Billions worth of equipment to be left in the Stan
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https://www.defesa.gov.br/arquivos/F...d2011/andy.pdf
Take a look at this presentation from ACDS (Log Ops), presented by Air Cdre Andy Gell last year on logistics transformation (I know, I know 'yawn'). Slides 21-28 are about Op BROCKDALE, the redeployment of materiel from Iraq in 2008/9. Slides 30-34 give a summary of the challenge in Afghanistan for those who have not been.
FED might have given us the worst case scenario from our last expedition there, but the point is well made, if a little sensationalist. The Force Protection burden would be huge. Op PIKE (the road convoys from Basra to Kuwait) was a challenge both in logistic and FP terms and it was a walk in the park compared to the similar task from Helmandshire to the Pakistan border. That is if the Pakistanis reopen the crossing point for us. The drive from there to the port at Karachi is no picnic either. Get a map and look at the other overland options - not pretty.
'Use AT' you say? - great idea. Whose? At what cost? Using whose fuel? Every gallon (diesel or avtur) is worth a fortune due to the effort to get it there. AT will be used to fly home the important, expensive stuff (like people, weapons and crypto; the last two having been stripped from the barely road-worthy UOR vehicles that are unsupportable back home).
Anything that gets left behind would have zero net book value once it got home or will have political value as a gift to GIRoA. Everything else will be needed back home or destroyed where it is and a new one bought in the UK, whichever costs the least. Rest assured that the National Audit Office will be all over this.
Take a look at this presentation from ACDS (Log Ops), presented by Air Cdre Andy Gell last year on logistics transformation (I know, I know 'yawn'). Slides 21-28 are about Op BROCKDALE, the redeployment of materiel from Iraq in 2008/9. Slides 30-34 give a summary of the challenge in Afghanistan for those who have not been.
FED might have given us the worst case scenario from our last expedition there, but the point is well made, if a little sensationalist. The Force Protection burden would be huge. Op PIKE (the road convoys from Basra to Kuwait) was a challenge both in logistic and FP terms and it was a walk in the park compared to the similar task from Helmandshire to the Pakistan border. That is if the Pakistanis reopen the crossing point for us. The drive from there to the port at Karachi is no picnic either. Get a map and look at the other overland options - not pretty.
'Use AT' you say? - great idea. Whose? At what cost? Using whose fuel? Every gallon (diesel or avtur) is worth a fortune due to the effort to get it there. AT will be used to fly home the important, expensive stuff (like people, weapons and crypto; the last two having been stripped from the barely road-worthy UOR vehicles that are unsupportable back home).
Anything that gets left behind would have zero net book value once it got home or will have political value as a gift to GIRoA. Everything else will be needed back home or destroyed where it is and a new one bought in the UK, whichever costs the least. Rest assured that the National Audit Office will be all over this.
Last edited by orgASMic; 14th May 2012 at 16:40.
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But there's another way to look at these vehicles, which I'll call the three baskets:
This leaves the Army with least waste, a plus up to the spare parts account from previous fiscal years' money, and a few usable items "gifted" to help with the diplomatic angle. Also, the scrap/salvage may well come in handy for local forces as they apply their ingenuity to using industrial grade scrap/salvage.
The post above is bang on
Nobody is saying that certain BER Equipment will not have to be left behind and yes some equipment will not be worth bringing back, this is common sence.
As the post above state we have 2 years to look at this and now is the time to start the logistic plan unless it is already in place. With a bit of forsight we could save Millions if not Billions of re-usable parts and equipment. We know we are coming out, how we come out will be a reflection on the Military.
Post like I dont give a rats arse about equipment is understandable when it come to loss of life, and no life should be put in danger to recover equipment, and most of this kit will end up at the main bases whare it should be safe to carry out any recovery.
On AT, unless it is mission crit equipment you would not put on AT, but over the next 2 year just how many flight will there be into theatre and any spare space needs to be filled on a slow programe of returns. In 2 years you will be suprised how much stuff will be shifted almost un-noticable to the main operation. More thats done now over 2 years will save lots of pain.
Dont get me wrong if the power that be stated that right chaps you have all got to be out next week thats a different ball game, but it not like that you know whats coming over a long period.
Yawn Yawn Logistics it a pain in the Arse we all know, but a pain in the Arse that will not go away.
- One of a kind mods for Afgh only: Grant to friendly government, in as is condition. (See contracts above for a negotiated package)
- Stuff inop: strip for spare parts, fly the spare parts out, leave the carcases for scrap/salvage. Aviation analogue: Hangar Queen / Parts Locker
- Common equipment for Brit Army: Ship/fly a few cherry one's out, (after first cannibalizing from basket 2) or, treat as item 2, but only harvest for hard to get or critical parts. Leave the rest for the locals to deal with / use as they see fit.
This leaves the Army with least waste, a plus up to the spare parts account from previous fiscal years' money, and a few usable items "gifted" to help with the diplomatic angle. Also, the scrap/salvage may well come in handy for local forces as they apply their ingenuity to using industrial grade scrap/salvage.
