Iran Air 655 Incident- ACI last night.
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Food for thought with the defence of London and the Olympics coming up.
Otherwise a completely pointless thread. Perhaps Jakey could start a thread about the whole of World War One for us to discuss?
Otherwise a completely pointless thread. Perhaps Jakey could start a thread about the whole of World War One for us to discuss?
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Strange how Jakey hasn't posted since 2203 hrs - I bet his PC clock is slightly out and his mummy and daddy set his parental controls to block Internet access from 2200 hrs 
Thread Starter
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Morning boys..
I floated this on 4 or 5 forums yesterday- most agreed, save for this one. I wanted to prove that there is a totally different perspective and slightly warped perspective about this in military circles.
I was right.
You should really look at the disclaimer about journo's.
I'll leave you in peace now. I've gathered what I need.
Thanks for playing.
Laterz
x
I floated this on 4 or 5 forums yesterday- most agreed, save for this one. I wanted to prove that there is a totally different perspective and slightly warped perspective about this in military circles.
I was right.
You should really look at the disclaimer about journo's.
I'll leave you in peace now. I've gathered what I need.
Thanks for playing.
Laterz
x
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Jakey Lefty Journalist
theres a flaw in your plan
how do you know the people posting here actually are in military circles?
Many of them here I know to be just as much impostors as yourself.
And many of those who are not imposters, retired 20 or 30 years go and can hardly be regarded as representative of the modern military.
On the other hand, maybe the fact that you think there is a "totally different perspective" here is due to the fact that some of the posters here have actually gone out and stared death in the face - and survived. Just maybe they know something that you don't. And who are you to judge their perspective as "warped" with regard to that of anyone else? Who appointed you jury, judge and god?
theres a flaw in your plan
how do you know the people posting here actually are in military circles?
Many of them here I know to be just as much impostors as yourself.
And many of those who are not imposters, retired 20 or 30 years go and can hardly be regarded as representative of the modern military.
On the other hand, maybe the fact that you think there is a "totally different perspective" here is due to the fact that some of the posters here have actually gone out and stared death in the face - and survived. Just maybe they know something that you don't. And who are you to judge their perspective as "warped" with regard to that of anyone else? Who appointed you jury, judge and god?
Last edited by Milo Minderbinder; 18th Jul 2012 at 08:23.
Jakey
If you are a journo, what were these other forums you canvassed for opinion? Are we looking at another piece of idiotic journalistic reporting where interviews with ill-informed and ill-educated nit-wits outside Poundland that are interviewed about the balance-of-payments?
To balance your argument, you need to provide links to these other forums so that we can see what others are saying.
Now here's the really controversial piece from my side regarding opinions and democracy; should you be able to hold an opinion and be able to vote on something that you cannot demonstrably show any knowledge of? A good example is the Scottish vote, there are a lot of people North of the Border that have no idea what such a vote would do. Even if the issues were spelt out in black and white, some of them would still not understand. As long as they get their 16-pack of Tennants, 100x fags and Scottish Premiership on TV, they really don't put much more effort into needing to understand things. Other examples in the UK are: The Euro Referendum, the Libor "scandal", public sector pensions, the NHS, etc... The real scandle is the media, their power to manipulate the ill-educated masses and their lack of moral compass - anything will be said that will shift papers!
I can see a point fast approaching, when the ill-informed majority will far outweigh the educated minority - in fact Nu-Labours dumbing down of society for 13+ years following Major's policy of turning into the UK into a bunch of "shop keepers" has done irreperable damage IMHO. Your inability to listen to people close to the field of your research is case in point, where it looks like you will use an ill-informed majority to "spin" the answer that you want in order to sell copy of a grotty little article.
But, hey, I guess that's democracy for you; it works if the populace is educated and falls down if not.
I gave up reading newspapers several years ago when exposed to the real-world in an all-seeing post close to uncluttered intelligence - at that point I was almost floored by the realisation that barely 20% in the daily newspapers and journals is actually true!
LJ
If you are a journo, what were these other forums you canvassed for opinion? Are we looking at another piece of idiotic journalistic reporting where interviews with ill-informed and ill-educated nit-wits outside Poundland that are interviewed about the balance-of-payments?
To balance your argument, you need to provide links to these other forums so that we can see what others are saying.
