Bomber Command Memorial
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Spare a thought..
Just look at the faces of these very ordinary Kiwis who, as very young men went out night after night. This trip to the UK can't have been easy for them, even with the help provided. Their ages range from mid 80s to mid 90s. They are no different really from a group of Englishmen, or Australians, or Canadians, but they opted to be there and that says heaps to me. They are a part of a bunch of young guys the like of which we will probably never see again. Not my generation, but I have enormous respect for all of them. Mind you, it's just as well they landed at Brize; had they gone to Heathrow they would have been directed to the Aliens gate!
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Before I respond to the above comments on the Jones article may I say that my father flew in Bomber command and was decorated for his achievements. i also contributed financially to the memorial in his memory.
I found the Jones piece to be a fair comment. There is no doubt the veterans will be well pleased with such a grand monument to the past glory and memory. BUT why has it been built where it is and on such a grand scale. The cynic would say that it more to say about the current perceptions of the RAF about themselves and that it is adjacent to the RAF Club....but let's not be cynical.
I can think of no other recent example of a memorial being built on such a scale other than the main memorial at the National Arboretum. The BC memorial too grand, in an odd place (Green Park is supposed to be devoid of memorials) and contrasts badly with the adjacent Wellington Arch. The central sculpture is outstanding but why was it not placed at Alrewas?
Returning to my cynicism I find it interesting that most recent military memorials in London have been of RAF making (Bomber command, Park (next to The Athenaeum Club) and Battle of Britain (on the embankment)). The only other recent military memorials have been much smaller in scale - The Tank Regiment (opp Liberal Club), The Ghurka (opp MoD) and Fleet Air Arm (outside MoD). All relatively small statements but with equal meaning and emotion to the veterans as the most recent monstrosity.
I found the Jones piece to be a fair comment. There is no doubt the veterans will be well pleased with such a grand monument to the past glory and memory. BUT why has it been built where it is and on such a grand scale. The cynic would say that it more to say about the current perceptions of the RAF about themselves and that it is adjacent to the RAF Club....but let's not be cynical.
I can think of no other recent example of a memorial being built on such a scale other than the main memorial at the National Arboretum. The BC memorial too grand, in an odd place (Green Park is supposed to be devoid of memorials) and contrasts badly with the adjacent Wellington Arch. The central sculpture is outstanding but why was it not placed at Alrewas?
Returning to my cynicism I find it interesting that most recent military memorials in London have been of RAF making (Bomber command, Park (next to The Athenaeum Club) and Battle of Britain (on the embankment)). The only other recent military memorials have been much smaller in scale - The Tank Regiment (opp Liberal Club), The Ghurka (opp MoD) and Fleet Air Arm (outside MoD). All relatively small statements but with equal meaning and emotion to the veterans as the most recent monstrosity.
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Why so much agonising over the BC Memorial? Surely all that is required is to answer the following questions.
Is it a deserved tribute to those who died during and since those operations and the survivors who become fewer by the month? YES
Is it long overdue? YES
Is it ostentatious and expensive compared to the price paid by those it commemorates? NO
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to express it. Those remembered at the BC Memorial played no small part in safeguarding those rights for the intellectuals now criticising that Memorial.
Is it a deserved tribute to those who died during and since those operations and the survivors who become fewer by the month? YES
Is it long overdue? YES
Is it ostentatious and expensive compared to the price paid by those it commemorates? NO
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to express it. Those remembered at the BC Memorial played no small part in safeguarding those rights for the intellectuals now criticising that Memorial.
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Shack,
A rather meaningless question. Size and scale are about aesthetics not the memory. The central sculpture on its own would be sufficient to represent the sacrifice and be in keeping with other recent memorials in London.
Nobody is doubting the courage and sacrifice, not even Mr Jones, but they are questioning the actual monument.
Is it ostentatious and expensive compared to the price paid by those it commemorates?