The post above is bang on
Nobody is saying that certain BER Equipment will not have to be left behind and yes some equipment will not be worth bringing back, this is common sence.
As the post above state we have 2 years to look at this and now is the time to start the logistic plan unless it is already in place. With a bit of forsight we could save Millions if not Billions of re-usable parts and equipment. We know we are coming out, how we come out will be a reflection on the Military.
Post like I dont give a rats arse about equipment is understandable when it come to loss of life, and no life should be put in danger to recover equipment, and most of this kit will end up at the main bases whare it should be safe to carry out any recovery.
On AT, unless it is mission crit equipment you would not put on AT, but over the next 2 year just how many flight will there be into theatre and any spare space needs to be filled on a slow programe of returns. In 2 years you will be suprised how much stuff will be shifted almost un-noticable to the main operation. More thats done now over 2 years will save lots of pain.
Dont get me wrong if the power that be stated that right chaps you have all got to be out next week thats a different ball game, but it not like that you know whats coming over a long period.
Yawn Yawn Logistics it a pain in the Arse we all know, but a pain in the Arse that will not go away.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Scafite, two points:
First plagarism. OK, you do refer indirectly to the orign of your quote but it would have been polite to attribute it and show it was a straight quote. You could either use " " or [quo te] [/quot e] (remove the spaces).
Secondly logistics is not a PITA. One reason the Dardanells campaign began as a fiasco was it started as a naval operation with the army planned to garrison the defeated Turks; it was not planned as an amphibious assault. The logisitcs organisation was completely wrong footed by both the plan and how it evolved.
I think we all know that without logisitics nothing else amounts to a string of beans - the aircraft that deploy without weapons and are wholly dependent of the in theatre supply of fuel and weapons - the troops that deploy with rations and equipment that they can carry which will last for bare days - the fleet without the train etc.
You argue that spare spares be returned to UK over the next 2 years. But a useable spare in theatre may be required tomorrow. You also suggest
but occupied space equals weight and weight equals fuel. To uplift a greater weight out of theatre more fuel will need to be trucked (or flown) in which in turn would reduce the inbound payload.
The wholly is a carefully balanced act that despite the lack of the right equipment (a different argument) seems to be a remarkably successful with water, fuel, food and ammunition being delivered in sufficient quantities.
Another aspect you have not touched is 'other nations' that will be facing a similar issue. The very tenuous exit corridors will, like the Berlin airlift, need full international cooperation and coordination.
First plagarism. OK, you do refer indirectly to the orign of your quote but it would have been polite to attribute it and show it was a straight quote. You could either use " " or [quo te] [/quot e] (remove the spaces).
Secondly logistics is not a PITA. One reason the Dardanells campaign began as a fiasco was it started as a naval operation with the army planned to garrison the defeated Turks; it was not planned as an amphibious assault. The logisitcs organisation was completely wrong footed by both the plan and how it evolved.
I think we all know that without logisitics nothing else amounts to a string of beans - the aircraft that deploy without weapons and are wholly dependent of the in theatre supply of fuel and weapons - the troops that deploy with rations and equipment that they can carry which will last for bare days - the fleet without the train etc.
You argue that spare spares be returned to UK over the next 2 years. But a useable spare in theatre may be required tomorrow. You also suggest
any spare space needs to be filled on a slow programe of returns.
The wholly is a carefully balanced act that despite the lack of the right equipment (a different argument) seems to be a remarkably successful with water, fuel, food and ammunition being delivered in sufficient quantities.
Another aspect you have not touched is 'other nations' that will be facing a similar issue. The very tenuous exit corridors will, like the Berlin airlift, need full international cooperation and coordination.
One final thought from me on the subject; SCAFITE (apt, BTW) - don't you think that this matter is being given a great deal of consideration by a large number of people as part of their everyday function? Now, pop that dust-coat onto its peg and pull the shutters down, would you.
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Sorry lonewolf 50 I hit the wrong button and was of course refering to your post which is one of the few post to look at the core of the problem other than we do not give a fook about our equipment and lets get out of here.
We have been out in theatre since 2001 and in numbers since 2006 and the whole of the service logisitc system as been cut back in that period. As far as the RAF Logisitcs goes possibly even worse, and when we talk about RAF logisitcs we dont just mean Stackers or Ex Stackers like me, we mean Chefs, MT Drivers, Movers and even the good folks who maintain and Fly the AT fleet who are in the bigger picture just cogs in a bigger service Logistic wheel.
Are we now going to pay the price of I dont give a toss about Yawn Yawn logistics in 2 years time.
If I have got folks backs up then I am sorry, but the services are faced with a huge problem bubbling away, sod all to do with me I stacked my last Blankets in late 2002 and now run my own small company with a logistics function running containers out of Hong Kong and China. If I get it wrong it just costs me money, if the service get it wrong it will cost a lot more.
In the end I did not print the report in the paper, I did not report this on TV, and as one poster put it the NAO will dance all over this when it come out in the wash.