Now here's the really controversial piece from my side regarding opinions and democracy; should you be able to hold an opinion and be able to vote on something that you cannot demonstrably show any knowledge of? A good example is the Scottish vote, there are a lot of people North of the Border that have no idea what such a vote would do. Even if the issues were spelt out in black and white, some of them would still not understand. As long as they get their 16-pack of Tennants, 100x fags and Scottish Premiership on TV, they really don't put much more effort into needing to understand things. Other examples in the UK are: The Euro Referendum, the Libor "scandal", public sector pensions, the NHS, etc... The real scandle is the media, their power to manipulate the ill-educated masses and their lack of moral compass - anything will be said that will shift papers!
I can see a point fast approaching, when the ill-informed majority will far outweigh the educated minority - in fact Nu-Labours dumbing down of society for 13+ years following Major's policy of turning into the UK into a bunch of "shop keepers" has done irreperable damage IMHO. Your inability to listen to people close to the field of your research is case in point, where it looks like you will use an ill-informed majority to "spin" the answer that you want in order to sell copy of a grotty little article.
But, hey, I guess that's democracy for you; it works if the populace is educated and falls down if not.
I gave up reading newspapers several years ago when exposed to the real-world in an all-seeing post close to uncluttered intelligence - at that point I was almost floored by the realisation that barely 20% in the daily newspapers and journals is actually true!
LJ
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Assuming Jakey is a journalist, such methods are a super illustration of the lack of depth to modern reporting. Canvass opinions from an anonyous online forum and pass it off as proof? The Age in Melbourne have certainly, and somewhat unashamedly, done so in the past with an article I can no longer find which proclaimed that the British were returning en masse to the UK from Australia based on reading a pomsinoz forum thread!
The disappointing thing is that some will take what Jakey or journos in general write and use it as their opinion. So much simpler than forming your own.
The disappointing thing is that some will take what Jakey or journos in general write and use it as their opinion. So much simpler than forming your own.
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In deference to some journalists though, there is every chance that some trolls on here have no actual gainful employment but instead run a blog with a readership of four where they present opinions as fact and dream that oneday a fifth person may read the blog.
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What threat was an F-14?
One point that hasn't been made is that the bogie was identifed as an F-14.
Incredibly capable fighter but in 1988 it wasn't exactly king kong of the air to surface battleground. IIRC it had precisly no stand-off anti ship capability at that stage. I don't believe the Iranians ever used the F-14 in ground attack at all, it was too valuable an asset in its primary role to be risked with dumb bombs.
Also 350knots is no where near what it would be doing in an attack profile irrespective of whether it actually descended or not. I know we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight but I think the decision process was heavily flawed.
So while I agree that the captain did fire in belief that he was defending his ship, and hence not culpable of anything approaching murder, his threat analysis was very poor and he was wrong with tragic consequences. Also awarding the guy an honour was very wrong.
What was the minimum range the USS Vincennes could engage at? Surely there are optical instruments on a cruiser capable of visually identifying a threat outside of minimum range. Even fighters have to visually acquire a threat before firing, is it different for a ship?
Re comparing this to KAL007, I don't believe they are comparable, the pilot of the Sukhoi Su-15 fighter knew full well it was a Korean airlines 747 before he fired a missile. He actually fired his gun across the nose of the 747 before retreating to safe distance for a missile shot. He never told GC it was a PA 'because they never asked'.
So Jakey if you want a murder trial go chase the Russian pilot not the Yankie captain who at least thought he was firing on a fighter (even if the most it could do was sonic boom him).
Incredibly capable fighter but in 1988 it wasn't exactly king kong of the air to surface battleground. IIRC it had precisly no stand-off anti ship capability at that stage. I don't believe the Iranians ever used the F-14 in ground attack at all, it was too valuable an asset in its primary role to be risked with dumb bombs.
Also 350knots is no where near what it would be doing in an attack profile irrespective of whether it actually descended or not. I know we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight but I think the decision process was heavily flawed.
So while I agree that the captain did fire in belief that he was defending his ship, and hence not culpable of anything approaching murder, his threat analysis was very poor and he was wrong with tragic consequences. Also awarding the guy an honour was very wrong.