Nobody is doubting the courage and sacrifice, not even Mr Jones, but they are questioning the actual monument.
Last edited by Bismark; 5th Jul 2012 at 15:03.
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Bismark
We must agree to disagree on this one Bismark. I can only say that for me there is nothing distasteful about this memorial which is what you imply by the use of the word aesthetics.
A rather meaningless question. Size and scale are about aesthetics not the memory. The central sculpture on its own would be sufficient to represent the sacrifice and be in keeping with other recent memorials in London.
Last edited by Shack37; 9th Jul 2012 at 22:22.
Bismark, I'm at a loss to understand what you are getting at here. Do you think that the RAF Fighter Command and the RAF Bomber Command Memorials, which represent respectively preventing being invaded by, and ensuring victory over Hitler (as with Nelson and Wellington against Napoleon), should have been tidied away to Alrewas, should not have been built at all, or built but on a much smaller scale? I'm the first to admit that any or none of those options might appeal to some and that it is all a matter of opinion, but much the same might well have been said of Nelson's Column, the Wellington Arch, Waterloo Bridge(!), or umpteen others.
I think that a loss rate exceeding 50% resulting in the loss of 55573 volunteers is a big thing, that what they achieved for this country and indeed for many other countries is a big thing, and that a suitably big and central memorial to commemorate that sacrifice is appropriate.
I quite like its aesthetics as well, but no doubt that says more about me than it does about the BC Memorial.
I think that a loss rate exceeding 50% resulting in the loss of 55573 volunteers is a big thing, that what they achieved for this country and indeed for many other countries is a big thing, and that a suitably big and central memorial to commemorate that sacrifice is appropriate.
I quite like its aesthetics as well, but no doubt that says more about me than it does about the BC Memorial.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 5th Jul 2012 at 18:12.
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Chug,
You are right, it is a matter of personal opinion. Unlike the monuments you mention the BC and BoB memorials, whilst grand are in odd, insignificant places and not in any form of context. The design of the BC memorial in particular is out of scale with its surroundings and unnecessarily large.
In addition it was the policy in London not to erect any more large memorials in central London and is why the national memorial to those who have died on active service since the war is at Alrewas. It is also why there was such strong local objection to the memorial being placed in Green Park and it had to be forced through Westminster Council. The only reason I can see why the memorial is where it is is due to ihe proximity of the RAF Club.
You are right, it is a matter of personal opinion. Unlike the monuments you mention the BC and BoB memorials, whilst grand are in odd, insignificant places and not in any form of context. The design of the BC memorial in particular is out of scale with its surroundings and unnecessarily large.
In addition it was the policy in London not to erect any more large memorials in central London and is why the national memorial to those who have died on active service since the war is at Alrewas. It is also why there was such strong local objection to the memorial being placed in Green Park and it had to be forced through Westminster Council. The only reason I can see why the memorial is where it is is due to ihe proximity of the RAF Club.
Have you any idea how insulting your words are, Bismark? I know that "It's only banter, Old Boy" is now the retort to any slight taken, but if I were to say that Nelson's column is totally out of scale to the surrounding buildings, that the only reason that it is there is its proximity to the Admiralty, that his statue alone would have been quite sufficient on its own, then I would be guilty of gross insensitivity, without any concern for the feelings of the Senior Service.
The RAF is the junior Service as we are forever being reminded. We are proud of its record in WWII which historically rates on a par with the threat posed to this nation by Napoleonic France. Our architectural tastes may not be to your liking but credit us at least with rather more than the crassness that you suggest by implying that we prefer our memorials to be within staggering distance of the Club Bar!
The RAF is the junior Service as we are forever being reminded. We are proud of its record in WWII which historically rates on a par with the threat posed to this nation by Napoleonic France. Our architectural tastes may not be to your liking but credit us at least with rather more than the crassness that you suggest by implying that we prefer our memorials to be within staggering distance of the Club Bar!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 5th Jul 2012 at 21:49.
