course - in my time 5 months Initial Officer Trg, 19 months Basic Nav Trg, 6 months TWU and 6 months FJ OCU = roughly 3 years with the odd 1-2 week "hold" on top.
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"No WSO brevet for Sir Simon Bryant - thank goodness!"
Although he did one wear one on his woolly pully iirc. Probably couldn't get a new 'N' brevet from stores following one of the many changes of jumper design....
Although he did one wear one on his woolly pully iirc. Probably couldn't get a new 'N' brevet from stores following one of the many changes of jumper design....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Then Brian MacLaren went from Sgt AEOp to Air Cdre.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
On another current thread (58 Nav course), ICM posted that the Nav course 'was all done inside 12 months'. He gave as an example No 72 course at Hullavington which ran from Jan to Dec 1965.
I have just called a nav chum from those days who dug out his records. They showed that his nav course ran from 1 Sep 59 to 30 Aug 60. I make that 12 months. So if these two navs are right, the nav course was one month shorter than the AEO course. I'm checking the pilots course duration in the early 60's.
I have just called a nav chum from those days who dug out his records. They showed that his nav course ran from 1 Sep 59 to 30 Aug 60. I make that 12 months. So if these two navs are right, the nav course was one month shorter than the AEO course. I'm checking the pilots course duration in the early 60's.
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As PN said, the early Nav Rad courses at BCBC Lindholme ran for a full year. I believe students had to do much of the NBS/H2S syllabus right down to circuit level. It must have needed good maths and physics and a real dedication to hard work.
So how did the P staff persuade newly qualified Navs to opt for the Nav Rad training when it meant a further year of hard graft. And it had the prospect of life in the V force at the end of it. It must have been a hard sell.
So how did the P staff persuade newly qualified Navs to opt for the Nav Rad training when it meant a further year of hard graft. And it had the prospect of life in the V force at the end of it. It must have been a hard sell.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ron, persuade? You must be joking. If you were an abo it was your course commander, CNI and poster that determined your posting.
If you were a retread there was indeed some persuasion or more like mis-selling. We had an ex-Canberra nav and an ex-JARIC nav and both had been given the fast ball albeit for the 4 month course. Another retread decided he didn't want to pass and did little work in ground school. At the culmination we underwent a Viva with all the kit set out but power off.
His Viva lasted 7 1/2 hours. Needless to say, they wouldn't let him fail.
If you were a retread there was indeed some persuasion or more like mis-selling. We had an ex-Canberra nav and an ex-JARIC nav and both had been given the fast ball albeit for the 4 month course. Another retread decided he didn't want to pass and did little work in ground school. At the culmination we underwent a Viva with all the kit set out but power off.
His Viva lasted 7 1/2 hours. Needless to say, they wouldn't let him fail.
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the observer assisting the pilot with his navigation (pointing out landmarks etc).
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Daf H, the latter not the former I presume, although not too much difference?
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I believe in the German Air Force (WWI) the observer was always an officer and a/c captain. The pilot was a Sgt and looked on as some kind of chauffeur in their recce 'planes.
I have no vested interest in the pilot v others by the way....
The Dennett EngO referred to in an above post was John Dennett, he was Sengo on 3 at Gut in the late 70's. There was also a WgCdr Cheeseman at Sealand in the early 80's, an eng with pilot's wings and the CO was a Group Captain eng who's name escapes me now but he wore an AEO badge.
I have no vested interest in the pilot v others by the way....
The Dennett EngO referred to in an above post was John Dennett, he was Sengo on 3 at Gut in the late 70's. There was also a WgCdr Cheeseman at Sealand in the early 80's, an eng with pilot's wings and the CO was a Group Captain eng who's name escapes me now but he wore an AEO badge.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Dennett EngO referred to in an above post was John Dennett, he was Sengo on 3 at Gut in the late 70's. There was also a WgCdr Cheeseman at Sealand in the early 80's, an eng with pilot's wings and the CO was a Group Captain eng who's name escapes me now but he wore an AEO badge.
I don't know how much benefit the Eng branch got from a relatively small number of aircrew trained officers.
thing,
Not exactly the same in the Maritime Air Force (Nimrod) but very similar idea!!
I believe in the German Air Force (WWI) the observer was always an officer and a/c captain. The pilot was a Sgt and looked on as some kind of chauffeur in their recce 'planes.
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PN - a few points about your recent posts
Thank for putting me right on how Nav Rad's were selected. I should have realised that a certain amount of 'leaning' would have been needed. I bet it caused a lot of resentment. I remember on long overseas sectors our Nav's would sometimes change seats. ....how the Nav Rad loved to get his paws on the INS and Green Satin for an afternoon.
In the banter about AEO's who reached high rank you introduced the name of a two star who, in the mid 70's, was done for 'cottageing'. He was, in fact, a pilot and not an AEO. ...thought I'd mention it.
I too remember the scheme whereby Eng Officers graduating from the RAF Tech College at Henlow could apply to do an aircrew tour as either a pilot or AEO. But I don't think they had the option to remain in the GD branch after one tour. Career Eng Officers from Henlow were far too valuable to sit around in Squadron crew rooms playing cards/ uckers
Thank for putting me right on how Nav Rad's were selected. I should have realised that a certain amount of 'leaning' would have been needed. I bet it caused a lot of resentment. I remember on long overseas sectors our Nav's would sometimes change seats. ....how the Nav Rad loved to get his paws on the INS and Green Satin for an afternoon.
In the banter about AEO's who reached high rank you introduced the name of a two star who, in the mid 70's, was done for 'cottageing'. He was, in fact, a pilot and not an AEO. ...thought I'd mention it.
I too remember the scheme whereby Eng Officers graduating from the RAF Tech College at Henlow could apply to do an aircrew tour as either a pilot or AEO. But I don't think they had the option to remain in the GD branch after one tour. Career Eng Officers from Henlow were far too valuable to sit around in Squadron crew rooms playing cards/ uckers