What was the minimum range the USS Vincennes could engage at? Surely there are optical instruments on a cruiser capable of visually identifying a threat outside of minimum range. Even fighters have to visually acquire a threat before firing, is it different for a ship?
Re comparing this to KAL007, I don't believe they are comparable, the pilot of the Sukhoi Su-15 fighter knew full well it was a Korean airlines 747 before he fired a missile. He actually fired his gun across the nose of the 747 before retreating to safe distance for a missile shot. He never told GC it was a PA 'because they never asked'.
So Jakey if you want a murder trial go chase the Russian pilot not the Yankie captain who at least thought he was firing on a fighter (even if the most it could do was sonic boom him).
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At the risk of opening up old sores.... Spud is yet another name with unfortunate connotations in Scotland.
The character from Trainspotting who regularly ****s the bed, and isn't too bright.
The character from Trainspotting who regularly ****s the bed, and isn't too bright.
Spud
The Iranians are very good at adapting all sorts of things to fit - here is an open source picture of a Hawk Surface-To-Air Missile (SAM) that was adapted to be fired from an Iranian F14.
Also, if carrying some "lash-up" like that above, a speed of 350kts may be quite reasonable if a full envelope trial has not been done. Furthermore, pulse-doppler RADARs are good at measuring speed in lock, but not so great in search - the aircraft could be doing 300kts but the RADAR shows 350-400kts whilst tracking it in some form of wide area tracking mode. Finally, engaging at min range would not help as anti-ship missiles have a long range - even smallish ones like Excocet (remember the loss of SHEFFIELD? It never saw the Super Etendard).
Get the picture?
LJ
The Iranians are very good at adapting all sorts of things to fit - here is an open source picture of a Hawk Surface-To-Air Missile (SAM) that was adapted to be fired from an Iranian F14.
Also, if carrying some "lash-up" like that above, a speed of 350kts may be quite reasonable if a full envelope trial has not been done. Furthermore, pulse-doppler RADARs are good at measuring speed in lock, but not so great in search - the aircraft could be doing 300kts but the RADAR shows 350-400kts whilst tracking it in some form of wide area tracking mode. Finally, engaging at min range would not help as anti-ship missiles have a long range - even smallish ones like Excocet (remember the loss of SHEFFIELD? It never saw the Super Etendard).
Get the picture?
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 18th Jul 2012 at 09:16.
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Just have a look at his previous posts, and the way they r wrote, and I think you can assume that this guy is not a troll and a journo. British journalism keeps to a pretty low standard, yes, but still....
I remember seeing a BBC (?) documentary about that shoot-down, live film shot during the incident. It was all 'high fives' and back-slaps aboard the ship until they got word about what sort of wreckage they were recovering. Oops....
It wasn't the proudest hour in our military history, no, but 'murder'? 'No,' to that as well. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Aegis system, at the time, presented data from the Iranian F-14 as if it were coming from the airliner, or at least it could be misread that way: in essence, the Airbus was 'tagged' as an F-14, when nobody thought to check any further before firing the fatal shot.
It's tough trying to understand the gap between civilian life and what goes on in the military. Perhaps Jakey should try a visit to someplace hot to see if that expands his understanding a bit. 'Hey, Jakey! Go check out that person to see what is under the burqa, would you? There's a good lad!'
Absent his intervention somebody might end up being shot as a potential suicide bomber, just because someone else isn't willing to take chances! We need more people like Jakey in our world!
I remember seeing a BBC (?) documentary about that shoot-down, live film shot during the incident. It was all 'high fives' and back-slaps aboard the ship until they got word about what sort of wreckage they were recovering. Oops....
It wasn't the proudest hour in our military history, no, but 'murder'? 'No,' to that as well. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Aegis system, at the time, presented data from the Iranian F-14 as if it were coming from the airliner, or at least it could be misread that way: in essence, the Airbus was 'tagged' as an F-14, when nobody thought to check any further before firing the fatal shot.
It's tough trying to understand the gap between civilian life and what goes on in the military. Perhaps Jakey should try a visit to someplace hot to see if that expands his understanding a bit. 'Hey, Jakey! Go check out that person to see what is under the burqa, would you? There's a good lad!'
Absent his intervention somebody might end up being shot as a potential suicide bomber, just because someone else isn't willing to take chances! We need more people like Jakey in our world!