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I must draw your attention to just ONE fact - there are many others!
That picture of Kiwi's in front of the memorial represents, collectively, hundreds of operations over Germany from which they came back. BUT.............each one of them was no doubt thinking of their comrades - ALL 55,573 of them, who didn't come back.
Remember too that EACH one who served in Bomber Command was a volunteer.
I WILL also add that I am of an age when we suffered the bombing of this country, some were very close! I well recall the annoucements on the radio that our bombers had been returning (with interest) what they were dishing out here. We in this country and many others owe a great debt to the RAF fighters and bombers for saving us from a fate worse than anything you could imagine.
That picture of Kiwi's in front of the memorial represents, collectively, hundreds of operations over Germany from which they came back. BUT.............each one of them was no doubt thinking of their comrades - ALL 55,573 of them, who didn't come back.
Remember too that EACH one who served in Bomber Command was a volunteer.
I WILL also add that I am of an age when we suffered the bombing of this country, some were very close! I well recall the annoucements on the radio that our bombers had been returning (with interest) what they were dishing out here. We in this country and many others owe a great debt to the RAF fighters and bombers for saving us from a fate worse than anything you could imagine.
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I have just watched tonight's ITV programme. I am fortunate enough to have met many wonderful RAF veterans at Project Propeller and am always impressed by their quiet dignity, wonderful sense of humour but also their humility - never a word about what they did but only too ready to spill the beans about their colleagues usually prefaced by something along the lines of "You see him (in one particular case a Squadron Leader with the DFM) you should know about him and what he did". There then follows the tale of the person's activities. All quietly proud of their achievements but never a hint of boasting. At the end of the programme each veteran contributor gave his name, rank, position in the crew and number of missions flown. I was absolutely stunned as the numbers increased as the list of contributors continued, surely, I thought as one Rear Gunner said he had flown on 48 missions but had been shot down on the 48th, surely there can't be anyone with a higher total. I was wrong, very, very wrong. The penultimate crew member was also a Rear Gunner with an amazing 80, yes, EIGHTY missions. His total was only surpassed by a pilot with 81. I have the highest respect and admiration for all of the crews. Thank you seems such a small thing to say but I mean it and I'll be back to help with PP next year having been ill and unable to do so this year. One day out of my life helping at PP is a tiny expression of my thanks for what they did.
PPP I believe the NZ Veterans were all flown over free of charge, in Club Class, by the NZ Government.
PPP I believe the NZ Veterans were all flown over free of charge, in Club Class, by the NZ Government.
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PPP I believe the NZ Veterans were all flown over free of charge, in Club Class, by the NZ Government.
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Our architectural tastes may not be to your liking but credit us at least with rather more than the crassness that you suggest by implying that we prefer our memorials to be within staggering distance of the Club Bar!
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Chug et al,
I am not disparaging the memory of those who were part of BC or the need for a memorial. I remind you that my father was a decorated member of BC and I have contributed to the funding of a memorial. All I am commenting on is the architectural significance and location of the memorial and my view is that it is too big and in the wrong place.
I am not disparaging the memory of those who were part of BC or the need for a memorial. I remind you that my father was a decorated member of BC and I have contributed to the funding of a memorial. All I am commenting on is the architectural significance and location of the memorial and my view is that it is too big and in the wrong place.
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Originally Posted by Bismark
All I am commenting on is the architectural significance and location of the memorial and my view is that it is too big and in the wrong place.
Bismark:
I would suggest that the location of the BC Memorial is more to do with those of other recent WWI/II Memorials located at Hyde Park Corner or nearby:
The Australian War Memorial, The New Zealand War Memorial and the Constitution Hill Memorial Gates (representing India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Africa and the Caribbean)
Given the high preponderance of Commonwealth personnel that served with Bomber Command, I cannot but think their close proximity to be very appropriate.