I have edited this in responce to the last poster, Yes I have hung up my brown dust coat and pulled the shutters down see you all in two years.
We have been out in theatre since 2001 and in numbers since 2006 and the whole of the service logisitc system as been cut back in that period. As far as the RAF Logisitcs goes possibly even worse, and when we talk about RAF logisitcs we dont just mean Stackers or Ex Stackers like me, we mean Chefs, MT Drivers, Movers and even the good folks who maintain and Fly the AT fleet who are in the bigger picture just cogs in a bigger service Logistic wheel.
Are we now going to pay the price of I dont give a toss about Yawn Yawn logistics in 2 years time.
If I have got folks backs up then I am sorry, but the services are faced with a huge problem bubbling away, sod all to do with me I stacked my last Blankets in late 2002 and now run my own small company with a logistics function running containers out of Hong Kong and China. If I get it wrong it just costs me money, if the service get it wrong it will cost a lot more.
In the end I did not print the report in the paper, I did not report this on TV, and as one poster put it the NAO will dance all over this when it come out in the wash.
I have edited this in responce to the last poster, Yes I have hung up my brown dust coat and pulled the shutters down see you all in two years.
Last edited by SCAFITE; 15th May 2012 at 13:54.
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Scafite, it was not my post that you quoted but that of Lonewolf which underlines the need for proper quoting. You can still edit your earlier post and give proper attribution.
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I'm sure the BBC could have done it cheaper if it set its mind to it.
BBC News - How will Nato exit from Afghanistan?
Like, have a human being talking to a.. camera.
BBC News - How will Nato exit from Afghanistan?
Like, have a human being talking to a.. camera.
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There's a bunch of guys in the Kinloss area who are working their butts off to preserve Nimrod XV244, and MoD will not provide them with a simple power set.
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The last time this happened on a scale similar to this was in 1967 withdrawl from Aden when hundreds of Vehicles were left on the RAF runway and Bombed by the Fleet Air Arm to stop them falling in to the hands of the locals,
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Sell the stuff to civvy contractors who will remain out there after the departure of UK armed forces. The Chinese might like to use it. They have a fair number of mineral extraction projects ongoing. Or open a scrappy.
The Afghans had rather a lot of Soviet kit left over from the last time there was a mass exodus.
Final suggestion is to put all vehicles in to deep storage at Bastion & leave Bastion guarded by civvy contractors so that the equipment is ready for the next excursion in to Asia.
The Afghans had rather a lot of Soviet kit left over from the last time there was a mass exodus.
Final suggestion is to put all vehicles in to deep storage at Bastion & leave Bastion guarded by civvy contractors so that the equipment is ready for the next excursion in to Asia.
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Withdrawal from Aden 1967
"The last time this happened on a scale similar to this was in 1967 withdrawl from Aden"
I'm curious about that. Granted we left a load of junk behind, but the 84 Sqn Beverleys were flown all the way home (8 days in my case) to be scrapped at Bicester on arrival. And no, it wasn't to use the load carrying capacity as my aircraft had a cracked main spar and carried crew plus crew baggage and a limited fuel load, but no freight. We understood at the time it was to 'save face'!
Things have presumably changed, so bring home the troops and leave the heavy clapped out junk. (No need to tell them the oil has been drained out of the gearboxes and replaced with sand etc!)
I'm curious about that. Granted we left a load of junk behind, but the 84 Sqn Beverleys were flown all the way home (8 days in my case) to be scrapped at Bicester on arrival. And no, it wasn't to use the load carrying capacity as my aircraft had a cracked main spar and carried crew plus crew baggage and a limited fuel load, but no freight. We understood at the time it was to 'save face'!
Things have presumably changed, so bring home the troops and leave the heavy clapped out junk. (No need to tell them the oil has been drained out of the gearboxes and replaced with sand etc!)
My old AEO had just left the RAF and had joined the Aden Levies, as an officer. He was there at the pull out and he descibed how military, both Army and RAF were arriving at the airfield in vehicles and just handing him the keys. He selected a couple of the best for his own use and the rest were commandeered by his unit.
There was no mention of air strikes.
There was no mention of air strikes.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 19th May 2012 at 09:06.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
GrumpyGramps,
Saving face was the same reason the 'scrap' hastings was recovered from Egypt or the 'cat 4 or 5' Victor 1 was recovered from Butterworth.
In the latter case it was grounded and unflyable when the Victor 1 Det handed over to the Vulcan. There had been some problem and they had bodge taped the aircraft seals and left it. Some time later they opened the organ loft and found it full of fungus. A voluteer crew eventually flew it home. No idea if it was converted to a K1.
Saving face was the same reason the 'scrap' hastings was recovered from Egypt or the 'cat 4 or 5' Victor 1 was recovered from Butterworth.
In the latter case it was grounded and unflyable when the Victor 1 Det handed over to the Vulcan. There had been some problem and they had bodge taped the aircraft seals and left it. Some time later they opened the organ loft and found it full of fungus. A voluteer crew eventually flew it home. No idea if it was converted to a K1.