It would have been wonderful of course to have the centre of an entire London Square to place it, but a certain other Service got there first! Whether the Memorial gates and the BC Memorial were designed to exploit their parkland setting as well I leave to those better qualified than I. They work for me though, for what it's worth.
As to the Fighter Command Memorial, it shares the Embankment with the nearby Royal Air Force Memorial, both close to the old Air Ministry Building better known now as MOD Main Building. Both front the Thames, the obvious navigational feature for single seat fighters. Again as appropriate a site as any in London in my view.
Battle of Britain London Monument - Site for the Battle of Britain Monument
It seems it size was determined by Victorian railway engineers!
... location of the memorial and my view is that it is too big and in the wrong place.
The Australian War Memorial, The New Zealand War Memorial and the Constitution Hill Memorial Gates (representing India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Africa and the Caribbean)
Given the high preponderance of Commonwealth personnel that served with Bomber Command, I cannot but think their close proximity to be very appropriate.
It would have been wonderful of course to have the centre of an entire London Square to place it, but a certain other Service got there first! Whether the Memorial gates and the BC Memorial were designed to exploit their parkland setting as well I leave to those better qualified than I. They work for me though, for what it's worth.
As to the Fighter Command Memorial, it shares the Embankment with the nearby Royal Air Force Memorial, both close to the old Air Ministry Building better known now as MOD Main Building. Both front the Thames, the obvious navigational feature for single seat fighters. Again as appropriate a site as any in London in my view.
Battle of Britain London Monument - Site for the Battle of Britain Monument
A central London site was donated by Westminster City Council for the Monument. The site is based on an existing panelled granite structure 25 metres long. This structure was originally designed as a smoke outlet for underground trains when they were powered by steam engines. It had been filled up and blocked for many years.
From my MP:
My reply:
Contact your MP now at WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free
Make a fuss now and so save these courageous gentlemen needless worry.
PS Already posted on the "BBC snubs BC Memorial" thread as I got the two confused. No, honestly Mods, I really did!
Dear Chug,
Thank you for contacting me about the Bomber Command Memorial.
I welcomed Her Majesty the Queen's unveiling of this Memorial. It is a fitting tribute dedicated, as you note in your email, to the tens of thousands of brave airmen who died in the Second World War.
I understand from Treasury officials that the Government spent over £1.5 million on the event, including a Ministry of Defence contribution of resources at a cost of £375,000 to commemorate the 55,573 aircrew of RAF Bomber Command who paid the ultimate sacrifice during the Second World War.
After months of planning and support to the Bomber Command Association, six RAF aircraft and some 200 RAF personnel were involved on the day. This is in addition to the £1 million contribution to cover VAT and the £200,000 cash support promised by the Government towards the additional costs of the unveiling ceremony.
I believe it is right and proper that we recognise the unique contribution and sacrifice that the men of Bomber Command made to protect Great Britain during the Second World War and ensure democratic freedom.
As a final point, I would like to add my congratulations to those of the Secretary of State for Defence, who praised the volunteers that made this memorial a reality.
I am grateful for your taking the time to contact me and please never hesitate to get back in touch if I can be of any further assistance on this issue or any other.
Thank you for contacting me about the Bomber Command Memorial.
I welcomed Her Majesty the Queen's unveiling of this Memorial. It is a fitting tribute dedicated, as you note in your email, to the tens of thousands of brave airmen who died in the Second World War.
I understand from Treasury officials that the Government spent over £1.5 million on the event, including a Ministry of Defence contribution of resources at a cost of £375,000 to commemorate the 55,573 aircrew of RAF Bomber Command who paid the ultimate sacrifice during the Second World War.
After months of planning and support to the Bomber Command Association, six RAF aircraft and some 200 RAF personnel were involved on the day. This is in addition to the £1 million contribution to cover VAT and the £200,000 cash support promised by the Government towards the additional costs of the unveiling ceremony.
I believe it is right and proper that we recognise the unique contribution and sacrifice that the men of Bomber Command made to protect Great Britain during the Second World War and ensure democratic freedom.
As a final point, I would like to add my congratulations to those of the Secretary of State for Defence, who praised the volunteers that made this memorial a reality.
I am grateful for your taking the time to contact me and please never hesitate to get back in touch if I can be of any further assistance on this issue or any other.
Thank you for your prompt reply to my request that ALL the VAT charged for the Bomber Command Memorial and ALL the security costs involved in the Dedication ceremony, attended by HM The Queen, should be met by HMG. It is all very well for HM Treasury to quote large sums of public money they contend have already been expended to date, their inference seems to be that the Veterans should pay the very considerable difference.
Would the present government have had the same attitude had it been in power 1939-45? Would they have told these same men, then extremely young, that it had already expended a great amount on the munitions being dropped nightly on the Reich, and it was now up to the crews to pay up as well? I do not think that the contrast is so extreme, for both expenditures are the moral responsibility of HMG on behalf of this Nation, then fighting for survival, and now presumably grateful for having survived thanks to those who did not survive. HM Treasury may not have a sense of moral obligation, HMG I think should, for it governs in our name. It should refund ALL the VAT and pay for ALL the Security Costs of the Unveiling and Dedication of the Bomber Command Memorial now!
Yours sincerely,
Chug
Would the present government have had the same attitude had it been in power 1939-45? Would they have told these same men, then extremely young, that it had already expended a great amount on the munitions being dropped nightly on the Reich, and it was now up to the crews to pay up as well? I do not think that the contrast is so extreme, for both expenditures are the moral responsibility of HMG on behalf of this Nation, then fighting for survival, and now presumably grateful for having survived thanks to those who did not survive. HM Treasury may not have a sense of moral obligation, HMG I think should, for it governs in our name. It should refund ALL the VAT and pay for ALL the Security Costs of the Unveiling and Dedication of the Bomber Command Memorial now!
Yours sincerely,
Chug
Make a fuss now and so save these courageous gentlemen needless worry.
PS Already posted on the "BBC snubs BC Memorial" thread as I got the two confused. No, honestly Mods, I really did!
Last edited by Chugalug2; 7th Jul 2012 at 12:10. Reason: Message to Mods.
Went to look at the thing for myself today. The actual sculptures inside the building are a lovely piece of art and quite moving, and I believe quite appropriate in scale.
The building? A hideous monument that would be more fitting on the drive of a palatial Essex home with it's mock plastic Greek columns and portico, what were they thinking?
Compare and contrast to the simply stunning, in style, tone, feel and appearance, FAA statue outside Main Building facing the river.
The building? A hideous monument that would be more fitting on the drive of a palatial Essex home with it's mock plastic Greek columns and portico, what were they thinking?
Compare and contrast to the simply stunning, in style, tone, feel and appearance, FAA statue outside Main Building facing the river.
Last edited by pr00ne; 9th Jul 2012 at 21:37.
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Went to see the Memorial on Weds. I was surprised by the number of people viewing the Memorial and even more surprised by the number of crosses, wreaths, photos and cards that were on the Memorial.
That summed it up for me - the Memorial is there for a purpose and does that perfectly. It might not be everyone's idea of what a memorial should look like, it might be in a "suitable" location for everyone but it serves to remember "the 55,573 airmen from the United Kingdom, British Commonwealth & Allied Nations who served in RAF Bomber Command & lost their lives over the course of the Second War"
That summed it up for me - the Memorial is there for a purpose and does that perfectly. It might not be everyone's idea of what a memorial should look like, it might be in a "suitable" location for everyone but it serves to remember "the 55,573 airmen from the United Kingdom, British Commonwealth & Allied Nations who served in RAF Bomber Command & lost their lives over the course of the Second War"
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I think it looks stunning and plan to visit it at least once.
